Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

[Toni]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!

I know I know. I’m a STEM person but I’m also sick of the rhetoric that only STEM careers are worthwhile.

 

[Jarhyn]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!

I know I know. I’m a STEM person but I’m also sick of the rhetoric that only STEM careers are worthwhile.

I guess my point was that degrees shouldn't only be "for careers".

There are a lot of creative folks, whose only limitations in the wonders and beauty they can create participate, and do of their own joy are the limitations of their understanding of the world and language and each other.

Consider Bobbie: Bobbie works at McDonalds as manager. It pays the bills, and it's work that, while she kind of hates, she loves her coworkers and community exposure. Even so, the folks at corporate will not promote Bobbie unless she proves she can get a degree, and hold to an accomplishment of that calibre.

So, Bobbie gets a degree.

Does Bobbie need a STEM degree? HELL NO! She is already a master of her trade, in fact, managing teenagers well enough to keep a store fully staffed.

Instead, we should consider that Bobbie may benefit everyone much more if she gets a degree in Art, working on sculptures.

What does that have to do with flipping burgers?

Nothing, of course.

But over the course of it, a great many buildings and spaces will be enriched by Bobbie's contribution not to flipping burgers but by the fantastic sculptures she makes and donates to the community, one or two of which might end up gracing the McDonald's parking lot.

And in the mean time, she gets to learn foreign languages (Spanish, so she is more fluent with some of the team members who happen to have immigrated), technical writing, some psychology, and maybe some philosophy, too.

In the process of getting a degree for personal edification, while it barely changes her JOB much at all, it dramatically increases her happiness with her own life, and increases her involvement with her community.

 

[Toni]

Or: Bobbi gets a degree in art, and in the course of her studies, learns Spanish, and becomes conversant in Arabic and Hmong. She begins to have some of her pieces shown in local galleries and does some side gigs in various arts communities. She participates in arts groups for youth, particularly those from immigrant communities. Through this work, she begins to help write grants and becomes a quite accomplished grants writer. Her program is utilized as an intervention/diversion program and helps youth find and express their creative talents and channels their talents into helping their communities. Eventually Bobbi is hired to direct programs at her community’s youth center and she eventually opens and manages her own successful gallery. She quits her gig at McDonalds after creating a mural, along with kids in one of her groups, on the cinderblock wall along the parking lot of her old work place

She is mentioned in the acceptance speech if one of her mentees who is receiving an award for set design. Interest and demand for her work increases. She is the new ‘It’ person in the arts. She endows scholarships for students pursuing careers in the arts. One of her pieces adorns the Libby of the newly constructed performance arts center.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's interesting that when someone brings up the existence of individuals within the classes of "barista" and "Uber drivers" who are idiots on the basis of immediate interactions with such idiots, that others immediately jump to thinking this describes or is intended to describe all baristas and Uber drivers.

it's almost as if some folks have some stereotypes on their minds... Or operate in the realm of stereotype in general.

Still, it would be a better world if ZERO of the baristas and Uber drivers I encountered asked me whether chemtrails were real.

I'm sure some such have been to college, and that the majority aren't dumb or uneducated.

What is clear is that if everyone were more able to pursue education, fewer baristas and Uber drivers would be uneducated and less likely to spout off crazy shit like chemtrails and flat-earth.

And getting them a useless degree won't change that. Plenty of educated people fall for the quacks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's interesting that when someone brings up the existence of individuals within the classes of "barista" and "Uber drivers" who are idiots on the basis of immediate interactions with such idiots, that others immediately jump to thinking this describes or is intended to describe all baristas and Uber drivers.

it's almost as if some folks have some stereotypes on their minds... Or operate in the realm of stereotype in general.

Still, it would be a better world if ZERO of the baristas and Uber drivers I encountered asked me whether chemtrails were real.

I'm sure some such have been to college, and that the majority aren't dumb or uneducated.

What is clear is that if everyone were more able to pursue education, fewer baristas and Uber drivers would be uneducated and less likely to spout off crazy shit like chemtrails and flat-earth.

And getting them a useless degree won't change that. Plenty of educated people fall for the quacks.

Still, fewer, and it takes a more persistent quack most times.

Even the exposure to people less likely to fall for Teh Stoopid is a boon in that direction.

And moreover, it's just nice to have things to talk about that aren't the front page of the least scholarly thing seen in the checkout aisle of the local bodega.

The social benefits of having a much larger proportion of the population who have read more than a single digit number of books is quite high

 

[steve_bank]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

So?

The left likes to use euphemisms. Sanders makes liberal ise of the word 'free'.

Why should an average wage earner supporting a family subsidize a degree for which the student has no hope of using it to make a living wage. Loan forgiveness is a euphemism for other people paying for it.

I can not imagine anyone on the left going on TV and saying 'I think taxpayers should support college tuition for everyone'. They say it should be free. The usuakl political bullshit.

