At least 6 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

[Elixir]

The reality on the ground must be that police are routinely and effectively punished for infringing or attempting to infringe that right, or the right has no effective existence at all.

Exactly. When the cops do illegal stops and searches, it’s illegal. A crime. Lock’em up, right Derec? Even if those criminal cops don’t kill you, you’ll probably be delayed even more than if there was, say, a roadblock.
We don’t need to “defund the police”, we need to defund THOSE police, and double the salaries of the good ones with the money saved. Attract some goddam talent instead of arming and empowering thugs.

 

[Derec]

EVERYONE benefits when all are afforded equal rights, including equal access to educational opportunities, housing, jobs, etc.

Certainly true, but so-called "affirmative action" is the antithesis of "equal rights" and "equal access to [any] opportunities".

We aren't there yet. Unfortunately a few decades of half hearted, extremely resented attempts to correct a grave wrong have not yet erased or sufficiently mitigated the hundreds of years of slavery,

The problem with the last five decades was not that the attempts were half-hearted, but that they went in a fundamentally wrong direction. Instead of seeking a society where everybody is treated equally, these "attempts" as you call them focused on carving out special privileges for black people. That approach perpetuates racial divisions instead of healing them. These privileges include both institutional things like "affirmative action" (in education, employment and government contracts) and calls for reparations, as well as more insidious cultural rot like race-based speech codes and very one sided condemnation of so-called "cultural appropriation". The embrace by the mainstream left of black nationalism/extremism goes hand in hand with this "wrong turn at Albuquerque" our country took sometime in the late 60s.

the decades of Jim Crow, the so called War on Drugs designed, in part, to harm black Americans,

Jim Crow ended almost 60 years ago. A young black man who is 20 years old has parents who likely were not even born when it ended, much less remember it.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Slavery and Jim Crow were clear wrongs, but people alive today should not be punished or rewarded based on people who kinda-sorta looked like them did/endured in the past.

and other policies which are still alive and well.

For example? All race-specific polices these days benefit black people. "Affirmative action", sure, but also things like giving special funding status to so-called HBCUs.

 

[Toni]

EVERYONE benefits when all are afforded equal rights, including equal access to educational opportunities, housing, jobs, etc.

Certainly true, but so-called "affirmative action" is the antithesis of "equal rights" and "equal access to [any] opportunities".

We aren't there yet. Unfortunately a few decades of half hearted, extremely resented attempts to correct a grave wrong have not yet erased or sufficiently mitigated the hundreds of years of slavery,

The problem with the last five decades was not that the attempts were half-hearted, but that they went in a fundamentally wrong direction. Instead of seeking a society where everybody is treated equally, these "attempts" as you call them focused on carving out special privileges for black people. That approach perpetuates racial divisions instead of healing them. These privileges include both institutional things like "affirmative action" (in education, employment and government contracts) and calls for reparations, as well as more insidious cultural rot like race-based speech codes and very one sided condemnation of so-called "cultural appropriation". The embrace by the mainstream left of black nationalism/extremism goes hand in hand with this "wrong turn at Albuquerque" our country took sometime in the late 60s.

the decades of Jim Crow, the so called War on Drugs designed, in part, to harm black Americans,

Jim Crow ended almost 60 years ago. A young black man who is 20 years old has parents who likely were not even born when it ended, much less remember it.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Slavery and Jim Crow were clear wrongs, but people alive today should not be punished or rewarded based on people who kinda-sorta looked like them did/endured in the past.

and other policies which are still alive and well.

For example? All race-specific polices these days benefit black people. "Affirmative action", sure, but also things like giving special funding status to so-called HBCUs.

Unfortunately people are still judged as wanting because they are black. Or have a ‘foreign accent.’ Or practice a ‘funny’ religion. Or are gay or trans. Or female.

I know you don’t see it. But I’ve watched it, and have experienced my share. Way more recently that I wish.

 

[Derec]

I do not see you start threads about white shooters - only black ones.

That's because they are already started - often by Elixir. I lifted the "du jour" wording in the title from him. Of course, he did not feel the need to start a "du jour" thread about this shooting - I wonder why ...

Using your reasoning above, that means we are allowed to only talk about black mass shooters.

Not at all. I am just bringing some much-needed balance to this forum.

