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Attention: "alt right" is no longer politically correct

Notwithstanding the fact that there are elites within the white population, white privilege is not a myth. The statistics prove it. Check income rates, arrest rates, incarceration rates, home owner rates and so on.
Reality: Those things are socioeconomic status, not race. Something the racism-"researchers" consistently fail to do is check if race is a merely a proxy variable for socioeconomic status. Strangely enough, those who actually do this obvious check come to a very different conclusion--the supposed racism vanishes. White, black or polka-dot makes no difference.
Orly? Let's have a look at a couple of examples then, shall we?

Hourly pay
Black Americans - $18.49
White Americans - $25.22

Student debt
Black Americans - $52,726
White Americans - $28,006

Home ownership rate
Black Americans - 41.3%
White Americans - 71.9%

Infant deaths/1000 births
Black Americans - 11.1
White Americans - 5.1
 
My understanding is that most were sex workers in sparsely populated areas. In such a situation it basically comes down to did the killer make a mistake. You look at the scene for any forensic evidence that points to the killer, if you don't find anything all you can do is hope you get lucky next time. The bodies are dumped far from civilization, by the time they are found (if they're found at all) there's no useful evidence.

You can bemoan the state of affairs but there's not really much that can be done. Streetwalking is inherently risky.

There's plenty that can be done. For starters, you can investigate their murders and disappearances as though their lives mattered!

You can sort out the prostitutes from those whose disappearance is unrelated to that kind of work. You can identify their close associates. You can look for connections like "did they hang out with the same group of people", or "did they buy things from the same convenience store?", or "were they seen on the company of a particular truck driver?".

If your invrstigation reveals that natives have limited access to safe, reliable transportation, then you can work to improve that. If it indicates native communities are underserved by the police, then dispatch more police to the communities in need. If your investigation indicates coroners and cops are too quick to label deaths accidental, then go back through those cases and make sure the new investigative team exercises due diligence. But ffs don't just say "well, we can't focus our attention on native women because that's not fair to white guys".

The article I linked to put the number of missing and murdered native women in Canada over the last 4 decades at about 1200. Activists suspect the number is closer to 4000, perhaps even higher. That is a huge issue, especially considering native women only account for about 4% of the total population. It means they might be 50% of murder victims. But you can't do a damn thing about it unless you are willing to address the dangers faced by native women and ignore the cries of "racism!" and "sexism!" coming from people who, for some reason, think that if you concentrate your efforts on helping a particular demographic it automatically means you're trying to screw over the other ones.

What you are suggesting is the perfect way for whites to lock in their privilege. Generations of whites engaged in theft of land and resources from non-whites and built a political system that heavily favors them. Now you want to block any attempt at redress that relies on identifying the communities that have suffered and will only entertain compensation of individuals, as if it's possible to compensate someone for being taken from their families as a young child, or never given a decent chance at a promotion at work, or not being able to vote because racists kept them away from the polls, or having toxic waste dumped in their neighborhood because they had no way to prevent it, or not being able to feed their kids properly because every attempt to supplement their income was criminalized. And that doesn't even begin to address compensation for the kids who grew up hungry in a neighborhood tainted with toxic waste and ignored by local government unless it decided to take their parents' property through Eminent Domain to build a business park or something.

You're missing the point--you're trying to take (without reason: thus steal) from those who did no wrong and give it to those who were not wronged. You're trying to throw gas on the fire of racial hatred. You're playing right into the hands of the KKK and alt-right.

I think you're the one missing the point.

The goal here is to improve society by increasing fairness and justice, and ensuring that all persons have equal opportunities to prosper. That is not a zero-sum game. One person's opportunity doesn't comes at the expense of another's. It's a 'rising tide lifts all boats' kind of thing. Increasing fairness and social justice is good for everyone. Sure, a privileged few might lose their privileged position but that's not being unfair to them, it's eliminating unfairness.

Good grief. "White Privilege" is our contemporary Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Create some myth that a whole racial group of people are schemers and liars and that their success and the success of their children is due to this scheming any lying. Never mind that there are many of members of that group who do not share in this success; what counts is that the myth gives license to racists and bigots to behave badly towards all members of this group. And this group deserves that ill treatment because the myth says they are all schemers and liars.

That is the strangest definition of White Privilege I've ever seen. I suspect it's one you made up yourself.

The definition I use is the standard one of societal privileges given to whites and withheld from non-whites in Western societies. I am a beneficiary of white privilege, and so are most people I know.

My father went to a better school than the black kids in his town. When he went into the Navy during WWII he was given training denied to black sailors right up until the end of the war when the Roosevelt Administration started the desegregation of the Armed Forces. When my dad went to college on the GI Bill he was admitted to a highly regarded college that did not accept black students. When he graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering he got a job at GE and was put on the managerial career path - something else denied blacks at that time. By the time I came along my family lived in a nice neighborhood with a good school system and I benefitted hugely from that.

Black kids in families from my dad's hometown didn't get the same chances, not because their fathers were less competent than my dad, but because they didn't get the same opportunities to succeed. Doors to advancement that were open to my father, an immigrant's son, were closed to them despite their American heritage. That's how white privilege works.

You're talking about things in the distant past. The people going to school now aren't suffering because of what happened then. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution!

It's not distant past. It's my current, ongoing life situation. I have benefitted hugely from white privilege. So did my parents. So did their parents. So does my offspring, and most likely so will any grandchildren.

I think a lot of whites can't see how they have benefitted because to them, their privileged position is just 'the way things are'. They can't imagine what their lives would have been like if their parents had been black or Hispanic or Native. But it's pretty obvious their lives would have been impacted, perhaps severely, and they know it. They know that if they were treated no better than blacks or Hispanics or Filipinos they wouldn't have all the social advantages that come with being white.

