Billionaires Blast off

[Harry Bosch]

Bezos is donating $200M to the Smithsonian, so it’s not like he’s only spending his fortune on himself. I don’t understand all the hate for these rocket flights. We don’t know who it will inspire or what technological advancements may come. What should he do, ride around the Mediterranean on a super yacht doing very unsavory things like some other super rich folks who have been in the news lately?

As a percentage of his wealth, $200M is what? Not that he is obligated to give a red cent to charity.

We don’t know if any technological advances will be shared either. Musk shares with NASA and has given permission for NASA to share with whomever.

No he should not ride around the Med in a super yacht. Now that he has discovered the joy of vast wealth, he should discover the joy of helping humanity. And if he can’t find it himself, he can look to his ex for help.

Would it change your mind if he increased his donations substantially?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Bezos is donating $200M to the Smithsonian, so it’s not like he’s only spending his fortune on himself. I don’t understand all the hate for these rocket flights. We don’t know who it will inspire or what technological advancements may come. What should he do, ride around the Mediterranean on a super yacht doing very unsavory things like some other super rich folks who have been in the news lately?

As a percentage of his wealth, $200M is what? Not that he is obligated to give a red cent to charity.

We don’t know if any technological advances will be shared either. Musk shares with NASA and has given permission for NASA to share with whomever.

No he should not ride around the Med in a super yacht. Now that he has discovered the joy of vast wealth, he should discover the joy of helping humanity. And if he can’t find it himself, he can look to his ex for help.

Would it change your mind if he increased his donations substantially?

Quite possibly. If an individual started with the mindset set of, how much does one person need to live comfortably and then based their charity off that, I would think better of him.
But to think of all the jobs my 500M dollar yacht is providing just doesn’t do it for me. I’d like to think I’d make better use of that money.

 

[ZiprHead]

That $900M that Bezos paid? That was a federal tax rate of 0.98%

No, it is not. There is no federal tax on ΔWealth. That ProPublica thinks there should be, is beside the point. It would be as silly as computing Bezos' "true tax rate" based on other new taxes proposed by people, for example the wealth tax propose by Sanders and Warren.

That the wealth of the Bezos type to be exempt from taxation was a choice made. That choice can be reversed. Banks recognize it. So can the government.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Would it change your mind if he increased his donations substantially?

Quite possibly. If an individual started with the mindset set of, how much does one person need to live comfortably and then based their charity off that, I would think better of him.
But to think of all the jobs my 500M dollar yacht is providing just doesn’t do it for me. I’d like to think I’d make better use of that money.

Would it surprise you if you knew that Bezos spent more on protecting the environment (something that most people don't care about anymore) than most countries? 10 billion. In one year. Equal to 8% of his wealth last year?

 

[Harry Bosch]

That $900M that Bezos paid? That was a federal tax rate of 0.98%

No, it is not. There is no federal tax on ΔWealth. That ProPublica thinks there should be, is beside the point. It would be as silly as computing Bezos' "true tax rate" based on other new taxes proposed by people, for example the wealth tax propose by Sanders and Warren.

That the wealth of the Bezos type to be exempt from taxation was a choice made. That choice can be reversed. Banks recognize it. So can the government.

It's really just a timing issue. Income is taxed yearly. Wealth is taxed at the federal level when it is realized (cashed). There are other taxes that are paid with every purchase (sales taxes). Importers pay a tariff tax when goods are received on the docks. Depending on fast the ship is, this tax may be paid 4 or 5 times a year.

 

[Elixir]

Maybe not in an authoritarian State, but in a representative democracy, it does should.

It doesn't change the fact that you're playing tax-the-outgroup.

Oh Puh-leeze. Rich people have been playing the tax-the-outgroup since day one. Except they play by different rules. Their rules are "Tax the living fuck out of them so they stay poor and ignorant and can't do anything about the primacy of us, the 0.0001%", whereas (speaking on behalf of the 99.9999%) the "tax-the-outgroup" I for which I advocate, is "have them pay the same share of income and wealth that everyone else does".
You can wring your hands, tear your hair and run about in circles, but your argument on behalf of the social Lords and Ladies you wish you were part of, fails on its own (lack of) merit.

