'Baby, It's Cold Outside,' Seen As Sexist, Frozen Out By Radio Stations

[Underseer]

This #MeToo-era-cum-yuletide-season, radio stations are pulling the plug on that holiday earworm with lyrics that, to some, ring date-rape warning bells, rather than evoking innocent snow-bound flirtation.

...

Cleveland's WDOK put its foot down where the female voice could not, announcing its ban of the song last week.

"I do realize that when the song was written in 1944, it was a different time, but now while reading it, it seems very manipulative and wrong," host Glenn Anderson wrote on the station's web site. "The world we live in is extra sensitive now, and people get easily offended, but in a world where #MeToo has finally given women the voice they deserve, the song has no place."

Brian Figula, program director of KOIT saw the headlines and determined the song would have no place at his San Francisco station. He banned it on Monday.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/05/6737...e-seen-as-sexist-frozen-out-by-radio-stations

Seems pretty snowflakey to get offended by this song. Many gangsta rap songs have far worse lyrics, sometimes glorifying murder, drug abuse, and demeaning women. And yet it is a song like this that people complain about and want to ban from the radio? Kinda seems like we are reentering a new conservative prudish type era.

Thoughts?

Oh no! Do people complain about sexism because they think women should be equal?

That must make you feel less special as a man. If women are equal, then that's the same thing as hurting men, isn't it? Kind of like how complaining about racism constitutes white genocide?

Gosh, I sure hope your feewings weren't hurt by any of this.

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Did that help your fragile male ego? Would it help if I did it again, but tried to sound like a woman while saying it?

 

[Copernicus]

The fascinating thing about this story is how people who advocate for censorship think that they are fighting the good fight to suppress what they consider dangerous or offensive material. In fact, the attempt to get the stations to ban this song has caused far, far more people to be exposed to it than would ever have happened if they had just ignored it. Radio stations are, and should be, free to refrain from airing material that they feel will offend their audience, but they sometimes overreact to a few complaints that represent an insignificant number of their listeners.

There should be nothing at all in this song to offend anyone. It reflects a dated courtship routine in which the main issue is the appearance of a taboo sexual relationship, which still remains taboo even in these modern times. Women are still considered "sluts" if they take on a lot of lovers, and men are still admired for the same behavior, especially among young people who are more concerned about reputations and appearances. However, the taboo is a great deal weaker now than it was when the song was written--before the sexual revolution and when accidental pregnancy was far more serious and likely to happen.

Some think that this song became an issue for "metoo" when South Park did a satirical piece on Bill Cosby that featured this song. In any case, I've always liked the song, and I'm not unhappy that it is getting something of a comeback in popularity after all the hullabaloo has called attention to it.

 

[JohnG]

The fascinating thing about this story is how people who advocate for censorship think that they are fighting the good fight to suppress what they consider dangerous or offensive material. In fact, the attempt to get the stations to ban this song has caused far, far more people to be exposed to it than would ever have happened if they had just ignored it. Radio stations are, and should be, free to refrain from airing material that they feel will offend their audience, but they sometimes overreact to a few complaints that represent an insignificant number of their listeners.

There should be nothing at all in this song to offend anyone. It reflects a dated courtship routine in which the main issue is the appearance of a taboo sexual relationship, which still remains taboo even in these modern times. Women are still considered "sluts" if they take on a lot of lovers, and men are still admired for the same behavior, especially among young people who are more concerned about reputations and appearances. However, the taboo is a great deal weaker now than it was when the song was written--before the sexual revolution and when accidental pregnancy was far more serious and likely to happen.

Some think that this song became an issue for "metoo" when South Park did a satirical piece on Bill Cosby that featured this song. In any case, I've always liked the song, and I'm not unhappy that it is getting something of a comeback in popularity after all the hullabaloo has called attention to it.

I dunno, I laughed out loud in my car about a month ago when I heard it for the first time in a long time. It's pretty obviously a rapey song. There are lots of songs from the past about dating underage girls too. They are of the time. It's not like these songs are stories of abnormal behavior, they are basic social commentary type stuff - because lusting after underage girls and being aggressive towards women wasn't unusual. Hell it still isn't.

but I still like to think the patriarchy has progressed a little since then.

