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Biden's Crusade Against Solar Panels and Electric Vehicles

Why is it bad for China to produce electric vehicles and solar panels?

  • Because it diverts needed resources away from their production of fentanyl.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Anything made in China is crap, by definition, however good it might be otherwise.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Clean energy technology is only an illusion if it's produced in China.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • We should trust Biden's experts who calculate that China is producing too much clean technology.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • If both Biden and Trump agree on this, it must be true.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • If it causes job loss to one American, it has to be bad, no matter what.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mistreating Uighurs obviously caused China to produce too much solar panels and EVs.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The U.S. President should decide how much of any product another country may produce.

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • U.S. labor unions should decide what China may produce and how much.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • America cannot be made great again unless China cuts its production of solar panels and EVs.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
When did cheap imports (from China or anywhere) ever hurt the economy?

Can't give one example from real history?

Only paranoia about what might happen? only hypotheticals?
Wow! Your grasp on history is tenuous at best.

Are you forgetting the decimation of the rust belt when a lot of manufacturing was moved offshore?
 
No matter what goes wrong -----
more trade barriers (especially China-bashing)
is always the right response.


Who invaded whom this week? What's the latest DISASTER?
What excuse can we find today to impose more trade sanctions/obstacles?

The short term cost savings and trade benefits are not worth it if we have to decouple from that country.
In a hypothetical world only. In the real world there's no example where any decoupling was necessary -- or, in a rare case where maybe it was necessary, there's no example where the economy was disrupted and made worse off than if there had never been the trade benefits. If there were any real example of such damage or threat, caused by the decoupling, someone could give a real example, instead of always the hypothetical cases and paranoia only.
You want a single instance of war disrupting the supply chain? This is probably the easiest question that I've been asked in a very long time.

So then, all trading is bad for the world, if there are any supply chains?

It's not that there's never any decoupling, or that it's absolutely never necessary. Let's assume that in some rare cases maybe some trade gets interrupted, out of necessity, because of a war or something. This hypothetical possibility is no argument against doing trade as much as it's possible, to each country's benefit, while conditions permit -- which is 99% of the time. Just because something might go wrong next year or in 10 or 20 years from now is no reason to cut off trade now and have a trade war with a country someone thinks might be a future "enemy" or threat to us.

In the above Ukraine-Russia case, maybe some products got disrupted. But that only means this trade will be replaced by a new system, so there's adjustments to the new system as the old system is decreased. But still that previous trade was good for everyone, and the change now does not negate the good which went on for such a long time earlier.

Likewise there's no reason to think Chinese EVs and solar panels are a threat to the U.S. only because something might change later, like China becoming a future threat we have to adjust to. No one can say what threat is posed by the EVs and solar panels (other than paranoid delusions that the Chinese might plant bombs in these products, or might use them to spy on us, maybe planting surveillance devices in them like they might already be planting in the clothing and radios and dolls as they scheme to hack into our computer to steal our income tax refund, or to send signals to hypnotize us or replace us with duplicates). Other than paranoia, no one can say how we're threatened by these products. And in case we really need to reduce some future trade, that doesn't negate the benefit of trading now, such as benefit from the EVs and solar panels and other good products. No one is explaining Biden's perception that these products pose a threat now (except that crybaby U.S. producers cannot compete with them).

Two fallacies with the "global supply chain" hysteria are that 1) usually the trade that's been happening need not really be disrupted (or not very much), regardless of the war or other crisis which might disrupt it; and 2) even if the trade has to be stopped, that doesn't change the benefit of trade which had happened for so long leading up to the change which now causes the end to it. It was still good to do that trading all those years prior to this change which now puts an end to it. You can't name a case where the trade really did damage to either economy, regardless of possible disruption later which might cause the trade to be ended. Just because something good comes to an end does not negate the benefit of it from earlier, i.e., does not turn something good into something evil. That earlier good thing was still good, even if now it comes to an end. Sometimes a good thing might come to an end as a new arrangement replaces the old. But that doesn't mean the previous good thing was not really good.
 