The court orders to stop over-crowding predate by a number of years any "defund" movement or "soft on crime" movements.

Those ideas long predate the pithy slogans of the #BLM insurrectionists.

The people of California have made their social preferences clear on this matter. Up to this point, they clearly do not wish to expend sufficient resources to keep all the people you want to keep in prison. Maybe they will change their minds. But until they do, they have chosen to live with these consequences.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

 

[Derec]

Unfortunately people are still judged as wanting because they are black. Or have a ‘foreign accent.’ Or practice a ‘funny’ religion. Or are gay or trans. Or female.
I know you don’t see it. But I’ve watched it, and have experienced my share. Way more recently that I wish.

You are conflating many issues here. "Funny" religion for example is unlike race in that the latter is an immutable happenstance of ancestry, while the former is a set of belief and practices, and a choice of each individual.
And all those traits you mention can be positive or negative. People can judge others as being less than because they are white. Or male. Or kafir. And trans-women in particular enjoy great advantages in competitive sports.

 

[Derec]

Nobody in their right mind advocates for the amount of incarcerations Derec wants.

I am by no means advocating for excessive sentencing. But those convicted of serious and especially violent crimes should serve their sentences and not be released early just because California can't - despite its high tax burden - keep its prisons adequately funded.

It’s his “solution” to every crime there is (except his hobbyhorse). I’ve stopped paying attention to his broken record.

When you release violent/gun criminals early, you get what happened in the OP. On the other hand, there is no logical or rational reason to criminalize what you dismissively call my "hobbyhorse" (although it does involve riding, giddy up!)

 

[Derec]

But it doesn't work.

Nobody is claiming it works perfectly. But it works far better than the "abolish prisons" nonsense far left is peddling.
What is your solution to crime - particularly violent crimes? Kumbaya?
What about burglars and thieves? Just let them go?

 

[Derec]

Unconcerned that a young man was shot and killed, yet fit to be tied because a road was blocked.
That's par for this course. After all, blocking roads is a form of
View attachment 38153

What are you talking about here even? And as I recall people on this forum were against blocking roads when it was a bunch of right wing truckers who were doing it. But when it was #BLMers who did so they were much more supporting.
I say pox on both their houses!

 

[bilby]

But it doesn't work.

Nobody is claiming it works perfectly.

"It" being hanging all criminals? I should hope not.

But it works far better than the "abolish prisons" nonsense far left is peddling.
What is your solution to crime - particularly violent crimes? Kumbaya?
What about burglars and thieves? Just let them go?

The Norwegian and Icelandic models seem to be very effective.

Certainly it's better to just let criminals go than it is to hang or incarcerate the entire human race. Which is the "It" whose context you both snipped and, apparently, totally failed to understand.

 

[Derec]

Again, police can only initiate a stop if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime or moving violation has been committed. Based on the PD policy at that time, the police were instructed to NOT pull people over for minor violations, like an expired tag.

First of all, policy is not the same as a law. Second, what is the exact wording of the policy? That it's not allowed to pull them over and check license, insurance and warrants, or is it just against the policy to issue tickets for expired tags? Third, St. Daunte was also observed making an illegal turn.

This policy makes sense, given that covid-19 spreads through human contact, and that the DMV at the time could not keep up with license/tag renewals and new applications due to impacts of said pandemic. The police pulled Wright over for an expired plate, not an illegal air freshener (which was discovered during the stop), or an illegal turn (not part of any official police record I could find, including statements by the police chief).

You would be wrong, as usual.

Luckey testified Wednesday that he pulled over Wright after he noticed Wright’s blinker signaling a right turn even though he was in the left turning lane. Luckey said he also noticed an air freshener hanging from the rearview mirror — which is technically illegal — and that the car’s registration tab was expired.

Kimberly Potter’s former supervisor says it was legal for her to fire gun at Daunte Wright

Therefore, the police violated their department's policy by pulling Wright over, likely because the police in the Twin Cities area have a documented history of racial profiling and were acting in this capacity.

Assertion without evidence. There is zero evidence Wright was pulled over because he was black.

Irrelevant. You are not the police chief or an elected official in the Twin Cities area who has the authority to make policy.

Relevant. This is a political discussion forum. We discuss political issues here. Including policies enacted by elected officials.

