Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[Toni]

It will not address what a prostitute is to do to earn a living after she tests positive with something incurable, such as HIV.

So? That's not an excuse not to do it either.

Speaking of which: you haven't addressed that, either.

Addressed what? People who get diseases should be treated by the healthcare system, regardless of how they got the diseases. People who can no longer work high paying low education jobs like sex work will have to get education or take low paying jobs like everybody else at their education and experience level at other jobs.

Remember, you have not shown that legalized prostitution increases these health or drug problems. The opposite could be true for all you know. But we do know what you have consistently avoided addressing, that criminalizing sex work endangers sex workers.

So, you would discard prostitutes who could no longer do sex work because of a disease they contracted while performing sex work.

That's what I thought.

- - - Updated - - -

It would also be a matter between industry groups and insurance companies. If legally working prostitutes have a lower rate of STDs and the average time working in the job only lasts a few years, it would probably be pretty affordable to get coverage.

Lower rate of STDs than who? Most people? No.

 

[laughing dog]

But we do know what you have consistently avoided addressing, that criminalizing sex work endangers sex workers.

No, it does not. Sex work endangers sex workers.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Addressed what? People who get diseases should be treated by the healthcare system, regardless of how they got the diseases. People who can no longer work high paying low education jobs like sex work will have to get education or take low paying jobs like everybody else at their education and experience level at other jobs.

Remember, you have not shown that legalized prostitution increases these health or drug problems. The opposite could be true for all you know. But we do know what you have consistently avoided addressing, that criminalizing sex work endangers sex workers.

So, you would discard prostitutes who could no longer do sex work because of a disease they contracted while performing sex work.

Discard? You equate not wanting them to spread disease as sex workers as discarding them? I said I would treat them like anybody else with a disease or like anybody else who can no longer do a job, like a miner injured to the point he can't go down in the mines or a pro athlete who can no longer compete.

Why do you equate that with "discarding"? Do you forget that I'm the one here advocating for single payer healthcare and universal basic income while you search for excuses not to try?

Also, you keep dodging the bolded.

 

[laughing dog]

Also, you keep dodging the bolded.

There is nothing to dodge because your claim is vacuous: sex work endangers sex workers regardless of its legal status.

 

[LordKiran]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

The answer is the same as for any other industry.

What happens to a miner who injures himself at work, and can no longer work in the mines?

He finds another job. Or he suffers unemployment - in the civilised world, with disability payments from the government, or from the employer under whose watch he became incapacitated, or both.

Nobody is guaranteed work in their chosen profession; if sickness or injury stops them from being able to do it, they need to retrain, or go onto a disability pension.

If the injury or illness was acquired at work, their employer may be required to pay compensation, or to fund their payments.

Really, this is a non-issue (other than in the insane world of US employment, where healthcare is tied to employment, and people who can't work are told 'tough shit, fuck off').

Civilised countries don't have that problem. That's likely why nobody's seen fit to address this supposedly insurmountable issue so far in this thread: Civilisation is kinda assumed.

You say that like I don't know that. I think it went without saying that this issue is specific to the country I live in.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So? That's not an excuse not to do it either.



Addressed what? People who get diseases should be treated by the healthcare system, regardless of how they got the diseases. People who can no longer work high paying low education jobs like sex work will have to get education or take low paying jobs like everybody else at their education and experience level at other jobs.

Remember, you have not shown that legalized prostitution increases these health or drug problems. The opposite could be true for all you know. But we do know what you have consistently avoided addressing, that criminalizing sex work endangers sex workers.

So, you would discard prostitutes who could no longer do sex work because of a disease they contracted while performing sex work.

That's what I thought.

What do you mean "discard"? If a teacher isn't allowed into a classroom because she has an infectious disease she could pass onto her students, is that teacher being discarded? If a welder can't weld anymore because he lost his hand in a workplace accident, is that welder being discarded? That's not what the word means.

Is your position that a prostitute with an STD should be having sex with customers? If not (and it isn't), then your position on this matter is absolutely no different than anybody else's.