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So then, all trading is bad for the world, if there are any supply chains?

It's not that there's never any decoupling, or that it's absolutely never necessary. Let's assume that in some rare cases maybe some trade gets interrupted, out of necessity, because of a war or something. This hypothetical possibility is no argument against doing trade as much as it's possible, to each country's benefit, while conditions permit -- which is 99% of the time. Just because something might go wrong next year or in 10 or 20 years from now is no reason to cut off trade now and have a trade war with a country someone thinks might be a future "enemy" or threat to us.

In the above Ukraine-Russia case, maybe some products got disrupted. But that only means this trade will be replaced by a new system, so there's adjustments to the new system as the old system is decreased. But still that previous trade was good for everyone, and the change now does not negate the good which went on for such a long time earlier.

Likewise there's no reason to think Chinese EVs and solar panels are a threat to the U.S. only because something might change later, like China becoming a future threat we have to adjust to. No one can say what threat is posed by the EVs and solar panels (other than paranoid delusions that the Chinese might plant bombs in these products, or might use them to spy on us, maybe planting surveillance devices in them like they might already be planting in the clothing and radios and dolls as they scheme to hack into our computer to steal our income tax refund, or to send signals to hypnotize us or replace us with duplicates). Other than paranoia, no one can say how we're threatened by these products. And in case we really need to reduce some future trade, that doesn't negate the benefit of trading now, such as benefit from the EVs and solar panels and other good products. No one is explaining Biden's perception that these products pose a threat now (except that crybaby U.S. producers cannot compete with them).

Two fallacies with the "global supply chain" hysteria are that 1) usually the trade that's been happening need not really be disrupted (or not very much), regardless of the war or other crisis which might disrupt it; and 2) even if the trade has to be stopped, that doesn't change the benefit of trade which had happened for so long leading up to the change which now causes the end to it. It was still good to do that trading all those years prior to this change which now puts an end to it. You can't name a case where the trade really did damage to either economy, regardless of possible disruption later which might cause the trade to be ended. Just because something good comes to an end does not negate the benefit of it from earlier, i.e., does not turn something good into something evil. That earlier good thing was still good, even if now it comes to an end. Sometimes a good thing might come to an end as a new arrangement replaces the old. But that doesn't mean the previous good thing was not really good.
"Maybe some, maybe some". Like the upheaval of the entire energy sector? Is that "maybe some"?
And when you might consider a country becoming a "future threat" and when others do must be vastly different. When is a country a threat? When the missiles start to fly? Is this when we should start considering changes to our supply chain?

Well it's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is companies are doing this on their own in many cases, not being forced by the government. They see what you will not and they are spending the resources to make changes now.

We know who our friends are, who has dealt with us honestly over the years and who has not. Who has cheated, lied, and stolen from us at every turn and who has not. And it's not just EVs and solar panels. And it's not just the US. It is products across the board and it is friendly nations around the world. It looks like New Zealand is the latest to recognize the "threat".
 
No matter what goes wrong -----
more trade barriers (especially China-bashing)
is always the right response.


Who invaded whom this week? What's the latest DISASTER?
What excuse can we find today to impose more trade sanctions/obstacles?

The short term cost savings and trade benefits are not worth it if we have to decouple from that country.
In a hypothetical world only. In the real world there's no example where any decoupling was necessary -- or, in a rare case where maybe it was necessary, there's no example where the economy was disrupted and made worse off than if there had never been the trade benefits. If there were any real example of such damage or threat, caused by the decoupling, someone could give a real example, instead of always the hypothetical cases and paranoia only.
You want a single instance of war disrupting the supply chain? This is probably the easiest question that I've been asked in a very long time.

So then, all trading is bad for the world, if there are any supply chains?

It's not that there's never any decoupling, or that it's absolutely never necessary. Let's assume that in some rare cases maybe some trade gets interrupted, out of necessity, because of a war or something. This hypothetical possibility is no argument against doing trade as much as it's possible, to each country's benefit, while conditions permit -- which is 99% of the time. Just because something might go wrong next year or in 10 or 20 years from now is no reason to cut off trade now and have a trade war with a country someone thinks might be a future "enemy" or threat to us.

