Berlin choir accused of gender discrimination by nine-year-old girl

[Metaphor]

From the Guardian:

A nine-year-old girl is taking Berlin’s oldest boys’ choir to court, claiming the state-run institution’s admissions criteria are gender-biased and violate Germany’s constitution.

Next week, Berlin’s administrative court will hear that the decision of the State and Cathedral Choir Berlin (SDB) to reject the girl after an audition in April this year was discriminatory because it infringed on her right to equal opportunities in state support.

The girl’s mother, who is bringing forward the complaint on her behalf, argues the choir’s girls-only partner choir at the Berliner Singakademie could not have provided her daughter with training of a similar quality.

...

The choir’s directors said in a statement issued by the court that boys’ and girls’ choirs sound different for anatomical reasons, and that higher rejection rates for girls were justified on the grounds of artistic freedom.

Bräcklein said experts had dismissed the notion that prepubescent male voices had a unique tonal purity, pointing to a 2002 study by the British academic David Howard – Gendered Voice in the Cathedral Choir – which found that most listeners could not tell the difference between choirs of girls and boys singing the same songs.

...

Leaving aside the legal merit of the case (hinged on it being state-run), is it a good idea that boys choirs ought be forced to become mixed-gender choirs? Is the tonal ignorance of the public a good enough reason to remove the 'boy' from 'boy soprano'?

Full confession: I'm a bass in my work choir, and I know some of those alto bitches can't wait to vocal fry their way down to D2 and take over and so I'm naturally afraid I'll lose my privileged position.

 

[Playball40]

You can't 'leave aside' it being 'state run' since that is the basis of the complaint. For privately funded choirs, they can establish any criteria they choose.

From the Guardian:

A nine-year-old girl is taking Berlin’s oldest boys’ choir to court, claiming the state-run institution’s admissions criteria are gender-biased and violate Germany’s constitution.

Next week, Berlin’s administrative court will hear that the decision of the State and Cathedral Choir Berlin (SDB) to reject the girl after an audition in April this year was discriminatory because it infringed on her right to equal opportunities in state support.

The girl’s mother, who is bringing forward the complaint on her behalf, argues the choir’s girls-only partner choir at the Berliner Singakademie could not have provided her daughter with training of a similar quality.

...

The choir’s directors said in a statement issued by the court that boys’ and girls’ choirs sound different for anatomical reasons, and that higher rejection rates for girls were justified on the grounds of artistic freedom.

Bräcklein said experts had dismissed the notion that prepubescent male voices had a unique tonal purity, pointing to a 2002 study by the British academic David Howard – Gendered Voice in the Cathedral Choir – which found that most listeners could not tell the difference between choirs of girls and boys singing the same songs.

...

Leaving aside the legal merit of the case (hinged on it being state-run), is it a good idea that boys choirs ought be forced to become mixed-gender choirs? Is the tonal ignorance of the public a good enough reason to remove the 'boy' from 'boy soprano'?

Full confession: I'm a bass in my work choir, and I know some of those alto bitches can't wait to vocal fry their way down to D2 and take over and so I'm naturally afraid I'll lose my privileged position.

 

[dismal]

You can't 'leave aside' it being 'state run' since that is the basis of the complaint.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there shouldn't be state run choirs, period. Here's a great chance to fix that.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The choir’s directors said in a statement issued by the court that boys’ and girls’ choirs sound different for anatomical reasons, and that higher rejection rates for girls were justified on the grounds of artistic freedom.

This seems to imply that the choir is already admitting or is open to admitting girls.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You can't 'leave aside' it being 'state run' since that is the basis of the complaint.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there shouldn't be state run choirs, period. Here's a great chance to fix that.

Agreed.

 

[dismal]

The choir’s directors said in a statement issued by the court that boys’ and girls’ choirs sound different for anatomical reasons, and that higher rejection rates for girls were justified on the grounds of artistic freedom.

This seems to imply that the choir is already admitting or is open to admitting girls.

Well, "higher" could be 100% versus 75% or something like that.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Do they still employ old eunuch monks from the Friary of Worms to castrate the boys?

 

[starwater]

From the Guardian:

A nine-year-old girl is taking Berlin’s oldest boys’ choir to court, claiming the state-run institution’s admissions criteria are gender-biased and violate Germany’s constitution.

Next week, Berlin’s administrative court will hear that the decision of the State and Cathedral Choir Berlin (SDB) to reject the girl after an audition in April this year was discriminatory because it infringed on her right to equal opportunities in state support.

The girl’s mother, who is bringing forward the complaint on her behalf, argues the choir’s girls-only partner choir at the Berliner Singakademie could not have provided her daughter with training of a similar quality.

...

The choir’s directors said in a statement issued by the court that boys’ and girls’ choirs sound different for anatomical reasons, and that higher rejection rates for girls were justified on the grounds of artistic freedom.

Bräcklein said experts had dismissed the notion that prepubescent male voices had a unique tonal purity, pointing to a 2002 study by the British academic David Howard – Gendered Voice in the Cathedral Choir – which found that most listeners could not tell the difference between choirs of girls and boys singing the same songs.

...

Leaving aside the legal merit of the case (hinged on it being state-run), is it a good idea that boys choirs ought be forced to become mixed-gender choirs? Is the tonal ignorance of the public a good enough reason to remove the 'boy' from 'boy soprano'?

Full confession: I'm a bass in my work choir, and I know some of those alto bitches can't wait to vocal fry their way down to D2 and take over and so I'm naturally afraid I'll lose my privileged position.