- - - Updated - - -

It would also be a matter between industry groups and insurance companies. If legally working prostitutes have a lower rate of STDs and the average time working in the job only lasts a few years, it would probably be pretty affordable to get coverage.

Lower rate of STDs than who? Most people? No.

I meant lower than unregulated sex workers. The questions would be what the rate is of STD infection of licensed prostitutes and how long does the average prostitute work in the industry and have those numbers plugged into an actuarial table. There wouldn't be any significant differences between this and any other kind of insurance.

 

[Toni]

What do you mean "discard"? If a teacher isn't allowed into a classroom because she has an infectious disease she could pass onto her students, is that teacher being discarded? If a welder can't weld anymore because he lost his hand in a workplace accident, is that welder being discarded? That's not what the word means.

Is your position that a prostitute with an STD should be having sex with customers? If not (and it isn't), then your position on this matter is absolutely no different than anybody else's.

- - - Updated - - -

It would also be a matter between industry groups and insurance companies. If legally working prostitutes have a lower rate of STDs and the average time working in the job only lasts a few years, it would probably be pretty affordable to get coverage.

Lower rate of STDs than who? Most people? No.

I meant lower than unregulated sex workers. The questions would be what the rate is of STD infection of licensed prostitutes and how long does the average prostitute work in the industry and have those numbers plugged into an actuarial table. There wouldn't be any significant differences between this and any other kind of insurance.

Teachers and welders have degrees, licensures and certifications that document their skills and expertise that are easily transferable to other lines of work. They also likely have pensions and retirement plans that are portable.

Is there actual reliable data on rates of STI’s for licensed vs unlicensed sex workers? Extremely doubtful...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ask for a work number. Call it, speak to them.

Assuming your response is serious, you just admitted the internet is not necessary for the vetting.

1) Yes, I'm being serious, it's a standard tactic.

2) Without the ability to check that name against a list of bad clients it's nowhere near as useful vetting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Eh, give it another decade. I wanna see how things go in Europe before we commit to following suit. As it stands and in light of our current political climate I can't say with any confidence that legalization wouldn't just increase and enable predation. I think its really telling that it's been asked over and over again in this thread:

"What happens to a prostitute if she contracts a disease and can no longer work?" The lack of an answer tells me that there isn't one, and that the participants here aren't particularly interested in his/her lasting welfare which I fully expect to be reflected in any kind of legislation, because legalization is for the consumer and the proprietor, not the worker.

I already answered this--workman's comp coverage.

What plane of existence are you on because it certainly is not this one. Workman's comp is inadequate in most cases when the employer does not fight it. I can just imagine the hoops a prostitute would have to go through in order to prove she/he contracted the disease through work.

Then fix workers comp.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That you have done it badly is no excuse not to do it.

Everyone does it badly.

UHC is inherently a case of putting the fox in charge of the henhouse.

 

[laughing dog]

Then fix workers comp.

Of course, it is as easy as snapping one's fingers or waving one's magic wand.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Also, you keep dodging the bolded.

There is nothing to dodge because your claim is vacuous: sex work endangers sex workers regardless of its legal status.

Work endangers workers. Period.

Anyway, the question is whether they are in greater danger if sex work is legal or illegal--and the evidence we has says legal is safer. There's a reason it's called the world's oldest profession, it's not going to simply go away because you wish it to be gone.

 

[Toni]

What plane of existence are you on because it certainly is not this one. Workman's comp is inadequate in most cases when the employer does not fight it. I can just imagine the hoops a prostitute would have to go through in order to prove she/he contracted the disease through work.

Then fix workers comp.

Or how about treating girls and women well enough that they are able to get the education, training, and jobs that they need to make their own way in life and don’t have to spread their legs for random strangers 4-10 times a day.

 

[bilby]

What plane of existence are you on because it certainly is not this one. Workman's comp is inadequate in most cases when the employer does not fight it. I can just imagine the hoops a prostitute would have to go through in order to prove she/he contracted the disease through work.

Then fix workers comp.