No individual is responsible for the deeds of their ancestor, but it cannot be denied that past a social strata had effects on other social strata that reverberate to this day. Forget about guilt, just deserts and whatever else occurs to your individualist mindset. Focus on social iniquities that need to be addressed. It cannot be done by leaving each and every individual to their own devices. That way serves only to preserve the status quo.

Exactly. Help the disadvantaged. Their skin color doesn't matter.

You can't help the disadvantaged if you can't identify them or understand the factors that cause them to be disadvantaged.
 
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Isn't converting the money to luxury consumption a form of putting it into the economy? Somebody needs to produce those luxury goods and services. It will probably mean some jobs, no? I see that as better than hording it through generations.

It's in the economy already--just as investment rather than as consumer spending.

And note that luxury consumption tends to involve a lot of foreign purchases.

I'm not terribly concerned with the foreign aspect. We could move to change that, and even if we don't, at least it means money is changing hands meaning taxation and likely job creation somewhere. I don't pretend to be an economist, but money moving is better than money being horded by the rich, isn't it? And more importantly, the money can be taken from the deceased and used to fund the social programs we need.
 
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That is certainly a "liberal" position.
 
Let's have a look[/URL] at a couple of examples then, shall we?

Hourly pay
Black Americans - $18.49
White Americans - $25.22

Student debt
Black Americans - $52,726
White Americans - $28,006

Home ownership rate
Black Americans - 41.3%
White Americans - 71.9%

Infant deaths/1000 births
Black Americans - 11.1
White Americans - 5.1

I am curious what you think this proves? Loren said socioeconomic status is what's causing it. If race and socioeconomic status is highly correlated, and we know it is, then that could indeed explain it, and these stats don't touch on that one way or the other.
 
Let's have a look at a couple of examples then, shall we?

Hourly pay
Black Americans - $18.49
White Americans - $25.22

Student debt
Black Americans - $52,726
White Americans - $28,006

Home ownership rate
Black Americans - 41.3%
White Americans - 71.9%

Infant deaths/1000 births
Black Americans - 11.1
White Americans - 5.1

I am curious what you think this proves? Loren said socioeconomic status is what's causing it. If race and socioeconomic status is highly correlated, and we know it is, then that could indeed explain it, and these stats don't touch on that one way or the other.
It's evidence that race itself has an impact on socioeconomic status. The above stats are of all blacks and all whites - regardless of socioeconomic status. Ignoring race, as far as blacks are concerned, is not going to fix their problems then, is it?

You can't fix racial discrimination on an individual basis. How would you go about it, for instance, when confronted with job applicants being discriminated against on account of being black?
 
You're missing the point--you're trying to take (without reason: thus steal) from those who did no wrong and give it to those who were not wronged. You're trying to throw gas on the fire of racial hatred. You're playing right into the hands of the KKK and alt-right.

I think you're the one missing the point.

The goal here is to improve society by increasing fairness and justice, and ensuring that all persons have equal opportunities to prosper.

You did not appear to be advocating for that above. You appeared to be advocating for equal numbers between groups at the expense of fairness and justice to individuals and ensuring all persons have equal opportunities. Opportunities are not equal when you discriminate based on race instead of merit. Opportunities are not equal when you elevate some who don't need it because you affiliate them with your disadvantaged group and not others who do need it because they don't. That isn't justice. That is injustice. That is racism, and it creates foundation for racism in the other direction. Fair would be if we all started on equal footing regardless of race. Getting there means boosting up everyone who needs it regardless of race. It means universal basic income, universal health care, free education, etc. You are never going to reach a post-racial society if you obsess over race.

Increasing fairness and social justice is good for everyone. Sure, a privileged few might lose their privileged position but that's not being unfair to them, it's eliminating unfairness.

But you don't appear to be advocating for increasing fairness and social justice for everyone. You appear to pushing for race based policies. In a few generations, given increased social support to level the economic playing field, such as eliminating inheritance and ensuring universal basic income and education for all, those in privileged positions will be far more likely to deserve them.

It's not distant past. It's my current, ongoing life situation. I have benefitted hugely from white privilege. So did my parents. So did their parents. So does my offspring, and most likely so will any grandchildren.

What perks do you think you got in life because you are white that I as a non-white person did not get because I am not white? How about than a middle upper class black guy? Remember that you are not your father, so what happened with him is irrelevant. I'm guessing we grew up in conditions more similar to each other than any of us had similar to the homeless, abused, or those from broken homes. Where you did have an advantage over me or him due to our respective races, that's racism and it should be undone. But here you are advocating for creating more of it and turning the three of us against one another.

They know that if they were treated no better than blacks or Hispanics or Filipinos they wouldn't have all the social advantages that come with being white.

Be specific, and lets undo those advantages. Name a specific racist policy or specific racist action a person has taken, and lets deal with them harshly. And for you not to be a hypocrite about it, lets not let the race of the person doing it or the race of the person it is done to dictate our passion and conviction in dealing with it. And lets not create more of it.
 
I am curious what you think this proves? Loren said socioeconomic status is what's causing it. If race and socioeconomic status is highly correlated, and we know it is, then that could indeed explain it, and these stats don't touch on that one way or the other.
It's evidence that race itself has an impact on socioeconomic status.

Has or had? Those numbers don't tell the story either way. Are these numbers caused by horrible racist policies today, or by a lack of socioeconomic mobility and a holdover from history?

Ignoring race, as far as blacks are concerned, is not going to fix their problems then, is it?