You are making up shit.

Isn't it against the rules to accuse fellow posters of lying?

Nonsense. Pulling people over for expired plates does not make anyone safer. You are full of shit.

The only one full of shit is you.
Pulling people over allows police to catch those who drive without driver's license, without insurance and those who have warrants. St. Daunte was three for three. Are you really going to argue that taking people without license or without insurance does not make the roads safer? Or that arresting people with arrest warrants isn't making us safer?

I don't know what Wright was thinking at the time of the illegal detainment.

[Citation needed] that the stop in question is considered "illegal detainment" under Minnesota Law.

Given the history of discrimination, violence and even murder that the Twin Cities PD is known for,

He wasn't stopped by "Twin Cities PD". Even if he was, you are arguing for guilt by association.

I would not have been surprised if he were scared for his life at being accosted and arrested by the police.

And therefore he decided to escalate the situation, making it many orders of magnitude more dangerous for himself? What kind of sense does that make? Had Wright allowed police to arrest him, he'd be in jail but alive and well.

Mr Wright's warrant was apparently related to a $346 fine for a non-appearance in a cannabis and disorderly conduct related trial.

No. A gun case he caught while on bail for an armed robbery (he and an accomplice held a woman at gunpoint and tried to take her rent money). Where did you get the cannabis nonsense from anyway?

Not a huge deal in the big picture, and not one most people would have been trying to run from. And also not something that would suggest that Mr Wright posed a threat to anyone in the community.

Again, it was for guns. Which is why the digression is even somewhat relevant in this thread .

Did Mr Wright have a lawful license to drive? If yes, he posed no threat to the motoring public by driving without a piece of plastic on him.

Good point, or at least it would be if that's what it was. Do you have any information suggesting that he was a licensed driver in good standing and only did not have the actual license in his possession? Or are you just speculating.

And it is also completely irrelevant to the police violating their own policy and killing a human in a moment of racially biased prejudice (the fear of the young black man). You are only bringing this up in an attempt to divert our attention from the facts.

There is zero evidence that the shooting resulted from "racially biased prejudice" rather than a tragic mistake.

Mr Wright died because a white police officer was so terrorised at the thought of a young black man with a cannabis charge related warrant running free that she recklessly shot him with a jacketed hollow point.

What is the relevance of the officer being white? Other than your own racial prejudices, of course.
What is the relevance of the type of bullet she fired? Presumably the bullets are standard department issue.
And again, you are dead wrong on the nature of the warrant.

Those are the facts and there is no other explanation that fits the scenario.

You are very misinformed. Mistakes happen.

The thing we should be talking about is why she felt so terrified and overwhelmed that her 26 years of training and experience went out the window. Why is white America so scared of young black men that we keep killing them on the streets for no good reason?

Why are you trying to make everything about race? Many white people get shot by police too, you know.

All your posts over the years speak to the contrary.

BULLSHIT!

You are not outraged that a young man was shot and killed by an incompetent police officer who was violating her department's policy, all over a fucking expired tag.

Not to mention a gun warrant while on bail . You are right that I am not much outraged about this. I do not think Daunte Wright deserved to die, but he was a bad guy and he decided to increase chances of things going south by running. People make mistakes. Even seasoned professionals.
This is not a racial issue for me. I would not be outraged if it was a case of a white criminal getting shot under similar circumstances.
What would be different is that the case would not have generated national headlines. The black nationalist attorney general would not personally insert himself into the case to upgrade charges.

You are continuously outraged that people protesting such acts of killing sometimes block roads as a form of protest.

Blocking roads and highways, not to mention bridges or public transit, are unacceptable forms of protest, no matter your cause. As is occupying territory and declaring "autonomous zones".

[removed]

 

[Derec]

It might well be easy for you to refuse to permit an unlawful search of your vehicle. For a young black man, such refusal is a life threatening risk. Which is the whole point.

[citation needed] For example, Wright wasn't shot because he refused consent to a search of their vehicle. Neither was St. Patrick Lyoya. He fought with the police officer and grabbed his taser.

It's not sufficient to say that you have the right not to be stopped and searched without cause; The reality on the ground must be that police are routinely and effectively punished for infringing or attempting to infringe that right, or the right has no effective existence at all.

