At least 8 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

[Shadowy Man]

You have failed to establish that "If they didn't intend harm they wouldn't be coming up there", and handwaving it isn't convincing at all.

You are also engaging in mind-reading (of a hypothetical person, no less) when you say "...knowing there was someone up there who didn't want them there".

How do they know? How do you know that they know?

It's all more than a bit tenuous as a motive for premeditated murder.

How they know? Ignoring a warning!

How do you know they even heard your "warning"?

Have you never misheard or missed entirely something shouted at you from a different room or floor of the house?

Bear in mind, your plan is to deploy lethal force here. The standard required of you is rather higher than when you are just wanting your wife to bring you something from downstairs on her way up. The consequence of being unheard or misunderstood is pretty severe; You become a murderer, and someone else dies.

Being most probably right, isn't adequate, when the consequences of being wrong include death.

I think he is suggesting that if someone enters his home uninvited they have forfeited their right to life. Just like how those who threaten or disobey the police do.

But maybe I’m misreading his posts.

 

[Gospel]

I'll blame both sides here.

What are you blaming the dead guy for?
Exactly.
I'm not seeing it.
Tom

Answering the door with a gun.

He went towards danger (as evidenced by his picking up the gun, he considered what was outside dangerous) without adequate reason.

Someone showed up unexpectedly, claimed to be the police, hid, and when he opened the door they shot him.

I see no way to pin any blaim on the dead guy.
Tom

I'm blaming both. Guy did something stupid, system did something stupid illegal.

FTFY

 

[laughing dog]

Thank you for pointing that out. I think I am responding to the wrong post or thread. My post was with reference to the thread where a police officer had shot a serviceman to death simply because he answered the door with a gun in his hand. And Loren Pechtel was defending the actions of the officer as justified. I will find that thread and repost. Apologies for my mistake.

We have discussed it in this thread also (for some reason) but also in the "Police misconduct" thread.
And Loren's position was (I think) the same as mine: the deputy acted too hastily to shoot, but at the same time Fortson acted stupidly to answer the door for police with an unholstered gun.
More than one person can make a mistake in a situation. In fact, tragic cases like this often involve fuckups by more than one person. It was three in this case actually, since the apartment manager have the deputy the wrong apartment number to begin with.

Exactly. Both fucked up.

It's just I feel the police mistake is mostly a system problem rather than an individual problem. I won't fault him for doing what his department said, but I will severely fault that department for setting up a situation where such mistakes are likely.

Apparently in your view, the acceptable penalty for a “fuck up” fin this situation is death, so why are you offering apologia for the other “ fuck up” who fucked up more?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Thank you for pointing that out. I think I am responding to the wrong post or thread. My post was with reference to the thread where a police officer had shot a serviceman to death simply because he answered the door with a gun in his hand. And Loren Pechtel was defending the actions of the officer as justified. I will find that thread and repost. Apologies for my mistake.

We have discussed it in this thread also (for some reason) but also in the "Police misconduct" thread.
And Loren's position was (I think) the same as mine: the deputy acted too hastily to shoot, but at the same time Fortson acted stupidly to answer the door for police with an unholstered gun.
More than one person can make a mistake in a situation. In fact, tragic cases like this often involve fuckups by more than one person. It was three in this case actually, since the apartment manager have the deputy the wrong apartment number to begin with.

Exactly. Both fucked up.

It's just I feel the police mistake is mostly a system problem rather than an individual problem. I won't fault him for doing what his department said, but I will severely fault that department for setting up a situation where such mistakes are likely.

Apparently in your view, the acceptable penalty for a “fuck up” fin this situation is death, so why are you offering apologia for the other “ fuck up” who fucked up more?

If the cop had been shot to death for his fuck-up, do you think the outcome would be similar?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I try to avoid learning too much about such tragedies, so I will just ask.
Wasn't the cop sent on a potentially dangerous assignment, and someone gave him the wrong address?

If so, both the cop and the victim had very good reasons to mistrust whoever was on the other side of the door.

I don't know what happened or why for certain, but if that's true it all becomes more understandable.
Tom

IIRC it was a noise complaint.

The problem is that the guy acted almost the same as a bad guy would have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thank you for pointing that out. I think I am responding to the wrong post or thread. My post was with reference to the thread where a police officer had shot a serviceman to death simply because he answered the door with a gun in his hand. And Loren Pechtel was defending the actions of the officer as justified. I will find that thread and repost. Apologies for my mistake.

We have discussed it in this thread also (for some reason) but also in the "Police misconduct" thread.
And Loren's position was (I think) the same as mine: the deputy acted too hastily to shoot, but at the same time Fortson acted stupidly to answer the door for police with an unholstered gun.
More than one person can make a mistake in a situation. In fact, tragic cases like this often involve fuckups by more than one person. It was three in this case actually, since the apartment manager have the deputy the wrong apartment number to begin with.

Exactly. Both fucked up.

It's just I feel the police mistake is mostly a system problem rather than an individual problem. I won't fault him for doing what his department said, but I will severely fault that department for setting up a situation where such mistakes are likely.

Apparently in your view, the acceptable penalty for a “fuck up” fin this situation is death, so why are you offering apologia for the other “ fuck up” who fucked up more?

If the cop had been shot to death for his fuck-up, do you think the outcome would be similar?

No, because the guy inside could clearly see the situation at that point. Firing on a cop for banging on your door isn't justified.