 

[Canard DuJour]

Nobody particularly wants to pay taxes. But they do pay taxes.

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

If you spend more than you take in, you either have to borrow or inflate the money supply, or both. Both are dangerous to rely too much on,

No "either" about it. Govt spending more than it takes in expands the money supply by simple arithmetic and legally obligates govt to issue bonds. Barring a humungous trade surplus, that is the only source of debt-free money for a growing economy. No "theory" about it either:


View attachment 34603

Whether or when that causes inflation depends on real economic conditions. The IMF, even before Covid, estimate typical fiscal multipliers >1 for net govt spending, and lately urges 'Spend as much as you can,' IMF head urges governments worldwide.

so-called "Modern Monetary Theory" notwithstanding.

Indeed. Forget so-called "Modern Monetary Theory".

Individuals who are so rich they can buy govt policies.

Not really. Bezos could not even build HQ2 in Queens because a certain idiot congresswoman objected.

Yes really. Not on every occasion(*) but enough to have transformed society since about 1980.

(*occasion, not Ocasio)

They are a big part of why something like the Apollo programme is no longer politically possible.

Something like the Apollo program is not politically possible because of what politicians (and their constituents) want, not because Bezos et al are not paying a wealth tax.

That's right. And "what politicians (and their constituents) want" has been unduly influenced by relentless scaremongering about public spending and pro-privatisation propaganda funded by ultra-rich individuals who dislike public spending.

If Warren's tax plan were to pass, the Biden administration would not spend the extra ca. $300G that it may bring in on increasing the NASA budget but on the Biden administration priorities that help those whom they see as their constituency - free child/elder care, increased child tax credits, perhaps cancelling $50k in student debts for poetry or art history graduates of some small private liberal arts college.

If Bezos and Musk were not in this space, nobody would be.

NASA was in this space and beyond 50 years ago. It payed for itself and then some.

Or why we think we "can't afford" to tackle the existential threat of climate change.

As I said before, Musk creating Tesla did far more to combat climate change than all the resolutions AOC and the rest of the Squad proposed in Congress.
Her "Green New Deal" is not only ridiculously expensive (not even a small fraction of the $60T price tag could be funded even by stealing all the wealth of US billionaires ~($4.5T)!) but most of it (e.g. federal job guarantees) have nothing to do with climate. It is similar to Dems' $6T (later reduced to $3.5T) boondoggle that has the "infrastructure" moniker, but has nothing to do with infrastructure. The actual infrastructure spending i (almost) entirely contained in the much smaller bipartisan bill that may or may not go anywhere.

See, this here's what I'm talking about. Tesla is way too little too late. Programmes on the scale necessary to tackle an existential threat aren't happening because of these facile household budget arguments.

 

[Harry Bosch]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long. Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

 

[Canard DuJour]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long.

I hear people bitching about their spouses and children all day long. Doesn't mean they object on principle to their families.

Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

I had to google "501 c3s". No one's saying they're propaganda. They patently aren't sufficient to tackle climate change.

 

[Toni]

Would it change your mind if he increased his donations substantially?

Quite possibly. If an individual started with the mindset set of, how much does one person need to live comfortably and then based their charity off that, I would think better of him.
But to think of all the jobs my 500M dollar yacht is providing just doesn’t do it for me. I’d like to think I’d make better use of that money.

Would it surprise you if you knew that Bezos spent more on protecting the environment (something that most people don't care about anymore) than most countries? 10 billion. In one year. Equal to 8% of his wealth last year?

I've been an Amazon customer. I give fuck all for Bezos' environmental posturing. I see his packaging. I know how he treats venders and employees. I know his business practices.

Those billions of dollars are over time. So is the cumulative damage his business does the the environment.

Did you not notice that his big solution--the one he's surely funding research to discover is the BEST solution--is to send our garbage into space? Do you not get that he plans to make money off of that as well, by being the transporter for garbage into space?