Neither will pushing race fix the problem. The social economic measures I proposed above may though.

You can't fix racial discrimination on an individual basis.

You can make some headway. You also need to create more overall transparency and empathy between people of different races, the opposite of what I've been reading people call for above.

You can't fix racial discrimination by discriminating based on race. You can only make it worse.

How would you go about it, for instance, when confronted with job applicants being discriminated against on account of being black?

By identifying cases of it clearly happening to individuals and hammering down on those guilty of it, publicly, and making it clear that is is not acceptable to hire based on race. Again, the opposite of what we've seen advocated above.
 
You did not appear to be advocating for that above. You appeared to be advocating for equal numbers between groups at the expense of fairness and justice to individuals and ensuring all persons have equal opportunities.

Really?

In my very first sentence in my very first post in this thread I said:

People should be treated as individuals when that is the most efficient and effective way to improve social justice, fairness, and equality of opportunity. But if treating them as members of a group is more efficient and effective, then that is what should happen.

I'm not advocating equal numbers between groups. I'm not advocating only using group identity to address social issues. The goal is fairness and justice for all. Treating people as individuals is good when it serves that purpose; treating them as members of a group is also good when it serves that purpose.

Jolly_Penguin said:
Opportunities are not equal when you discriminate based on race instead of merit. Opportunities are not equal when you elevate some who don't need it because you affiliate them with your disadvantaged group and not others who do need it because they don't. That isn't justice. That is injustice. That is racism, and it creates foundation for racism in the other direction. Fair would be if we all started on equal footing regardless of race. Getting there means boosting up everyone who needs it regardless of race. It means universal basic income, universal health care, free education, etc. You are never going to reach a post-racial society if you obsess over race.

Who here besides you and Loren is talking about providing opportunities to those who don't need them? Ensuring that all persons have equal opportunities to prosper doesn't mean assigning opportunities to people. How would that work? "Here you go George, here's your assigned opportunity to be an assistant manager at McDonalds. What's that, you already have an opportunity to be a stockbroker? Well, you have to take this one. No returns."

And who here is obsessing over race? Hyperbole doesn't making your argument stronger, it makes it look like it's stuffed with straw.

Increasing fairness and social justice is good for everyone. Sure, a privileged few might lose their privileged position but that's not being unfair to them, it's eliminating unfairness.

But you don't appear to be advocating for increasing fairness and social justice for everyone. You appear to pushing for race based policies. In a few generations, given increased social support to level the economic playing field, such as eliminating inheritance and ensuring universal basic income and education for all, those in privileged positions will be far more likely to deserve them.

I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. But just so we understand each other, I am not in favor of racism for the sake of racism. I am in favor of identifying problems in my society that negatively impact justice and fairness. I am in favor of addressing those problems efficiently and effectively. I am not in favor of refusing to discuss issues just because I'd have to use terms someone else might not want to hear.

It's not distant past. It's my current, ongoing life situation. I have benefitted hugely from white privilege. So did my parents. So did their parents. So does my offspring, and most likely so will any grandchildren.

What perks do you think you got in life because you are white that I as a non-white person did not get because I am not white?

I don't know you well enough to say. But I didn't need a police escort when I was six years old just so I could go to the same school as the white kids. I didn't have my pregnancy related health issues taken less seriously or treated less carefully than my white co-worker's. I'm not 10x more likely to be murdered on the Alaska Highway in Yukon and BC than a white tourist, even though I've probably been on that stretch of road 10x more often.

How about than a middle upper class black guy? Remember that you are not your father, so what happened with him is irrelevant. I'm guessing we grew up in conditions more similar to each other than any of us had similar to the homeless, abused, or those from broken homes. Where you did have an advantage over me or him due to our respective races, that's racism and it should be undone. But here you are advocating for creating more of it and turning the three of us against one another.

They know that if they were treated no better than blacks or Hispanics or Filipinos they wouldn't have all the social advantages that come with being white.

Be specific, and lets undo those advantages. Name a specific racist policy or specific racist action a person has taken, and lets deal with them harshly. And for you not to be a hypocrite about it, lets not let the race of the person doing it or the race of the person it is done to dictate our passion and conviction in dealing with it. And lets not create more of it.

So your suggestion for dealing with racism is to punish the guy in the local State of Alaska tradesman shop for not allowing the mixed race Native/black kid the HR department sent over to work a half day before dismissing him. And then do it to his subordinate when the subordinate refuses to have a black guy in the shop. And then do it again when the next in line proves to be just as much of a racist (true example btw; I know these guys). But we can't talk about decades of institutional racism in the State of Alaska workforce because that would be racist? We can't push for equality of opportunity for qualified candidates? We just have to play whack-a-mole with the worst of the racists and wait for a benevolent deity to reformulate our entire economic system without anyone suffering anything bad, huh?

No, thanks. I'll fight for social justice using whatever means are most likely to produce the desired results and least likely to cause suffering. And, as much as I love Star Trek (gen.1 Trekkie here), I'm not going to wait until the UFP economic system becomes reality.
 
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I answered this already. History and lack of proper social support and equal opportunity for individuals. You rubes don't even have universal health care nevermind universal basic income or free education (which we also lack). And both our countries still allow massive transfers of wealth from parent to child upon the death of the parent with minimal taxes. Think about it. Change that and you go a LONG way to creating a more even playing field, and over generations it should even out. This isn't racist and is far better than throwing gasoline on the flames as Loren put it, by the government actually pushing racism rather than combating it.

Healthcare--while our system has some pretty major room for improvement it's not that big a cause of poverty.

Education--we are talking about kids who aren't going to make it into college anyway, whether you have to pay for college isn't a factor.