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

 

[Toni]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

So?

The left likes to use euphemisms. Sanders makes liberal ise of the word 'free'.

Why should an average wage earner supporting a family subsidize a degree for which the student has no hope of using it to make a living wage. Loan forgiveness is a euphemism for other people paying for it.

I can not imagine anyone on the left going on TV and saying 'I think taxpayers should support college tuition for everyone'. They say it should be free. The usuakl political bullshit.

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

Massive student debt is just a euphemism for society failing to provide basic needs for its citizens.

 

[Toni]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

OMG. I know people who got degrees in STEM fields who had a hard time finding employment in those STEM fields! Nobody take STEM!

 

[bilby]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!

I know I know. I’m a STEM person but I’m also sick of the rhetoric that only STEM careers are worthwhile.

I was a software engineer. Now I drive a bus.

I am happier; And I am damn sure that I am making a lot of other people's lives directly easier, happier, and better.

I am not, however, adding anything like as much value for shareholders, a fact which causes me no loss of sleep whatsoever.

 

[Worldtraveller]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!

I know I know. I’m a STEM person but I’m also sick of the rhetoric that only STEM careers are worthwhile.

Same.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

Jebus, read my post in its context and comment on that, instead of an isolated statement.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

 

[Toni]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

 

[laughing dog]

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

First, why would you think that any PhD student took on debt to get their doctorate? Second, why would you think the average taxpayer (who is not the average American) would necessarily end up paying for any student debt?

 

[Jarhyn]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

This is one of the reasons I would love to go back to college: to fill a seat in a series of art courses; to fill a seat in a series of math courses.

Both because I wish to do and make something fundamentally beautiful

 

[Toni]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

I'm not stuffing anything. While degrees have certain values (and STEM degrees do have a higher value), the big problem is the modification of the work force, which has greatly impacted hiring. And college students have absolutely no influence with that. The Great Recession changed things... and computer automation continues to eat jobs. Wherever anyone works, I can bet there are fewer overhead positions at their workplace on average, and it isn't because the company is doing less work.

Kids these days are graduating with degrees worth less than what they used to be worth, at a cost much higher than they used to be, with a shrinking good paying job economy, where health care costs are so much more expensive, and housing is becoming well out of reach in so many regions. So many people want to judge todays grads using the model they grew up in. That world doesn't exist now... not remotely! Oh woah is the arts major... so is woah the science major that got a Master's Degree! These kids are all suffering from these conditions, regardless of their degree.

You know who some of the richest people/ highest paid people are? Creative people such as writers, artists, actors, musicians. Look around whatever space you are in now: Someone with an arts background helped design that.

You know what fields we urgently need more people in? Electricians, plumbers, carpenters.

You know who we really really need a lot more of but honestly aren’t funding positions? Mental health workers. Not just past his trusts, although those are urgently needed but also psychologists and social workers and counselors.

That’s just for starters.

Lots and lots of people I know in STEM fields are very burned out because they really need to have their creative and emotional needs met.

Crappy auto correct: not just PSYCHIATRISTS.

Thank you all for being kind and understanding what I thought I typed.

My phone hates me.

 

[atrib]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

So?

The left likes to use euphemisms. Sanders makes liberal ise of the word 'free'.

Why should an average wage earner supporting a family subsidize a degree for which the student has no hope of using it to make a living wage. Loan forgiveness is a euphemism for other people paying for it.

Because it is good for society. Our society is better with an educated populace, and not just educated in writing code or designing technology. We need teachers and poets and artists as much as we need engineers and programmers. Taxpayers also build and fund schools that their children do not attend, build roads they will never drive on, and fund research into technology they may never use in their lifetime. That is the cost of living in a civilized society.

I can not imagine anyone on the left going on TV and saying 'I think taxpayers should support college tuition for everyone'. They say it should be free. The usuakl political bullshit.

Should a PHD in art or musc history from Harvard be paid for by average Americans? I do not think so. As we speak stidents are still taking on debt with no idea or plan on how to pay it back.

Yes. Just as the society should pay for or subsidize an education in physics or engineering.

And for the record, a vast majority of PhD students in the US are funded by teaching and/or research assistantships, where they are expected to work, doing research and/or teaching classes, in return for a partial or full waiver of their tuition and a monthly stipend to live on. And a vast majority of PhD students do not attend Harvard.

 

[atrib]

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

That doesn't mean those liberal arts degrees will be put to any real use. I'm thinking of the daughter of someone I used to know. I don't remember the exact details but there were two degree options in the same basic field. She took the easier one--and then was surprised when nobody would hire her.

The degrees may not be directly put to use in getting a high-paying job, but the education they receive in achieving the degree stays with them the rest of their lives. We need artists and writers and history teachers as much as we need programmers and engineers.

 

[thebeave]

So, let's say we do provide at least some student loan forgiveness. What happens going forward? Are we going to do it again in another 10 years, ad nauseum?