The man can throw around money that is stupidly beyond what every single person on this entire forum can even dream of having, even if they pooled every resource with every friend and relative they have in the world--and not break a sweat or change one damn thing about how he lives, except to gain a little more adulation from those who are impressed by amounts of money bigger than they will ever see.

 

[Toni]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long. Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

Do you not know anyone under the age of 60? A LOT Of people care A LOT about clean air, clean water, clean oceans, climate change. I would have at least thought that you would have heard of Greta Thunberg who began her international environmental activism while a young teen.

Yes, most people are unaware or unable to grasp how their daily actions, undertaken innocently, contribute to climate change, pollution of waters and air, etc. Even fewer think about what is done to our soils or our ground waters. That doesn't mean they don't care to have a decent world to live in.

I say good for all of the billionaires who want to jump on board and help out. Yay for them. They also need to clean up their business model, model being a good environmental citizen in their private life, given their outsized public profiles and THEY NEED TO PAY FAIR TAXES. Ultimately, these issues will not be tackled effectively unless all of us work on them, and that means governmental funding and cooperation and laws and treaties.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Would it change your mind if he increased his donations substantially?

Quite possibly. If an individual started with the mindset set of, how much does one person need to live comfortably and then based their charity off that, I would think better of him.
But to think of all the jobs my 500M dollar yacht is providing just doesn’t do it for me. I’d like to think I’d make better use of that money.

Would it surprise you if you knew that Bezos spent more on protecting the environment (something that most people don't care about anymore) than most countries? 10 billion. In one year. Equal to 8% of his wealth last year?

Spent or is to spend? I'm getting hits on the fledgling Bezos Earth Fund. Whatever. Good. It's a start. But he could do more. He could do so much more. There's only so much fortune a person needs. The rest is just for showing off. If a billionaire cannot find it within themselves to use their vast wealth for the good of humanity, the government should impress it upon them.

 

[ZiprHead]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long. Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

The Heritage Foundation is a 501 c3. So is the Cato Institute and so are many others like them.

 

[bilby]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long. Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

Americans bitch about taxes. Europeans and Australasians generally don't (at least, not to anything close to the extent that Americans do).

That's because of the way tax is marketed. In the US, it's a huge evil and is highlighted as much as possible, so everyone is constantly aware of it. Go to a store, and add up the price tags, and then you have to calculate your tax to determine how much you've actually got to pay.

Every year, vast reams of paperwork and documentation are needed to generate an income tax return for the IRS.

In most of Europe, none of that applies. Unless you're very wealthy, you likely never need worry about income taxes - they appear as a line item on your payslips, but unless you think an error has been made, it's not necessary to do anything about it.

Price labels in shops indicate how much you will pay. Tax might be mentioned, or not; But again, you don't need to think about it at all.

Americans hate taxes because their system has trained them to be sensitive to taxes. Europeans don't, because theirs hasn't. Which is 'better' is an ideological question.

 

[Toni]

But most don't object on principle and can't secure tax breaks for themselves to fund lobbyists, think-tanks and propaganda.

I wanted to stop you here. You must be kidding. I hear people from bitching about their taxes all day long. Secondly, everyone can reduces their taxable income by donating to 501 c3's. I don't think that donations to think tanks and lobbyists are deductible though. If you have evidence for this, I'd like to see it. Finally, a lot of the 501c3's are amazing. They aren't propaganda. Many of them are tackling problems that most don't care about anymore (cleaning the oceans, climate change, and etc.) But they are incredibly important.

Americans bitch about taxes. Europeans and Australasians generally don't (at least, not to anything close to the extent that Americans do).

That's because of the way tax is marketed. In the US, it's a huge evil and is highlighted as much as possible, so everyone is constantly aware of it. Go to a store, and add up the price tags, and then you have to calculate your tax to determine how much you've actually got to pay.

Every year, vast reams of paperwork and documentation are needed to generate an income tax return for the IRS.

In most of Europe, none of that applies. Unless you're very wealthy, you likely never need worry about income taxes - they appear as a line item on your payslips, but unless you think an error has been made, it's not necessary to do anything about it.

Price labels in shops indicate how much you will pay. Tax might be mentioned, or not; But again, you don't need to think about it at all.