This is a cultural problem that is more papered over in countries with a more substantial safety net, but it's not remotely unique to America.

Seriously, if you are for racist treatment of people, pushing for policies based on race groups rather than on individuals, race instead of merit, race instead of need, etc, how are you so different from racists from the past? You've just changed the favoured race.

And when you're for racist treatment of people you're perpetuating the racial conflicts.
 
Notwithstanding the fact that there are elites within the white population, white privilege is not a myth. The statistics prove it. Check income rates, arrest rates, incarceration rates, home owner rates and so on.
Reality: Those things are socioeconomic status, not race. Something the racism-"researchers" consistently fail to do is check if race is a merely a proxy variable for socioeconomic status. Strangely enough, those who actually do this obvious check come to a very different conclusion--the supposed racism vanishes. White, black or polka-dot makes no difference.
Orly? Let's have a look at a couple of examples then, shall we?

Hourly pay
Black Americans - $18.49
White Americans - $25.22

Student debt
Black Americans - $52,726
White Americans - $28,006

Home ownership rate
Black Americans - 41.3%
White Americans - 71.9%

Infant deaths/1000 births
Black Americans - 11.1
White Americans - 5.1

The standard garbage--assuming disparate results is proof of discrimination.

If you want to prove anything look at people in equal jobs. Note one simple data point--a far higher number of blacks have criminal records. That excludes one from almost all high paying jobs. If there weren't a wage difference something would be wrong.
 
There's plenty that can be done. For starters, you can investigate their murders and disappearances as though their lives mattered!

It's not some magic box where the more you do the more results you get. If there's no evidence there's no evidence. It's not some police procedural where there's always enough evidence to get the bad guy.

You can sort out the prostitutes from those whose disappearance is unrelated to that kind of work. You can identify their close associates. You can look for connections like "did they hang out with the same group of people", or "did they buy things from the same convenience store?", or "were they seen on the company of a particular truck driver?".

By the time the bodies are discovered (if they are at all) the trail is cold.

If your invrstigation reveals that natives have limited access to safe, reliable transportation, then you can work to improve that. If it indicates native communities are underserved by the police, then dispatch more police to the communities in need. If your investigation indicates coroners and cops are too quick to label deaths accidental, then go back through those cases and make sure the new investigative team exercises due diligence. But ffs don't just say "well, we can't focus our attention on native women because that's not fair to white guys".

All you're doing is throwing out garbage trying to pretend it's an answer. The problem is inherent in streetwalking--the whole business model is based on getting in cars with strangers.

The article I linked to put the number of missing and murdered native women in Canada over the last 4 decades at about 1200. Activists suspect the number is closer to 4000, perhaps even higher. That is a huge issue, especially considering native women only account for about 4% of the total population. It means they might be 50% of murder victims. But you can't do a damn thing about it unless you are willing to address the dangers faced by native women and ignore the cries of "racism!" and "sexism!" coming from people who, for some reason, think that if you concentrate your efforts on helping a particular demographic it automatically means you're trying to screw over the other ones.

This has nothing to do with native women. It's the perils of being a streetwalker in a rural area where it's easy to make bodies disappear. If you want to do something about it you're coming at it the wrong way. Forget they are First Nations. Instead, look for ways to improve the economic lot of poor people in such areas.

The thing is real solutions cost money. Government money. Blaming discrimination puts the cost on the supposed discriminators and thus appears to be free.

I think you're the one missing the point.

I understand your point--I just don't agree with it.

The goal here is to improve society by increasing fairness and justice, and ensuring that all persons have equal opportunities to prosper. That is not a zero-sum game. One person's opportunity doesn't comes at the expense of another's. It's a 'rising tide lifts all boats' kind of thing. Increasing fairness and social justice is good for everyone. Sure, a privileged few might lose their privileged position but that's not being unfair to them, it's eliminating unfairness.

I'm sure you know what road is paved with good intentions. That's the road you're on.

You're talking about things in the distant past. The people going to school now aren't suffering because of what happened then. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution!

It's not distant past. It's my current, ongoing life situation. I have benefitted hugely from white privilege. So did my parents. So did their parents. So does my offspring, and most likely so will any grandchildren.

No. Your evidence of it applies only in the past.

I think a lot of whites can't see how they have benefitted because to them, their privileged position is just 'the way things are'. They can't imagine what their lives would have been like if their parents had been black or Hispanic or Native. But it's pretty obvious their lives would have been impacted, perhaps severely, and they know it. They know that if they were treated no better than blacks or Hispanics or Filipinos they wouldn't have all the social advantages that come with being white.

My parents started with nothing, my mother with a severe handicap. They got nothing from their families beyond attitudes. They weren't racists. That's that, no possible benefit from wrongdoing in my history and thus no reason for you to be a thief.

No individual is responsible for the deeds of their ancestor, but it cannot be denied that past a social strata had effects on other social strata that reverberate to this day. Forget about guilt, just deserts and whatever else occurs to your individualist mindset. Focus on social iniquities that need to be addressed. It cannot be done by leaving each and every individual to their own devices. That way serves only to preserve the status quo.

Exactly. Help the disadvantaged. Their skin color doesn't matter.

You can't help the disadvantaged if you can't identify them or understand the factors that cause them to be disadvantaged.

1) Skin color is a pretty poor way of identifying the disadvantaged.

2) You are focusing on long-ago factors. You need to understand the current factors. The analogy I like to use is you're a doc in the ER--and you insist on treating broken bones with seat belts, because they got hurt from not wearing their seat belt in an accident.
 
Isn't converting the money to luxury consumption a form of putting it into the economy? Somebody needs to produce those luxury goods and services. It will probably mean some jobs, no? I see that as better than hording it through generations.