Or how about treating girls and women well enough that they are able to get the education, training, and jobs that they need to make their own way in life and don’t have to spread their legs for random strangers 4-10 times a day.

That's essentially already been done here. Prostitution still exists.

It's MUCH more expensive, and commensurately more lucrative for those who choose to do it. Most prostitutes in legal work in my state are far better educated than the average citizen. Lots of them are students - it's a very well paid job, and has much more flexible working hours than most opportunities available to students.

Your idea that not one woman would ever choose prostitution as a job in the absence of compulsion is demonstrably false. People will do anything if the pay is good enough. And no matter how unpleasant YOU might imagine any job to be, you will find some people who want to do it, who enjoy doing it, and who will not thank you for trying to save them from their freely made choices.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Teachers and welders have degrees, licensures and certifications that document their skills and expertise that are easily transferable to other lines of work. They also likely have pensions and retirement plans that are portable.

1. You may be surprised how transferable many of the skills of a good sex worker are in other non-sexual jobs. It isn't just sex. Its sales, security precautions, street smarts, and much more. It isn't on her resume, partly because its pushed underground and made illegal or otherwise shunned by folks like yourself.

2. Sex work is used by many sex workers to GET that degree you speak of. We're not all born with money. Sex work often means making way more money than a person otherwise could, which means ability to pay tuition they otherwise couldn't. I know ex-sexworkers who now own their own hair salons, bars, one who is a lawyer now and others who have college degrees they would not have gotten if not for sex work.

3. Even if a sex worker at the end of her sexwork career hasn't learned transferable skills and doesn't have a degree when she ends her sexwork career, that's not unique. Take professional athletes for example. Smart people in these sorts of careers know they won't last forever and that their income at it will decrease quickly as they age. So smart ones avoid the fast life of buying expensive stuff and instead invest in their education or savings and investments. I know ex-strippers who did so well for themselves as strippers and lived as students while doing so, that they've invested and have retired from needing to work at all.

I know you've got it in your head that every sex worker is an unwilling trafficked Thai slave tied up in a crate, but that just isn't so.

4. If they fall into a state of having no skills, and no education, then they are alongside many others who were never sexworkers. If they have STDs they are also alongside many others who were never sex workers? Why should we treat them differently than those people? We should have social programs to help all of them, universal basic income for them, health care for them, etc.

5. If there are two people who grow up poor, one has no choice but to stay poor because there is no upward mobility and no options for him in your society, and the other can stay poor if she wants to with all the same bad options as the first person, or make a ton of money, but have to be a sex worker to make that money, which of the two is privileged?

6. You've yet again avoided showing any concern for sex workers put in greater danger because of anti-sexwork laws. I'm fairly certain you do not wish harm to these women, so why won't you acknowledge them?

 

[Toni]

Teachers and welders have degrees, licensures and certifications that document their skills and expertise that are easily transferable to other lines of work. They also likely have pensions and retirement plans that are portable.

1. You may be surprised how transferable many of the skills of a good sex worker are in other non-sexual jobs. It isn't just sex. Its sales, security precautions, street smarts, and much more. It isn't on her resume, partly because its pushed underground and made illegal or otherwise shunned by folks like yourself.

2. Sex work is used by many sex workers to GET that degree you speak of. We're not all born with money. Sex work often means making way more money than a person otherwise could, which means ability to pay tuition they otherwise couldn't. I know ex-sexworkers who now own their own hair salons, bars, one who is a lawyer now and others who have college degrees they would not have gotten if not for sex work.

3. Even if a sex worker at the end of her sexwork career hasn't learned transferable skills and doesn't have a degree when she ends her sexwork career, that's not unique. Take professional athletes for example. Smart people in these sorts of careers know they won't last forever and that their income at it will decrease quickly as they age. So smart ones avoid the fast life of buying expensive stuff and instead invest in their education or savings and investments. I know ex-strippers who did so well for themselves as strippers and lived as students while doing so, that they've invested and have retired from needing to work at all.

I know you've got it in your head that every sex worker is an unwilling trafficked Thai slave tied up in a crate, but that just isn't so.