 

[J842P]

This #MeToo-era-cum-yuletide-season, radio stations are pulling the plug on that holiday earworm with lyrics that, to some, ring date-rape warning bells, rather than evoking innocent snow-bound flirtation.

...

Cleveland's WDOK put its foot down where the female voice could not, announcing its ban of the song last week.

"I do realize that when the song was written in 1944, it was a different time, but now while reading it, it seems very manipulative and wrong," host Glenn Anderson wrote on the station's web site. "The world we live in is extra sensitive now, and people get easily offended, but in a world where #MeToo has finally given women the voice they deserve, the song has no place."

Brian Figula, program director of KOIT saw the headlines and determined the song would have no place at his San Francisco station. He banned it on Monday.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/05/6737...e-seen-as-sexist-frozen-out-by-radio-stations

Seems pretty snowflakey to get offended by this song. Many gangsta rap songs have far worse lyrics, sometimes glorifying murder, drug abuse, and demeaning women. And yet it is a song like this that people complain about and want to ban from the radio? Kinda seems like we are reentering a new conservative prudish type era.

Thoughts?

Oh no! Do people complain about sexism because they think women should be equal?

That must make you feel less special as a man. If women are equal, then that's the same thing as hurting men, isn't it? Kind of like how complaining about racism constitutes white genocide?

Gosh, I sure hope your feewings weren't hurt by any of this.

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Oh, baby, you're the biggest and the best!

Did that help your fragile male ego? Would it help if I did it again, but tried to sound like a woman while saying it?

Are you a human, or a bot?

 

[RavenSky]

I dunno, I laughed out loud in my car about a month ago when I heard it for the first time in a long time. It's pretty obviously a rapey song. There are lots of songs from the past about dating underage girls too. They are of the time. It's not like these songs are stories of abnormal behavior, they are basic social commentary type stuff - because lusting after underage girls and being aggressive towards women wasn't unusual. Hell it still isn't.

but I still like to think the patriarchy has progressed a little since then.

^^^ That

I'm not sure who is calling for a ban of the song. I know I'm not. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is quite "rapey"... and a product of its time.

 

[Derec]

I'm not sure who is calling for a ban of the song. I know I'm not. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is quite "rapey"... and a product of its time.

Nobody has yet explained what's supposed to be "rapey" about it. Be specific.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not sure who is calling for a ban of the song. I know I'm not. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is quite "rapey"... and a product of its time.

Nobody has yet explained what's supposed to be "rapey" about it. Be specific.

People have discussed the relevant lines over and over...

 

[Derec]

I'm not sure who is calling for a ban of the song. I know I'm not. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is quite "rapey"... and a product of its time.

Nobody has yet explained what's supposed to be "rapey" about it. Be specific.

People have discussed the relevant lines over and over...

And it has been explained why they are not "rapey" in the thread.

 

[ruby sparks]

There is no need to ban the song entirely, as the acceptably revised version sung in this scene demonstrates:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=36&v=48Xg0FS-O6Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

It's a good song, but I can see why people have issues with it, I used to think the song was fucked up, but on closer listening it's really about the woman wanting to get some, and trying to talk herself into ignoring what the prudish society will think. The line about the drink is the main one that makes you think of date rape, but I think that is actually her inventing an excuse to "misbehave." There's no convincing people otherwise at this point though.

The assumption that any "woman [is] wanting to get some, and trying to talk herself into ignoring what the prudish society will think" is how women get 'date' raped.

That's exactly it. That assumption is the biggest problem and the source of the potential danger. If someone, let's say traditionally it's a man (for various reasons, some biological, some cultural) is trying to persuade (aka seduce) someone else (let's say a woman) to have sex, then the assumption that 'no' (in words or behaviour) really means 'yes' is likely to lead to instances where the sex, if it takes place, is forced. That won't always be the case, because apparently some women (39% according to one 1988 study involving self-reporting) do engage in token resistance, for reasons which include for example fear of slut-shaming (this is an example of a mostly cultural factor not a biological one). And I'd guess that when the song was written, this would have been more prevalent a factor than today (as well as many other factors, including the fear of having an unintended pregnancy in the 1940's, which is an example of a mostly biological, non-cultural factor).