It's in the economy already--just as investment rather than as consumer spending.

And note that luxury consumption tends to involve a lot of foreign purchases.

I'm not terribly concerned with the foreign aspect. We could move to change that, and even if we don't, at least it means money is changing hands meaning taxation and likely job creation somewhere. I don't pretend to be an economist, but money moving is better than money being horded by the rich, isn't it? And more importantly, the money can be taken from the deceased and used to fund the social programs we need.

Ah, I see your problem. You imagine that money sitting there as a bank balance.

1) That's not reality. The rich put their money to work, they don't sit on it. It is doing something--for example, building the first properly reusable rockets the world has ever seen. SpaceX exists because he made a pile at other endeavors!

2) A 100% inheritance tax nets pretty close to $0 in taxes. Only people who made a mistake will pay any. While the Laffer curve is a standard joke there's truth under there--when the tax rate is too high you get less of the activity that is taxed. The reason it's a joke is the Republicans always pretend we are on the right side of the curve--but the reality is there is a right side of the curve.
 
Let's have a look at a couple of examples then, shall we?

Hourly pay
Black Americans - $18.49
White Americans - $25.22

Student debt
Black Americans - $52,726
White Americans - $28,006

Home ownership rate
Black Americans - 41.3%
White Americans - 71.9%

Infant deaths/1000 births
Black Americans - 11.1
White Americans - 5.1

I am curious what you think this proves? Loren said socioeconomic status is what's causing it. If race and socioeconomic status is highly correlated, and we know it is, then that could indeed explain it, and these stats don't touch on that one way or the other.
It's evidence that race itself has an impact on socioeconomic status. The above stats are of all blacks and all whites - regardless of socioeconomic status. Ignoring race, as far as blacks are concerned, is not going to fix their problems then, is it?

You can't fix racial discrimination on an individual basis. How would you go about it, for instance, when confronted with job applicants being discriminated against on account of being black?

Congratulations--you just proved that ice cream sales cause rape. (The evidence is as strong as your "proof" of discrimination here.) Do something useful--crusade against ice cream in order to protect women!

(Hint: You have made the standard correlation/causation mistake.)
 
How would you go about it, for instance, when confronted with job applicants being discriminated against on account of being black?

That does not look good.

Appears to be a meta-study, involving, in total, 55,842 applications submitted for 26,326 positions.

"Contrary to widespread assumptions about the declining significance of race, the magnitude and consistency of discrimination we observe over time is a sobering counterpoint."
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/41/10870.full
 
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
For example, a Missing Person or Suspicious Homicide report is usually investigated as a stand alone case. But when you've got 1,000 missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada and the cases have not been properly investigated, then it's high time to look at those women as a group to find out why they are especially vulnerable and why justice for them is less likely than it is for white Canadians.
My understanding is that most were sex workers in sparsely populated areas. In such a situation it basically comes down to did the killer make a mistake. You look at the scene for any forensic evidence that points to the killer, if you don't find anything all you can do is hope you get lucky next time. The bodies are dumped far from civilization, by the time they are found (if they're found at all) there's no useful evidence.

You can bemoan the state of affairs but there's not really much that can be done. Streetwalking is inherently risky.
There's plenty that can be done. For starters, you can investigate their murders and disappearances as though their lives mattered!

It's not some magic box where the more you do the more results you get. If there's no evidence there's no evidence. It's not some police procedural where there's always enough evidence to get the bad guy.

By the time the bodies are discovered (if they are at all) the trail is cold.


All you're doing is throwing out garbage trying to pretend it's an answer. The problem is inherent in streetwalking--the whole business model is based on getting in cars with strangers.


This has nothing to do with native women. It's the perils of being a streetwalker in a rural area where it's easy to make bodies disappear.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the kind of thinking that makes the 'individuals only, never groups' approach so ineffectual.

Jolly, I hope you're paying attention.

When confronted with evidence that Native women in Canada are going missing and being murdered at alarming rates, Loren calls them whores and says their deaths and disappearances are their own fault. It's perfectly circular: he thinks they were whores because they went missing or were murdered along a remote stretch of highway, and he thinks they went missing or were murdered because they were whores.

He denies that anti-Native bigotry had anything to do with his assessment, and that might be true. It might be simple sexism. Or it might just be lazy thinking. Either way, he immediately settled on an uninformed opinion that excuses him for not giving any more thought to the thousands of women being murdered, kidnapped, or lost. Unfortunately, the authorities charged with investigating these cases may have done the same.

A single death or missing person case is easy to overlook. A hundred of them that are considered individually and not compared to each other are easily dismissed, nothing to see here folks, case closed. It's only when the cases are considered in the aggregate that the extreme peril faced by Native women in Canada comes into focus. There could be a very prolific serial killer or two, cruising the Al-Can and looking for the next victim, and you'll never come to grips with it if you won't even talk about the group with the high murder rate.

I think that old saying about 'not seeing the forest because of the trees' applies here.


If you want to do something about it you're coming at it the wrong way. Forget they are First Nations. Instead, look for ways to improve the economic lot of poor people in such areas.

How are you going to address the needs of poor people if you can't talk about groups? How are you going to address the factors that impede the progress of poor people if you refuse to discuss the most common, persistent, and obvious obstacles to self-advancement and success?

Oh, yeah, that's right. We can talk about helping poor people because some of them are white, but we can't do anything about racists who refuse to hire or promote non-whites because that would be racist.

The thing is real solutions cost money. Government money. Blaming discrimination puts the cost on the supposed discriminators and thus appears to be free.

The only people who think it's free are idiots, ignoramuses, and children too young to have learned how our government works.