You have not shown that this happens with any regularity. It certainly wasn't part of the Daunte Wright stop, and you brought it up in that context.

 

[Derec]

Exactly. When the cops do illegal stops and searches, it’s illegal. A crime. Lock’em up, right Derec? Even if those criminal cops don’t kill you, you’ll probably be delayed even more than if there was, say, a roadblock.

If police officers commit a criminal act they should be prosecuted for it. However, those roadblocks that you are so in favor of (when you agree with the idiots doing it at least) last hours. Let's not trivialize them!

 

[Derec]

"It" being hanging all criminals? I should hope not.

No. Imprisoning felons - especially violent ones. Jailing people for violent or otherwise serious misdemeanors. Less serious stuff can be handled with community service and such.

The Norwegian and Icelandic models seem to be very effective.

Even they have jails and prisons. Anders Breivik wasn't given a stern talking to and told not to be naughty in the future. He also wasn't given money to incentivize him not to do it again (you advocated for such payments in an older thread I recall).

That said, these Nordic countries are nutty in their own way. In Iceland, for example, it is illegal to take off your clothes for money.

Certainly it's better to just let criminals go than it is to hang or incarcerate the entire human race. Which is the "It" whose context you both snipped and, apparently, totally failed to understand.

Nobody is advocating any of these things. You may like erecting and knocking down strawmen, but the rest of us do not want to join you.

 

[Elixir]

However, those roadblocks that you are so in favor of

Have fun railing against that figment of your imagination. Not deeming blocking a road to be a capital offense certainly does not mean a person “favors” roadblocks. Your ability to construct strawmen is indeed impressive, as it needs to be since it’s your stock response to anything you are unable to address.

In Iceland, for example, it is illegal to take off your clothes for money

You should start a(nother) thread specifically for exercising your hobbyhorse.

 

[Elixir]

I am by no means advocating for excessive sentencing

Yes you are.

That is insulting!

Call the Waaaambulance.
Reality strikes… atrib is by no means alone in that opinion.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately people are still judged as wanting because they are black. Or have a ‘foreign accent.’ Or practice a ‘funny’ religion. Or are gay or trans. Or female.
I know you don’t see it. But I’ve watched it, and have experienced my share. Way more recently that I wish.

You are conflating many issues here. "Funny" religion for example is unlike race in that the latter is an immutable happenstance of ancestry, while the former is a set of belief and practices, and a choice of each individual.
And all those traits you mention can be positive or negative. People can judge others as being less than because they are white. Or male. Or kafir. And trans-women in particular enjoy great advantages in competitive sports.

Those 'funny' religions I was most thinking of are Islam and Judaism. Regardless of whether or not you are a practicing Muslim or practicing Jew, you are assumed all sorts of things by some people. Sikh would fall into that as well. Even if you are say, a Christian of Egyptian or Lebanese extraction, you are assumed to be Muslim, and just itching to overturn good Christian USA and institute Sharia law, for example. We're all aware of nasty stereotypes against Jews, which are less now than they used to be but still very much exist.

 

[Derec]

Have fun railing against that figment of your imagination. Not deeming blocking a road to be a capital offense certainly does not mean a person “favors” roadblocks. Your ability to construct strawmen is indeed impressive, as it needs to be since it’s your stock response to anything you are unable to address.

We debated the #BLM tactic to blockade highways, bridges etc. in many threads. For example, here and here. Many lefty posters have defended such tactics - by only by left-wing activists.

You should start a(nother) thread specifically for exercising your hobbyhorse.

It was Bilby who brought up Iceland, as some sort of example regarding their legal system.

 

[Derec]

Yes you are.

You are wrong. As usual.

Reality strikes… atrib is by no means alone in that opinion.

Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one. But neither you nor atrib are well anchored in reality.

 

[Derec]

Those 'funny' religions I was most thinking of are Islam and Judaism.

Hence my use of "kafir". That's the Islamic term for non-Muslims. My point was that such judgments can go both ways.

 

[Derec]

The risk/benefit is not spread out evenly across the US nor across a region or a state or a city, for that matter. The US is generally more segregated now compared with 50-60 years ago.

Citation needed.
[typical Toni anecdote of her standing up to some evil cis hetero white male snipped]