In the above Ukraine-Russia case, maybe some products got disrupted. But that only means this trade will be replaced by a new system, so there's adjustments to the new system as the old system is decreased. But still that previous trade was good for everyone, and the change now does not negate the good which went on for such a long time earlier.

Likewise there's no reason to think Chinese EVs and solar panels are a threat to the U.S. only because something might change later, like China becoming a future threat we have to adjust to. No one can say what threat is posed by the EVs and solar panels (other than paranoid delusions that the Chinese might plant bombs in these products, or might use them to spy on us, maybe planting surveillance devices in them like they might already be planting in the clothing and radios and dolls as they scheme to hack into our computer to steal our income tax refund, or to send signals to hypnotize us or replace us with duplicates). Other than paranoia, no one can say how we're threatened by these products. And in case we really need to reduce some future trade, that doesn't negate the benefit of trading now, such as benefit from the EVs and solar panels and other good products. No one is explaining Biden's perception that these products pose a threat now (except that crybaby U.S. producers cannot compete with them).

Two fallacies with the "global supply chain" hysteria are that 1) usually the trade that's been happening need not really be disrupted (or not very much), regardless of the war or other crisis which might disrupt it; and 2) even if the trade has to be stopped, that doesn't change the benefit of trade which had happened for so long leading up to the change which now causes the end to it. It was still good to do that trading all those years prior to this change which now puts an end to it. You can't name a case where the trade really did damage to either economy, regardless of possible disruption later which might cause the trade to be ended. Just because something good comes to an end does not negate the benefit of it from earlier, i.e., does not turn something good into something evil. That earlier good thing was still good, even if now it comes to an end. Sometimes a good thing might come to an end as a new arrangement replaces the old. But that doesn't mean the previous good thing was not really good.
Is it really “bashing” to be suspicious of a country that threatens to go to war with us? And if China did go to war with the: how would trade work? Is there a single example in history of two countries at war; and yet they continued legally trading with each other? (I’m not talking about black market trading).
 
Is it really “bashing” to be suspicious of a country that threatens to go to war with us?
It's "bashing" China to insist that everything from China has to be condemned, such as their solar panels and EVs. The possibility of military confrontation doesn't make everything Chinese a threat to us. In every war there is still some exchange between those warring countries, and there's no evidence that the trade was contaminated because there was a war. In the Civil War the South still produced cotton and sold it (some even to the North), to the benefit of all sides, buyers and sellers. When there were embargoes or curtailing of the trade, everyone was made worse off by it. Though it may be that some of the North embargo effort worked as a war strategy, any idea of curtailing the trade even BEFORE the war had no legitimacy to it. There's no reason to believe that earlier trade happening up to the war was detrimental or did net damage to anyone, regardless of the later decline of the trade.

The most aggressive use of anti-trade policy was that of the Confederacy using its cotton power to intimidate other countries into supporting it, which backfired, making the South worse off. Those who use trade aggressively to pressure or punish other countries end up shooting themselves in the foot, doing their own cause more harm than good. E.g., Napoleon and his idiotic blockade of England. The best policy almost always is to leave trade alone as much as possible, and everyone benefits from the trade, despite the economic benefit the enemy might gain, which is offset by the benefits to one's own side.

There's no provable case where the trade was a net detriment to either side. Rather, it's only paranoia and hate and primitive ultra-nationalist instinct which drives the fanatics on either side to demand an end to the trade.


And if China did go to war with the: how would trade work?
Same as it worked successfully in all previous wars when it was allowed to continue and the fanatics and paranoids on both sides were rebuffed in favor of pragmatism.


how would trade work?
translation: We're going to war with China pretty soon = WW3, and so since both countries are going to nuke each other out of existence, it's bad for China to produce solar panels and EVs. And to get ready for this annihilation we need to put more workers into auto production and steel production, even though there's no shortage of steel or auto production.

If you're a die-hard China-basher fanatic that makes sense.