I think you're the one missing the point.

I understand your point--I just don't agree with it.

The goal here is to improve society by increasing fairness and justice, and ensuring that all persons have equal opportunities to prosper. That is not a zero-sum game. One person's opportunity doesn't comes at the expense of another's. It's a 'rising tide lifts all boats' kind of thing. Increasing fairness and social justice is good for everyone. Sure, a privileged few might lose their privileged position but that's not being unfair to them, it's eliminating unfairness.

I'm sure you know what road is paved with good intentions. That's the road you're on.

You're talking about things in the distant past. The people going to school now aren't suffering because of what happened then. You're part of the problem, not part of the solution!

It's not distant past. It's my current, ongoing life situation. I have benefitted hugely from white privilege. So did my parents. So did their parents. So does my offspring, and most likely so will any grandchildren.

No. Your evidence of it applies only in the past.

I think a lot of whites can't see how they have benefitted because to them, their privileged position is just 'the way things are'. They can't imagine what their lives would have been like if their parents had been black or Hispanic or Native. But it's pretty obvious their lives would have been impacted, perhaps severely, and they know it. They know that if they were treated no better than blacks or Hispanics or Filipinos they wouldn't have all the social advantages that come with being white.

My parents started with nothing, my mother with a severe handicap. They got nothing from their families beyond attitudes. They weren't racists. That's that, no possible benefit from wrongdoing in my history and thus no reason for you to be a thief.

You say you understand my point and then go one to completely mischaracterize it.

Someday you and I can talk about that 'thief' comment. It looks like Ayn Rand-style libertarian whinging about social spending, but I'm not sure you made it all the way through Atlas Shrugged.

No individual is responsible for the deeds of their ancestor, but it cannot be denied that past a social strata had effects on other social strata that reverberate to this day. Forget about guilt, just deserts and whatever else occurs to your individualist mindset. Focus on social iniquities that need to be addressed. It cannot be done by leaving each and every individual to their own devices. That way serves only to preserve the status quo.

Exactly. Help the disadvantaged. Their skin color doesn't matter.

You can't help the disadvantaged if you can't identify them or understand the factors that cause them to be disadvantaged.

1) Skin color is a pretty poor way of identifying the disadvantaged.

2) You are focusing on long-ago factors. You need to understand the current factors. The analogy I like to use is you're a doc in the ER--and you insist on treating broken bones with seat belts, because they got hurt from not wearing their seat belt in an accident.

I do understand current factors. I understand that institutional racism is a thing of the present. It happens every single day, across all sectors of the economy, and in all communities. And I understand the desperate hand waving and cries of 'everything that gave whites undeserved advantages are all in the past' whenever privileged whites feel their advantages are threatened. Most Americans have a very precarious position on the economic ladder, and the ladder is sinking. It's scary to think you might be worse off next year. I get that. But fairness and social justice are better than unfairness and injustice.

The first step towards self improvement is to admit you have a problem. The first step toward a more just and fair society with equal opportunities to succeed for all, is to admit the current system falls short of that goal and to understand why. And in order to do that, you're going to have to come to grips with how groups of people are advantaged or disadvantaged by the current system.
 
It's evidence that race itself has an impact on socioeconomic status. The above stats are of all blacks and all whites - regardless of socioeconomic status. Ignoring race, as far as blacks are concerned, is not going to fix their problems then, is it?

You can't fix racial discrimination on an individual basis. How would you go about it, for instance, when confronted with job applicants being discriminated against on account of being black?

Congratulations--you just proved that ice cream sales cause rape. (The evidence is as strong as your "proof" of discrimination here.) Do something useful--crusade against ice cream in order to protect women!
Correlation is possible evidence of causation. You have not presented any evidence that ice cream sales are correlated with rape. Nor have you presented any explanation as to why one would think they indicate rape. Hence you are literally babbling nonsense.

Correlation is possible evidence of causation. One may feel that it is not convincing evidence or that it masks the real causal factors, but then one ought to present an actual argument to that effect, along with actual data. Until you successfully do that, your arguments are equivalent to ant farts.
 
Really?

In my very first sentence in my very first post in this thread I said:
People should be treated as individuals when that is the most efficient and effective way to improve social justice, fairness, and equality of opportunity. But if treating them as members of a group is more efficient and effective, then that is what should happen.

I may have misread the above due to the context of what I and others had been saying before you wrote it. I took it to mean that you intend to treat them either as individuals or as group members. Is that incorrect?

We should NEVER treat people as interchangeable members of groups based on one trait instead of as individuals. We should not address the "groups" instead of the individuals within those groups, as the individuals are people and the groups are artificial abstractions. Do you agree? If so then I misunderstood the above.

The goal is fairness and justice for all. Treating people as individuals is good when it serves that purpose; treating them as members of a group is also good when it serves that purpose.

This again makes me doubt the above. Are you advocating treating them as members of a group instead of as individuals. Don't do that. That's what prejudice is. And when done on race that's what racism is.

I am not in favor of racism for the sake of racism. I am in favor of identifying problems in my society that negatively impact justice and fairness. I am in favor of addressing those problems efficiently and effectively. I am not in favor of refusing to discuss issues just because I'd have to use terms someone else might not want to hear.

That is good.

Be specific, and lets undo those advantages. Name a specific racist policy or specific racist action a person has taken, and lets deal with them harshly. And for you not to be a hypocrite about it, lets not let the race of the person doing it or the race of the person it is done to dictate our passion and conviction in dealing with it. And lets not create more of it.