In this song, I think there is room to read both the lyrics and the actions of the actors/singers (when the song is in a film) as either a bit rapey or conversely a bit liberating and progressive (for its time) or that it is neutral, as in generally harmless, or, at the very least, that the persuasions/seductions involved do not themselves go too far, which I feel they don't (in the end, the person being seduced consents) in the song/film at least (though of course certain real-world behaviours may be somewhat sanitised in such popular media and in the real world consent can result from feeling heavily pressured to consent).

Therefore, I am going to suggest that the song is neither one nor the other (rapey or progressive) but is actually mostly ambiguous, perhaps especially the line about 'what's in this drink?' Which ambiguity may explain why opinion is divided regarding it, because responses to it will depend on the perspective of the listener/viewer.

Personally, like you, I would not be calling for (or in my case even be in favour of) the song being banned by radio stations, even though I can see why some others would, for reasons which can be considered valid (including by me). But to me, bans of this sort are getting into 'Coddling of the American Mind' (PC going too far) territory. Furthermore, from what I can see from online polls, the majority of listeners seem to agree with that. (95% of 15,000 listeners to Colorado radio station KOSI 101.1 for example, I read, and here in Ireland, 97% of respondents to a Buzz Radio poll, want the song played).

On the upside, for those who like the song, it's getting a lot of attention and airtime, and for those concerned by the song, the reasons for their concerns are also getting a lot of attention and airtime. Which might be a sort of imperfect win-win.




Relevant links:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3379584

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/...ore-radio-stations-causing-uproar/2213458002/

https://www.buzz.ie/christmas/poll-baby-cold-outside-offensive-christmas-song-309083

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm shocked by the over reactions to songs like this one, but I don't have a problem with people who don't always agree with me. I just don't understand why some are so easily bothered by the lyrics of a song. Compared to some of pop hip hop, those lyrics are sweet. Have any of you ever read the lyrics to some of some hip hop songs? They actually glorify rape in some cases, slut shame women etc. And some of you are bothered by a song where the man is simply trying to talk a woman into spending the night with him! There is nothing in that song that suggests rape.

I've gone to men's homes that I didn't know very well when I was young. Not a single one of them raped me. Everyone of them respected me when I said that I didn't want to have sex with them, and in fact, I met my husband in a bar named "Tramps" of all things. We spent the night together. We didn't have sex because I said NO, then he asked me if I would keep him company since it was late at night and we were both tired. If a woman isn't strong enough to say no, then she should never agree to spend time alone in a man's home if it makes her fearful.

I am glad I'm older and have a wonderful sex life. Maybe it's social media that has destroyed sexy, romance. I really don't know. I"m just glad that I'm strong enough not to be insulted or fearful when a man tries to hit on me. And guess what. It never stops. During the few times when I'm not with my husband, I still occasionally get hit on. I find it amusing for the most part, although there are times when it can be annoying, at worst. And, I've had female patients in their 80s that got hit on by men of the same age, and sometimes that ended up with a sexual/romantic relationship. My female patient's biggest complaint was that the man had erection problems. Nobody should ever be forced into having sex if they don't want that, but flirting, seduction, etc. are all part of the fun, as long as it's done with the understanding that the woman or the man can always say no.

Also, why is this in the political forum? It seems more like a social science issue to me. Just sayin'.

 

[ZiprHead]

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/jaBB0nmBpnM[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Politesse]

Also, why is this in the political forum? It seems more like a social science issue to me. Just sayin'.

Because some people think a shift in social attitudes can only be explained by a shadowy "SJW" conspiracy to take away the rights and freedoms of white men through censorship and prosecution of thought crimes.

There's no science to be found in this conversation.

 

[Copernicus]

Also, why is this in the political forum? It seems more like a social science issue to me. Just sayin'.

Because some people think a shift in social attitudes can only be explained by a shadowy "SJW" conspiracy to take away the rights and freedoms of white men through censorship and prosecution of thought crimes.

There's no science to be found in this conversation.

I think it's here because the #metoo movement is a political movement associated with women's rights. FTR, I agree completely with sohy's perspective on this subject. This song has nothing whatsoever to do with "rape". It is about a gambit intended by the male to lead to a consensual relationship and the complex social interaction surrounding courtship rituals.