Is there a single example in history of two countries at war; and yet they continued legally trading with each other? (I’m not talking about black market trading).
Some trade continued in most cases, and in all cases the trade that did continue was good for both countries -- both the legal and illegal trade. And when the trade was penalized, that did damage to both countries. And it was especially bad for everyone if the trade was cut off only out of fear of a future war. Curtailing trade for fear that a war is coming never did any good, but only damage to both sides. You can't name a case where the economy was made better by penalizing trade, even if something like a war made it necessary eventually to discontinue some trade.

At some point you have to set aside your paranoia and hate and fanatic China-bashing populism and just look at the facts. China is producing some good products here which are being condemned by the Biden-Trump China-bashers, even though they can't name one threat or damage from these products. Instead they pander to the whining crybaby auto and steel producers, especially the uncompetitive wage-earners who are hysterical over the fact of their declining value in the market. It's obviously these uncompetitive producers, losing more and more of their value, who are driving the China hate, out of fear of the more competitive Chinese products, using cheap labor and other cost savings. Reducing the cost is a legitimate and fundamental principle of market economics, from which 100% of the population, all consumers, benefit. If you reject the principle of cost savings, you reject higher living standard as something of value.

These Chinese products, especially the EVs, are not only lower in price to consumers, but also are top quality, on a par with the competition. It's only this competitiveness which makes them hated, not anything practical. No one has named anything negative about these products other than the fact that they are more competitive. All the rest is paranoia and hate -- it's shameful that the American public lets itself be stampeded and rallied around these uncompetitive crybabies, pretending that there's some economic need for preserving their uncompetitive jobs and propping them up as a national religious symbol of some kind. There is nothing sacred or holy or patriotic about steel workers and auto workers. All workers/producers rewarded by the market based on supply-and-demand are equally legitimate for the economy, with none somehow needing to be artificially propped up as if they're superior to all the others, like we're propping up the uncompetitive crybaby steel workers and auto workers, as symbolic icons with privileged status, to which higher status they are maintained at the expense of everyone else.

The way we prop up these less competitive auto and steel producers imposes a cost onto all the other workers/producers, in the form of higher prices to all consumers = INFLATION, driving down their standard of living in order to artificially prop up the benefits to the less competitive wage-earners we're supposed to feel sorry for because of their declining value in the overall economy. This 99% of the population, the consumers, are just as legitimate in production as the auto and steel workers, having no inferior status to them, and no responsibility to absorb higher cost and lower living standard as a price to pay for propping up these less competitive but privileged auto and steel workers whose value is declining and who whine that they're entitled to be subsidized at the expense of the more competitive producers.
 
We do not need an actual war to understand how supply chain issues affect multiple industries and many, many people and yes, drive up costs which cause sea inflation and which harms consumers. We just had a major pandemic that demonstrated that and still has some ripples throughout the economy.

Shipping goods and supplies long distances increases costs and is detrimental to the environment. Cheap goods ( think fast fashion) increase environmental harm. Slave labor is indefensible.
 
I'm rather disappointed and nervous about Biden's 100% China EV tariff. It makes little sense to me. Unless the goal is for Biden to get Chinese manufacturing cars over in the US. China shouldn't be allowed to dump cheap ass shit into the US, but if they are actually leading the planet in development of such tech, why are they being punished as such?
 
I'm rather disappointed and nervous about Biden's 100% China EV tariff. It makes little sense to me. Unless the goal is for Biden to get Chinese manufacturing cars over in the US. China shouldn't be allowed to dump cheap ass shit into the US, but if they are actually leading the planet in development of such tech, why are they being punished as such?
This is just speculation on my part but it occurs to me that the tariffs might be to discourage theft of intellectual property

Reasons that China is able to reduce consumer goods so cheaply include its disregard for the environment and its use of what could be called slave labor. Both need to be discouraged.
 