So your suggestion for dealing with racism is to punish the guy in the local State of Alaska tradesman shop for not allowing the mixed race Native/black kid the HR department sent over to work a half day before dismissing him. And then do it to his subordinate when the subordinate refuses to have a black guy in the shop. And then do it again when the next in line proves to be just as much of a racist (true example btw; I know these guys).

Yes. That is definitely part of it. You disagree?

But we can't talk about decades of institutional racism in the State of Alaska workforce because that would be racist?

Sure we can. But actually do so and actually deal with it. That means pointing out the particular mechanisms and showing that they are actually what you say, getting all on board to take them down, and not just hand waving and pointing at ghosts.

We can't push for equality of opportunity for qualified candidates?

That is what I have been advocating for. Making decisions based on race other non-merit measures and treating people as group members instead of as individuals isn't doing that.

I'll fight for social justice using whatever means are most likely to produce the desired results and least likely to cause suffering.

Racism is not that means.
 
It is hard to redress the damage from 400 hundred years of racism without policies that address the victims by their group identities. It is hypocritical for whites to now insist on strict adherence to a color blind policy when they were elevated in the social order for so long based on such an arbitrary factor as the color of one's skin. We need to back off from identity politics, it hasn't served us well, especially in its most vile forms, racism, nationalism and xenophobia. But to now compound the racism by not going the extra effort to try to mitigate some of the damage inflicted on generations of people, to now say that we don't want to resort to racism, is cruel and heartless.

It is never bad to say we don't want to resort to racism. Racism is a category error that results in unjust treatment of individuals. It is a confusion of what one person is because of what others who look like her are have gone through. It is robbing her of her individuality and painting her as one of these or one of those. I am have Japanese blood, but I did not suffer internment in USA's Japanese internment camps during the 2nd world war. I have Chinese blood but I did not suffer in the building of the trans-Canada railway. A poor white refugee just arrived in America didn't do anything to Obama's children that justifies preferential treatment of the latter over the former. The white kids in the trailer park didn't either. Is it any surprise that they grow up resentful of black people if you insist that it is wrong for them to be racist against black people, but black people "can't be racist" against them, even if their mayor and chief of police is black?

No, racism is never justified, no matter who is doing it or who it is being done to. Neither is sexism or other forms of negative prejudice. You can't judge from the colour of my skin how much hardship or privilege I have had in my life. Doing so is wrong. Period.

As for affirmative action, we need to stop being lazy. Affirmative action is usually justified by pointing out that this group or that group is poverty struck or not given the same opportunities as that other group. But groups are not given opportunities. Individuals are. You can help the poor by helping the poor without being racist about it. That white kid who grew up dirt poor int he trailer park is no less worthy of your help than that black kid who grew up dirt poor in the ghetto. If you want to compare to legacy admissions, then again you can do so without race. Legacy admissions are no more justifiable if they are Obama's kids than if they are Bush's kids.

And if you are poor because your parents didn't have wealth to pass on to you because your grandparents or great grandparents were robbed of their wealth because of a racist policy back then, why is that any more unfair TO YOU (not to your ancestors it happened to) than if another person is poor because her parents didn't have wealth to pass on to her because her grandparents or great grandparents gambled the money away or lost it?

And by making an excuse for racism in one case, for the "underprivileged group", you encourage others to make excuses for racism in other cases, for the "privileged group". Racism is either wrong or it isn't. I say it is.

What is needed is for us to attack poverty. To establish that no one who is willing to work should be poor. Inherent in the divide and conquer strategy is the falsehood that for one to advance another has to be pushed back. That the economy is a zero sum game. This is not true. The economy expands to accommodate people who spend money on consumption. The more money that people have and the more that they spend the larger the economy expands. People who are higher paid have more money to spend. People who are better educated and better trained make more money and have more money to spend. When people are better educated and better trained it doesn't mean that someone else loses their education and training. That would be absurd. And yet that is what the divide and conquer strategy depends on.

Here we agree. Universal basic income needs to happen, and inheritance needs to be either done away with or much more heavily taxed. We should have equal opportunities as much as possible, and that should be looked at on an INDIVIDUAL level rather than by lumping people into groups, racial or otherwise, and assuming that each person lumped into that group not related to wealth level should be treated alike.

We need to stop dividing people by arbitrary or irrelevant traits such as race, gender, sexual orientation, etc and instead create empathy between people as individuals. Identity politics divides, and yes, I agree, it distracts from the massive wealth inequality we are facing.

I agree with most of this. I don't support affirmative action, it hasn't worked. I support raising up all of the underprivileged by raising their wages. I believe that racism is the ultimate sin, used to divide people arbitrary for hundreds of years. Unfortunately racism is so ingrained in our culture that it won't disappear until the very concept of race disappears. Fortunately the kids are handling this now. In Atlanta where I live about one in four young couples would be considered interracial in the past, if the part of town that I live in is any indication. It is hard to hate black people when your grandchildren are black.

If you believe that conservatives treat blacks as individuals and not as a group I need you to explain Mr. "Blacks deserve to be poor because of genetics." Is he treating blacks as individuals or is he tempering his support for ending racism with whatever he needs to say to support the discussion of the moment? And exposing his deep seeded racism in the process.

You have to agree that it is highly disingenuous that the political sector, the conservatives, who embraced legal racism for hundreds of years now are the loudest for getting rid of racism in such a strict sense only when there are the least attempts to help blacks. It is hard to believe that they have become so altruistic and that they aren't still responding to the fear of being overtaken if blacks are elevated in any minor way.

Once again, I point to the sole outrage in affirmative action left for the right is apparently over professional and elite university admissions, where in most cases the universities admission policies are justified. It is just a minor portion of what has been going on in these universities since they were founded. These highly selective universities reserve the right to make up their student bodies any way that they want for any reason that they want.