Rape is about forced or non-consensual sex. That is the kind of thing that Bill Cosby did. He did not persuade women to stay the night with him. He did not give them a chance to refuse. He drugged and raped them. Similarly, "date rape" does not usually refer to a case where a boy just convinces a girl to have sex with him. That happens all the time. It can be a very bad decision, but it is not rape. Date rape is when a demand or plea to stop is ignored by the other person. It is a coercive act.

I think that people who call this song "rapey" are reading a lot into it that just isn't there and never was there.

 

[Politesse]

Also, why is this in the political forum? It seems more like a social science issue to me. Just sayin'.

Because some people think a shift in social attitudes can only be explained by a shadowy "SJW" conspiracy to take away the rights and freedoms of white men through censorship and prosecution of thought crimes.

There's no science to be found in this conversation.

I think it's here because the #metoo movement is a political movement associated with women's rights. FTR, I agree completely with sohy's perspective on this subject. This song has nothing whatsoever to do with "rape". It is about a gambit intended by the male to lead to a consensual relationship and the complex social interaction surrounding courtship rituals.

Rape is about forced or non-consensual sex. That is the kind of thing that Bill Cosby did. He did not persuade women to stay the night with him. He did not give them a chance to refuse. He drugged and raped them. Similarly, "date rape" does not usually refer to a case where a boy just convinces a girl to have sex with him. That happens all the time. It can be a very bad decision, but it is not rape. Date rape is when a demand or plea to stop is ignored by the other person. It is a coercive act.

I think that people who call this song "rapey" are reading a lot into it that just isn't there and never was there.

I know what "rape" is. "Rapey" is not rape. "Rapey" means it has some troubling undertones, not that it documents a crime.

Often in the summers, I'll warn my students that one of the environments we're stepping out into from our field trip vans is "snakey territory"; When I say this, I do not mean "look out, I literally see a rattlesnake an inch from your foot". I mean "this is the kind of environment that desert mice, and therefore rattlers, favor, so you should be a bit more cautious than usual if scrambling over any rocks". A woman alone with a man who is "joking" about being slipped a mickey or being playfully taken advantage of but sending mixed messages to the man in the situation, or even tolerating his unwillingness to take "no" at face value, is not being raped. But she isn't being careful either. And if she does get raped, her family and friends and possibly a district court judge will say "Why were you alone at his house in the late hours if you didn't want it? Why didn't you tell hom more clearly that you didn't? From a man's point of view, it seemed like you were just playing hard to get. By your own account, you never actually said no... even when you did. Because if there is any room for doubt, the woman is always at fault. Even if she did say no."

Rapey situation.

-----

I think there's probably a generational difference involved here; for us millenials, the "sexual revolution" was not something we experienced directly. We may have benefited passively from the greater personal freedoms it embraced. But a lot of us are also the literally unintended and unwanted results of the supposedly carefree sexual abandon it created. We may want those same freedoms - freedom of choice, freedom of experimentation. But we are also a much more cautious and even paranoid generation in a lot of ways. We have seen with our own eyes, written on our families, what it looks like when consent is not established before sex. And we are much less likely to believe the justifications our mothers came up with to excuse the behavior of our fathers, and less motivated to prove that it wasn't really coercion if it was.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EJ1SBAO1HU[/YOUTUBE]

This is funnier when you realize Miss Piggy is voiced and pupeteered by Fank Oz. Yup, that's Yoda.

 

[TSwizzle]

I think that people who call this song "rapey" are reading a lot into it that just isn't there and never was there.

The notion that the song is “rapey” is an extreme position to say the least.

 

[RavenSky]

Date rape is when a demand or plea to stop is ignored by the other person.

Or he gets her too drunk to resist

It is a coercive act.

Sadly, not far enough removed from "persuasion" in the minds of date rapists.

This song simply treads close to the divide between "persuasion" and "coercion". That's why some of us are calling it "a little bit rapey" rather than a "date rape song".

And to be clear, this song is not at all the only one, nor the worst one. It is simply the one someone started a thread about.

 

[Copernicus]

...

I think that people who call this song "rapey" are reading a lot into it that just isn't there and never was there.

I know what "rape" is. "Rapey" is not rape. "Rapey" means it has some troubling undertones, not that it documents a crime.