I'm rather disappointed and nervous about Biden's 100% China EV tariff. It makes little sense to me. Unless the goal is for Biden to get Chinese manufacturing cars over in the US. China shouldn't be allowed to dump cheap ass shit into the US, but if they are actually leading the planet in development of such tech, why are they being punished as such?
This is just speculation on my part but it occurs to me that the tariffs might be to discourage theft of intellectual property

Reasons that China is able to reduce consumer goods so cheaply include its disregard for the environment and its use of what could be called slave labor. Both need to be discouraged.
I'm not certain our reliance on cheap Chinese labor is going to be impacted too much by this tariff. Because if it is, the jobs will just shift to even cheaper locations. *sigh*
 
U.S. lead in manufacturing
lead in worker productivity


I want to mention a book promoted frequently by Thom Hartmann, who is probably the foremost "Progressive" radio talk show host and also foremost Left Populist pundit promoter of Protectionist trade policy.

Entrepreneurial Nation: Why Manufacturing is Still Key to America's Future

by Ro Khanna

There are two points to note about this. The book makes the case for the U.S. as the global leader in manufacturing, despite some loss of manufacturing to other countries, showing that this trend will continue, with the U.S. staying ahead of all other nations.

There is nothing to show that any protectionist measures are to be credited for this advancement of U.S. dominance in manufacturing. U.S. leadership in manufacturing will continue, without any need for protection against foreign competition, including from China or other nations who "cheat" by using cheap labor. Trump and other demagogues who give this crybaby complaint against poor countries (like China, which really is poor by most standards), never point out that the manufacturing jobs in those countries are usually among the highest-paying jobs in those countries, even though they would be "cheap labor" by the standards of the U.S. and other developed nations.

The obvious truth or economic reality of this is that most manufacturing jobs are better done -- more efficiently to the benefit of consumers -- in those poor countries where there is a greater labor supply and there are cost efficiencies which the developed countries could benefit from if they would stop incessantly pandering to the crybabies and let the competitive market do its job of serving the consumers.

The main argument of the book is that the U.S. does lead and will continue to lead, and there is no argument saying why any protectionist measures need play any role in this future progress of U.S. manufacturing. The only reduction is in the number of workers needed in manufacturing, which is interpreted by the bone-headed "Progressives" (Left) and Trumpists (Right) as representing some supposed DECLINE in manufacturing, which it is not. It's just fine for the manufacturing sector to forge ahead with less and less need for the lower-level workers and more reliance on scientists and high-level engineers designing the computers and other technology to do the small work which the laborers are no longer needed for. This is progress, not decline.

The second point to note is that U.S. worker productivity is the highest in the world, which is just fine, and will probably continue, without the need to artificially prop up their wages still higher or the need for any federal protection of the low-level workers in the form of trade barriers against foreign competition. All the facts are that more competition makes the economy stronger, not weaker, because it forces companies to improve their performance.

And the higher U.S. worker productivity is not a result of those low-level workers being tougher and stronger and smarter and more patriotic or virtuous than those of the other competing nations, but rather a result of the better science and technology provided to them by the decision-makers of the companies, from those more highly educated and knowledgeable of the business and science and management of the resources. So our fantasies about the lower-level workers needing to be paid higher than their market value because the "U.S. worker" is some kind of special breed who outperforms their counterparts in Asia etc. is pure myth and delusion.

China is assuming its role of supplying the labor for the lower-level jobs, and will keep improving at the higher level also, like Japan has done. China is doing the smart thing by investing so much in the clean energy technology like solar panels and EVs., for which they should be praised instead of condemned by American demagogues Biden and Trump.

Rather than this demagoguery and pandering to the uncompetitive, the U.S. needs to assume its role of leadership at the higher levels of production, promoting more competition and more education of future scientists (many of whom come from Asia to the U.S.). But instead we're pandering to the lower-level labor union crybabies, as if their whining is the key to America's lead in world manufacturing production.
 
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We do not need an actual war to understand how supply chain issues affect multiple industries and many, many people and yes, drive up costs which cause sea inflation and which harms consumers. We just had a major pandemic that demonstrated that and still has some ripples throughout the economy.

Shipping goods and supplies long distances increases costs and is detrimental to the environment. Cheap goods ( think fast fashion) increase environmental harm. Slave labor is indefensible.
It was just recently Ford was storing thousands of F150 pickup trucks at Michigan International Speedway because they needed foreign made computer components that were delayed.
 