As long as the concept of race has such a hold on our society the professional universities believe that each race deserves to have doctors, lawyers, etc. from their own race. This is not unreasonable. Remember that an extremely conservative Supreme Court found that this is justifiable, as well as the idea that the universities should have control over who they admit. Note that this is now only the case for private universities, public universities have for the most part, strict color blind policies imposed by conservative state legislatures, except in the professional schools as I pointed out. No one is being denied an education by these admission requirements. Not like blacks were denied an education in the era of legalized racism.

Racism is still rampant in hiring in the private sector. This results in blacks being over represented in the public sector. And predictably, disingenuous conservatives see this as further evidence of inverse racism.

Racism is still rampant in education. Blacks are still over represented in the underprivileged. The schools that serve the underprivileged are poorly supported, a result of the uneven funding created by the reliance on property taxes. The solution is a more even funding of the schools, but this is opposed because it would mean sending our money to help others, a strict redline of redistribution for conservatives. The intentional redistribution of money is required in a capitalistic system where the system over rewards capital and rentiers and under rewards labor and invention.

The idea that this should be ignored results in large degree of pain to the poor and disproportionately then to blacks. This is racism from specious economics, fully supported by the grateful sponsors and beneficiaries of movement conservatism, the already wealthy. The redistribution of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the already wealthy, supported by conservatives largely because of its appeal to their residual racism and sexism. How else can you explain the singular most striking racial imbalance in this support, the large number of white middle and lower class men who support the wealthy against the men's own economic interests?

The belief in the fantasy of the self-regulating free market is a symptom of the delusion, not an explanation. There is no reason from history or from economic theory to believe that the free market can exist or that it would provide better economic results than we have right now.

Are there any other reasons for this level of support for laissez faire economics among white middle class and poor men?

What I don't support is the national basic income. It will always be derided by the right as welfare (or an entitlement) even if everyone receives it. You don't have to look any further than long time the Republican targets of Medicare and Social Security to see the truth of this. Most people would see most or all of their national income taken away in the higher taxes needed to pay for it. And it would subsidize lower wages. We will get more of anything that the government subsidizes. Just look at the example of tax cuts for the rich.

All that we need to do is to stop intentionally suppressing wages to increase profits. This is the way that we built up the income and wealth inequality over forty years. Start doing those things that we know boost wages, raise the minimum wage, encourage unions, discourage globalization and capital and IP flight, etc. This will take a long time to work but won't be as abrupt of a change as the universal income.

Raising incomes does risk inflation if done too quickly. This is because of the immediate effect of wage increases, above inflation, on the economy. You have to allow for production to catch up with the new demand. Unlike raising profits and the incomes of the already rich which doesn't produce inflation because it for the most part doesn't impact the economy, only the cost of real estate, the stock market and niche sectors of luxury goods like expensive and collectible automobiles, the so-called good inflation of capital gains, considered to be good apparently because it is inflation that benefits the wealthy.

A good start would be to pass a law that the sole purpose of a corporation isn't just to make profits for the owners but that they have an equal responsibility to the well being of their employees and to society in general. There doesn't have to be any ratios set or any punishment attached, only that this is how we expect corporations to be run from here on. Their annual reports should then detail how they have discharged their three coequal responsibilities and how the management is being rewarded for balancing them. In other words instead of using their excess profits for the economic masterbation of buying back their own stock to drive the stock price higher, to inflate its value, they would be encouraged to raise wages with a portion. This would be secretly be met with some relief by management. An ever increasing stock price puts pressure on management to increase profits higher and higher. In my experience with the German system in which the corporate responsibilities are split as I have proposed, the management and the labor are much more in tune with one another both working toward success for the corporation.

I also would be interested in the idea of the corporation being able to own themselves, to buy their own stock on the open market to the point that they own themselves. Under current accounting rules if a corporation owns more than 50% of the outstanding shares it is bankrupt because the outstanding shares are a liability of the corporation, not an asset. Therefore they would be converting assets, the excess profits above what is needed for reinvestment, into buying back the stock that remains a liability. The corporation has to retire the stock making it disappear to maintain the 50% of the outstanding shares available to the market in order to be a public corporation.

But if the corporation could own itself it could be operated for the dual purpose of supporting the employees and serving the customers, without the complications that an employee owned cooperative has with the dual nature of the employee/owner.


My wife is an employee/owner of a closely held private, professional corporation. The only stockholders are the licensed professional engineers employed by the company. When a shareholder retires or goes to another company they must sell their stock to another licensed engineer who is employed by the company. My wife owns the largest portion of the stock and she now wants to retire, but she can't sell all of her stock, largely because she bought so much of the stock to allow others to retire without having to lower the stock price. We are now caught in a legal nightmare. She is working just 24 hours a week, drawing a reduced salary. (And because she had to keep her health care insurance because she had breast cancer last year.)

We are now meeting with our lawyers to work out what to do, we probably will allow non-licensed engineers to buy stock, with the promise that they will become licensed when they can, to preserve the nature of the professional corporation. This nature is required by our errors and omissions insurer. A professional engineer is personally responsible for their errors and those of the non-licensed engineers and designers that work for them. The form of the corporation can't absolve them of this responsibility, unlike the executives of corporations, where the corporation is a sentient being, responsible for the mistakes of its management, who bear no personal responsibility for their own mistakes or their crimes.



Sorry that I continue to go on so long. I am not disagreeing with you. I don't normally. But it is a chance for me to put down my thoughts to see if they make any sense, I know that you will give them a read and point out any blemishes, without repeating the worn out, barely understood stock arguments.
 
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