Underseer
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I generally prefer 2B if I can find it.
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Authority makes things true!
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I generally prefer 2B if I can find it.
arkirk
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And the last time you loaded it, did it ask that old familiar question: "Two bee or not two bee?" While we are at it, what about the fact that your mechanical pencil is Soft on Paper? My mechanical pencil is hard and demands you fire Fred on its authority. Fred does spell things out in big dumb letters, but they get all smeary when challenged with rubber.
fromderinside
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Sheesh. Even underseer is missing his own point. Its not what is authority it's how what has authority.
Authority requires the means to enforce.
So, underseer, how does Fred gain power or whatever through which it can enforce its authority authority
Authority requires the means to enforce.
So, underseer, how does Fred gain power or whatever through which it can enforce its authority authority
Underseer
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So... might makes right?
In that case, everything said by any soldier anywhere is 100% true.
Are you saying the power of authority lies in the force at its disposal? I say it lies primarily in the heads of people who have been punished or have seen or even heard about others being punished. The actual level of force or physical power available is merely a tool and not always required if the propaganda is good.
You don't actually need physical strength or weapons, just intimidation and belief among the populace that you have power.
fromderinside
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I agree with what you write with one caveat. If there is no force and it is recognized there is no force there will no fear in anyone threatened with that non existent thing, force. So the existence of force is primary.
It may be in existence of the Leviathan from which you make your claims. Remember, without the actual capability to enforce there would never be a Leviathan and Hobbes would be in a fix.
fromderinside
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Are you certain? I say some will stand up against the soldier and may prevail against him for a while. Such sets up the paradigm whereby the threat of force works, but, still, permits choice and alternative behaviors, perhaps a better, stronger force may come to pass.
Exactly my point. It must be recognized that you have force and that can be done by showing actual force or by manipulating people into believing that force will be used. So force is not primary. Propaganda and manipulation are primary, and the efficacy of those things depends on whether anyone pays attention to you and believes you. There are myriad ways to convince someone you can hurt them even if you can't.
Furthermore, it's also what's going on in the heads of the populace that can enable them to overcome oppressive authority, even sometimes in the face of actual force of power.
fromderinside
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Without actual capability of force there is no meaning for propaganda, manipulation, or anything else, there is no basis to sustain them in the targeted one's mind. Actual capability for force is necessary therefore primary.
I will grant that is one gets others to believe in magical fairies one can gain sway through magical fairy 'answers' to doubt and uncertainty. Here is a case where there is no force other than that existing in the mind of the uncertain which can be exploited by anyone touting fairies by providing answers that appear to resolve doubt in favor of the wishes of those controlling the fairies. Fortunately many of us age getting past such manipulations or maybe not (what's going on among fundamentalists Christian and otherwise suggest there is still some steam in that "don't bother with evidence" population that is too lazy to gather evidence about things themselves)
Really? How many? How many people are aware of how they are being manipulated at any given time, or even that they are being manipulated?
Fox News has been the number one most watched news network for a decade. I don't see any of its fans saying "yeah, we know we're being manipulated through images, emotion, and language, but we're gonna buy these guns and fantasize about exercising our god-given right to kill libruls and Muslims anyway."
All you need to be manipulated into believing you are subject to an authority is having had an experience of fear or pain. In some cases, you don't even need that. You don't have to have had the experience of drought or severe dehydration to understand well enough that the consequences of having no water might be dire. Unless you know something others don't, or know yourself better than most, the very suggestion can easily trigger self preservation, fear, and uncertainty in you, diminishing the capacity of your frontal lobes. But it's OK, we have authorities that are responsible for making sure we have enough clean water. (This is a practical use of belief in an authority, at least until it goes corrupt due to no one keeping an eye on it or questioning it.)
Speakpigeon
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Being sneaky and underhanded may be just as effective.
EB
Speakpigeon
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I'm not clear whence the authority comes from in this instance? Can you ask your MP?
EB
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No I don't think it does.
EB
Speakpigeon
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It doesn't seem too sharp.
EB
Speakpigeon
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Relevant senses (relying on the authority of a dictionary):
EB
fromderinside
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Sorry. I've been away for a while.
is a non Sequitur, moot, since everybody feels pain you are making no argument. Everybody is manipulable because they all feel pain and fear. The actual starting point is for one to know another has the power inflict. One needs to know a specific thing. After that your logic looks fine.
Underseer
Contributor
You're just saying that because you want to be a bad person, and thus you have a motive to deny the truth offered by Fred.
Also, I thought I already specified. Fred strictly uses 2B pencil lead.
There was something amended a long time go in America about making militia type things to say don't fuhk with me if a power became too mean and manipulative. Propaganda is harmful to children and little animals. Illusion is all there is considering your point and considering life anyway. Why people hold back and refuse banks, giant franchises and all that is bewildering me and it is like an itch under all 3 eyelids. Nazi gun control worked in 33 and what happened in subsequent years was astoundingly insane, so say no to registering trigger-fire things. Your records can be used against you. my suggestion buy many guns from crack dealers and clean them well.
How about the fake-ass Isil stuff? I like shooting the shit out of someone after handing them a weapon and then stealing their stuff. Over time that seems to be the trend from what I've seen. Isil, or the cooler tag Isis is as fake as my hair color and it pulled the bangs over 66% of stupid ass Americans who apparently don't deserve themselves, much less their own freedom. I don't see a distinction between Gov and Country enough. I think it is giving the American soldier who beheads people on film nightmares, assuming he wasn't killed also. What a horrible regime that starts to crumble when you withdraw their fake money from their fake bank tomorrow. What a disease spreading from Oregon to organ making people feel like the need permission to love, smoke, and screw everything up in their own manipulative ways, instead of following the ways of those faceless and possibly nonexistent rich people who take the blame for our own stupidity. Productivity = hostility and fear in the end. This is all thoughtless and theoretical, so see you in hell. Oh wow, hi, that was quick.
How about the fake-ass Isil stuff? I like shooting the shit out of someone after handing them a weapon and then stealing their stuff. Over time that seems to be the trend from what I've seen. Isil, or the cooler tag Isis is as fake as my hair color and it pulled the bangs over 66% of stupid ass Americans who apparently don't deserve themselves, much less their own freedom. I don't see a distinction between Gov and Country enough. I think it is giving the American soldier who beheads people on film nightmares, assuming he wasn't killed also. What a horrible regime that starts to crumble when you withdraw their fake money from their fake bank tomorrow. What a disease spreading from Oregon to organ making people feel like the need permission to love, smoke, and screw everything up in their own manipulative ways, instead of following the ways of those faceless and possibly nonexistent rich people who take the blame for our own stupidity. Productivity = hostility and fear in the end. This is all thoughtless and theoretical, so see you in hell. Oh wow, hi, that was quick.
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Underseer
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What the [bad word] does any of that have to do with the relationship between epistemology and authority?