The obvious truth or economic reality of this is that most manufacturing jobs are better done -- more efficiently to the benefit of consumers -- in those poor countries where there is a greater labor supply and there are cost efficiencies which the developed countries could benefit from if they would stop incessantly pandering to the crybabies and let the competitive market do its job of serving the consumers.
A short sighted policy at best.
 
The obvious truth or economic reality of this is that most manufacturing jobs are better done -- more efficiently to the benefit of consumers -- in those poor countries where there is a greater labor supply and there are cost efficiencies which the developed countries could benefit from if they would stop incessantly pandering to the crybabies and let the competitive market do its job of serving the consumers.
A short sighted policy at best.
Hey, anyone remember Mao's "Four Pests" thing during the "Great Leap Forward?" Mao be like "we gotta get rid of these goddamned sparrows!"

Good times...
 
Some trade continued in most cases, and in all cases the trade that did continue was good for both countries --
I'd like to see a cite for this.
Well it’s just an absurd claim. Imagine a country under attack, fighting for its lives; but hey here comes another merchant ship from our enemy; shoot we’d better let it through; our boys are fighting bravely and dying; but hey we need the long term comparative trade; it’s a win win! That’s just crazy talk! If China attacks, any ship in the Asian waters will be in danger of being sunk. People at war don’t give a damn about the long term value that comes from comparative advantage
 
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The obvious truth or economic reality of this is that most manufacturing jobs are better done -- more efficiently to the benefit of consumers -- in those poor countries where there is a greater labor supply and there are cost efficiencies which the developed countries could benefit from if they would stop incessantly pandering to the crybabies and let the competitive market do its job of serving the consumers.
A short sighted policy at best.
Hey, anyone remember Mao's "Four Pests" thing during the "Great Leap Forward?" Mao be like "we gotta get rid of these goddamned sparrows!"

Good times...
Hmmm. Learn something new every day.
 
The obvious truth or economic reality of this is that most manufacturing jobs are better done -- more efficiently to the benefit of consumers -- in those poor countries where there is a greater labor supply and there are cost efficiencies which the developed countries could benefit from if they would stop incessantly pandering to the crybabies and let the competitive market do its job of serving the consumers.
A short sighted policy at best.
Hey, anyone remember Mao's "Four Pests" thing during the "Great Leap Forward?" Mao be like "we gotta get rid of these goddamned sparrows!"

Good times...
Hmmm. Learn something new every day.
Yeah, turns out that giving absolute power to megalomaniac ideologues who have no grasp of the wider implications of their simplistic policy decisions can be a bad idea.

Project 2025, anyone?
 
Some trade continued in most cases, and in all cases the trade that did continue was good for both countries --
I'd like to see a cite for this.
Well it’s just an absurd claim. Imagine a country under attack, fighting for its lives; but hey here comes another merchant ship from our enemy; shoot we’d better let it through; our boys are fighting bravely and dying; but hey we need the long term comparative trade; it’s a win win! That’s just crazy talk! If China attacks, any ship in the Asian waters will be in danger of being sunk. People at war don’t give a damn about the long term value that comes from comparative advantage
I thought so too but wanted to see what Lumpen came up with.
 
When did cheap imports (from China or anywhere) ever hurt the economy?

Can't give one example from real history?

Only paranoia about what might happen? only hypotheticals?
Wow! Your grasp on history is tenuous at best.

Are you forgetting the decimation of the rust belt when a lot of manufacturing was moved offshore?
and when production costs were reduced = lower prices (or lower price increases) = reduced inflation since the 1990s up to 2020 before the Pandemic. Yes, saving on costs does benefit 300 million consumers, while 2 or 3 million uncompetitive factory workers need to adjust, and some uncompetitive factories are shut down. Ever heard of change? progress? adaptation?

The question is: when did it hurt the economy? the overall economy?

Just because a few uncompetitive producers have to adjust does not mean the net economy is made worse.
 
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