I know what misleading emotional language is. You term "rapey" is exactly that.

Often in the summers, I'll warn my students that one of the environments we're stepping out into from our field trip vans is "snakey territory"; When I say this, I do not mean "look out, I literally see a rattlesnake an inch from your foot". I mean "this is the kind of environment that desert mice, and therefore rattlers, favor, so you should be a bit more cautious than usual if scrambling over any rocks"...

So you use the term "snakey" to warn your students about the likelihood of real snakes. I prefer the more explanatory language, but "snakey" is appropriate in that context. You use the term "rapey" to describe a song that has nothing to do with any kind of rape at all. That is absurd.

...A woman alone with a man who is "joking" about being slipped a mickey or being playfully taken advantage of but sending mixed messages to the man in the situation, or even tolerating his unwillingness to take "no" at face value, is not being raped. But she isn't being careful either. And if she does get raped, her family and friends and possibly a district court judge will say "Why were you alone at his house in the late hours if you didn't want it? Why didn't you tell hom more clearly that you didn't? From a man's point of view, it seemed like you were just playing hard to get. By your own account, you never actually said no... even when you did. Because if there is any room for doubt, the woman is always at fault. Even if she did say no."

Rapey situation.

Poli, all of that context just proves my point. You are making it up to try to justify extremist language regarding a song that depicts a flirtatious conversation in 1944. The couple end up singing in harmony, as koy pointed out earlier in the thread. Can you guess why? Rape is, and always has been, about force, not persuasion.

I think there's probably a generational difference involved here; for us millenials, the "sexual revolution" was not something we experienced directly. We may have benefited passively from the greater personal freedoms it embraced. But a lot of us are also the literally unintended and unwanted results of the supposedly carefree sexual abandon it created. We may want those same freedoms - freedom of choice, freedom of experimentation. But we are also a much more cautious and even paranoid generation in a lot of ways. We have seen with our own eyes, written on our families, what it looks like when consent is not established before sex. And we are much less likely to believe the justifications our mothers came up with to excuse the behavior of our fathers, and less motivated to prove that it wasn't really coercion if it was.

Don't use your generation as an excuse for your feelings. Not everyone that shares your hypersensitive feelings about this song is a millennial, and you certainly cannot speak for your entire generation. The people who complain about the lyrics of "Baby, It's Cold Outside" as "rapey" have a very narrow range of tolerance for songs written by all generations, not just the WWII generation.

 

[Copernicus]

Date rape is when a demand or plea to stop is ignored by the other person.

Or he gets her too drunk to resist

That seems to have been Kavanaugh's strategy. (Wait! Wasn't he a millennial? Sorry, Poli. ) It is true that there is some playful banter about a drink. The woman asks for half a glass more ("Well maybe just a half a drink more") and then says coyly "Say what's in this drink?". At the end of the song, she asks for another drink. That wasn't about getting her too drunk to resist or slipping her a Mickey. It was about getting her to feel less inhibited. She knew exactly what was in the drink, unlike Cosby's victims.

Here is what Frank Loesser's daughter, Susan Loesser, said about the "drink" issue (See ‘Baby, It’s Cold Outside’ composer’s daughter: ‘It’s not ‘a date rape song’):

“I think it would be good if people looked at the song in the context of the time,” she said. “People used to say ‘what’s in this drink’ as a joke. You know, ‘this drink is going straight to my head so what’s in this drink?’ Back then it didn’t mean you drugged me.”

It is a coercive act.

Sadly, not far enough removed from "persuasion" in the minds of date rapists.

This song simply treads close to the divide between "persuasion" and "coercion". That's why some of us are calling it "a little bit rapey" rather than a "date rape song".

And to be clear, this song is not at all the only one, nor the worst one. It is simply the one someone started a thread about.

But others are calling it a "date rape" song, and those calling it a "little bit rapey" are using the same misleading label. Rape is different from seduction and persuasion. It is a criminal act. Trying to proposition a woman can be rude and inappropriate, but it is not the slightest bit "rapey". Not even a little. Forcing sex on an unwilling partner is. This song does not even get close to crossing the line, and, as you hint, there are far worse songs out there. A vast number actually.