Americans hate taxes because their system has trained them to be sensitive to taxes. Europeans don't, because theirs hasn't. Which is 'better' is an ideological question.

Some Americans bitch about taxes. We don't all bitch about taxes. There has been an increase in bitching about taxes since Reagan and especially since a certain Aussie import started up business of disinformation here.

For most Americans, state and federal and SS taxes also appear as a line item on our paychecks and taxes. Some cities also impose wage taxes. There are also lines for health care/insurance, contributions to your retirement fund (aside from SS), and with my employer, if one chooses, once can also arrange that certain charitable donations are made directly from your paycheck to the charity and there's even a savings plan that pays actual interest. One can affect how much in taxes is withheld by claiming more or fewer dependents. Smart people are aware of what their likely tax burden will be and so minimize the amount they may be refunded or may, in some cases, have to pay additionally by so adjusting the number of dependents on their forms. It can be a bit tricky as the tax code does change and people do not often change their deductions unless there is a change in marital status or number of children, etc. For us, if we get a surprise--a larger than expected refund or tax bill, we make adjustments on our forms so that is less likely to happen.

You are expected to file for state and federal taxes each year. For most of our adult lives, we received a refund from the state and from the feds, usually small as we did our best to not provide any interest free loans to the government. Some years, we've had to pay more into our taxes but we've adjusted that so that we don't. Eventually, whenever the current administration is able to unfuckup the IRS as the previous guy did, we expect to get a federal return. We got a small state return already.

I won't lie: some people use expected tax refunds as a savings account and count on the annual refund.

We pay taxes otherwise, as well. In the US, most states and some cities set a sales tax that is collected at the point of sale and is in addition to the price marked on the item purchased. Some items are excluded, most often food and medications but some states also exclude clothing and some other items deemed necessary. That varies from state to state.

Americans like to complain about taxes but our tax burden is relatively small. We also do not get such well subsidized health care or education as most of the civilized world. I'd definitely be thrilled to pay more taxes for better health care access for all (my own is fantastic--everyone's should be so good) and affordable post secondary education and affordable preschool/day care. By affordable, I mean free for those who need it to be. Means tested, probably for all but I'd go free for everyone, as well. Income should not limit one's access to good health care and good education, both key to becoming self sufficient/contributing member of society.

 

[Jayjay]

Bezos had fuck all to do with my cell phone, thank you very much.

It was more like Steve Jobs and he's dead.

At least keep your oligarchs straight.

And I lived quite nicely without a cell phone for almost all of my life. Pretty sure I could do it again.

We have cell phones because of government funded research and government launched satellites.

The only feature of cell phones that requires "government launched satellites" is GPS, and it's not essential.

 

[Toni]

Bezos had fuck all to do with my cell phone, thank you very much.

It was more like Steve Jobs and he's dead.

At least keep your oligarchs straight.

And I lived quite nicely without a cell phone for almost all of my life. Pretty sure I could do it again.

We have cell phones because of government funded research and government launched satellites.

The only feature of cell phones that requires "government launched satellites" is GPS, and it's not essential.

That doesn't address the government research that allowed us to have cell phones.

GPS, touch screens, the internet were all developed by the DoD.
Google's algorithm was boosted by National Science Foundation research. Even Siri came out of government funded research.

Tesla's batteries came out of DoE's research.

 

[Jarhyn]

The only feature of cell phones that requires "government launched satellites" is GPS, and it's not essential.

That doesn't address the government research that allowed us to have cell phones.

GPS, touch screens, the internet were all developed by the DoD.
Google's algorithm was boosted by National Science Foundation research. Even Siri came out of government funded research.

Tesla's batteries came out of DoE's research.

As if the space program wasn't the origin of a large variety of radio frequency applications and answers to relativity that made GPS and tower triangulation possible.

 

[thebeave]

Let's not forget the contributions of Hedly Lamarr to the development of spread spectrum technology.

 

[ZiprHead]

Let's not forget the contributions of Hedly Lamarr to the development of spread spectrum technology.

"That's Hedy", said in Harvey Korman's voice.