OMG! Your threatened by women singers!

 

[Horatio Parker]

Most listeners, which btw is not "all", can't tell the difference, but choir specialists can.

Seems likely to me that the real problem is that the girls choir was an afterthought and doesn't receive the same attention as the boys. Why that would result in more rejections I have no idea.

Metaphor, are you sure you're a bass? No alto is going to sing a bass part! You sound a bit paranoid. Ban scissors from the Rehearsal space!

 

[Bomb#20]

Full confession: I'm a bass in my work choir, and I know some of those alto bitches can't wait to vocal fry their way down to D2 and take over and so I'm naturally afraid I'll lose my privileged position.
[/sarcasm]

Fify.

 

[Bomb#20]

Seems likely to me that the real problem is that the girls choir was an afterthought and doesn't receive the same attention as the boys. Why that would result in more rejections I have no idea.

Even if the choirs are equally funded, there might be more rejections because more girls than boys are interested in choir.

 

[Gun Nut]

That's it! I am inspired now. I'm gonna sue Amazon for not hiring me as their new CEO on the grounds of skills and experience discrimination!

 

[Horatio Parker]

I couldn't find two exact versions, but these are pretty close for those who may be curious:

Ave Maria by Caccini, tho the arrangements are not identical:

Moscow Boys Choir


Girls Choir Petropolis (Brazil)


To my ear, boys voices sound a bit heavier, or thicker. But very much a difference IMO.

The girls are totally lip syncing btw...no way could they get that reverb on a windy hilltop!

 

[Metaphor]

Most listeners, which btw is not "all", can't tell the difference, but choir specialists can.

Seems likely to me that the real problem is that the girls choir was an afterthought and doesn't receive the same attention as the boys. Why that would result in more rejections I have no idea.

Metaphor, are you sure you're a bass? No alto is going to sing a bass part! You sound a bit paranoid. Ban scissors from the Rehearsal space!

It was a joke. I guessed that somebody would accuse me of being afraid of my loss of privilege to a woman.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Just for fun, Rameau's Hymne La Nuit. This version is from the movie Les Choristes, required viewing for anyone into choirs. Probably cheating with the basses...

 

[Horatio Parker]

Most listeners, which btw is not "all", can't tell the difference, but choir specialists can.

Seems likely to me that the real problem is that the girls choir was an afterthought and doesn't receive the same attention as the boys. Why that would result in more rejections I have no idea.

Metaphor, are you sure you're a bass? No alto is going to sing a bass part! You sound a bit paranoid. Ban scissors from the Rehearsal space!

It was a joke. I guessed that somebody would accuse me of being afraid of my loss of privilege to a woman.

Oh, I see. But please, choirs need basses even more than altos. Hold your head high!

 

[Toni]

Full confession: I'm a bass in my work choir, and I know some of those alto bitches can't wait to vocal fry their way down to D2 and take over and so I'm naturally afraid I'll lose my privileged position.
[/sarcasm]

Fify.

But did you, tho?

 

[Politesse]

I've been in a fair few choirs, and while I can definitely tell a boy's choir apart from a girl's choir pretty easily en masse, I also think it is fair to say that there is a lot of overt and sometimes ridiculous gender discrimination involved in the assignment of voice classes, and that there are not just many children, but indeed some adults, whose particular singing voices would not give me indication of their biological sex, let alone preferred gender, just by listening. I mean, I think most people could plug me as a tenor, but it's not as though I can't sing alto parts, and some of the guys in my section would be a lot harder to type if their singing was all you had to go by.

Perhaps blind auditions could resolve this? They are almost entirely what ended the gender apartheid in national orchestras, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for national choirs. The voice is an instrument like any other. I don't think it would result in exactly equal balance in the case of choirs, but it wouldn't give you an absolute cutoff either.

 

[Jarhyn]

I've been in a fair few choirs, and while I can definitely tell a boy's choir apart from a girl's pretty easily, I also think it is fair to say that there is a lot of overt and sometimes ridiculous gender discrimination involved in the assignment of voice classes, and that there are not just children, but indeed some adults, whose particular singing voices would not give me indication of their biological sex, let alone preferred gender, just by listening. I mean, I think most people could plug me as a tenor, but it's not as though I can't sing alto parts, and some of the guys in my section would be a lot harder to type if their singing was all you had to go by.

Perhaps blind auditions could resolve this? They are almost entirely what ended the gender apartheid in national orchestras, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for national choirs. The voice is an instrument like any other.

Oh snap! That's a pretty good idea. Yet another thread where we are to "Blind the Biased Eye".

 

[ruby sparks]

I've been in a fair few choirs, and while I can definitely tell a boy's choir apart from a girl's choir pretty easily en masse, I also think it is fair to say that there is a lot of overt and sometimes ridiculous gender discrimination involved in the assignment of voice classes, and that there are not just many children, but indeed some adults, whose particular singing voices would not give me indication of their biological sex, let alone preferred gender, just by listening. I mean, I think most people could plug me as a tenor, but it's not as though I can't sing alto parts, and some of the guys in my section would be a lot harder to type if their singing was all you had to go by.

Perhaps blind auditions could resolve this? They are almost entirely what ended the gender apartheid in national orchestras, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for national choirs. The voice is an instrument like any other. I don't think it would result in exactly equal balance in the case of choirs, but it wouldn't give you an absolute cutoff either.

Good suggestion.

Unlike banning state-run choirs, imo. Not sure why that should be done.