4. If they fall into a state of having no skills, and no education, then they are alongside many others who were never sexworkers. If they have STDs they are also alongside many others who were never sex workers? Why should we treat them differently than those people? We should have social programs to help all of them, universal basic income for them, health care for them, etc.

5. If there are two people who grow up poor, one has no choice but to stay poor because there is no upward mobility and no options for him in your society, and the other can stay poor if she wants to with all the same bad options as the first person, or make a ton of money, but have to be a sex worker to make that money, which of the two is privileged?

6. You've yet again avoided showing any concern for sex workers put in greater danger because of anti-sexwork laws. I'm fairly certain you do not wish harm to these women, so why won't you acknowledge them?

Apparently you don't actually read what I write but I will try again:

I see no reason at all that law enforcement should not do their job and go after those who steal from, assault, rape and/or murder prostitutes or anyone else. Period.
I see no reason at all that anyone reporting such crimes is not taken seriously and their rights are not protected, whether or not they are a prostitute.

We all know that the health and safety concerns of prostitutes are not taken seriously now. They will not be taken seriously if prostitution were legalized everywhere. Why do I think this is so? Because the health and safety concerns of women in general are not taken seriously. A woman who reports a sexual assault is still scrutinized: what did she wear, how much did she drink, was she a virgin, had she had sex with the rapist willingly before, and so on.

 

[Toni]

Or how about treating girls and women well enough that they are able to get the education, training, and jobs that they need to make their own way in life and don’t have to spread their legs for random strangers 4-10 times a day.

That's essentially already been done here. Prostitution still exists.

It's MUCH more expensive, and commensurately more lucrative for those who choose to do it. Most prostitutes in legal work in my state are far better educated than the average citizen. Lots of them are students - it's a very well paid job, and has much more flexible working hours than most opportunities available to students.

Your idea that not one woman would ever choose prostitution as a job in the absence of compulsion is demonstrably false. People will do anything if the pay is good enough. And no matter how unpleasant YOU might imagine any job to be, you will find some people who want to do it, who enjoy doing it, and who will not thank you for trying to save them from their freely made choices.

You are quite mistaken: I never asserted that no woman would ever chose prostitution willingly. My concern has been about the thousands and millions who do not choose prostitution willingly. Instead, you, as others in this thread, have decided that you know what I think and what my opinions are and so you have no reason to actually....pay attention to what I say.

It pleases you all to believe the porn you watch that there are so many beautiful young women out there who just want to have fun with 3-10 different men 4 or 5 nights a week--although the woman you love (please note: I am not being specific to any individual here--I don't mean bilby's wife) and who loves you and to whom you are married is not willing or interested in having sex 20 times a week with you, for some odd reason. Only cranky uptight bitches would dare to suggest that there aren't dozens and hundreds and thousands of beautiful, intelligent, well educated young women willing to indulge whatever fantasies whichever random stranger is willing to pay for, despite the well known risks to health and safety. I mean, none of these women are not actually adult women, right? None of these women are lesbians who really don't care for dick--and even if they are lesbians, that's a turn on, right? They are all just so into sex that it doesn't matter if you are attractive to them, or nice to them, or recently showered, or anything other than willing to lay out whatever the fee for service is.

Because that's how people work.

 

[Toni]

Also, you keep dodging the bolded.

There is nothing to dodge because your claim is vacuous: sex work endangers sex workers regardless of its legal status.

Work endangers workers. Period.

Anyway, the question is whether they are in greater danger if sex work is legal or illegal--and the evidence we has says legal is safer. There's a reason it's called the world's oldest profession, it's not going to simply go away because you wish it to be gone.

What evidence would that be, Loren?

 

[Toni]

Teachers and welders have degrees, licensures and certifications that document their skills and expertise that are easily transferable to other lines of work. They also likely have pensions and retirement plans that are portable.

1. You may be surprised how transferable many of the skills of a good sex worker are in other non-sexual jobs. It isn't just sex. Its sales, security precautions, street smarts, and much more. It isn't on her resume, partly because its pushed underground and made illegal or otherwise shunned by folks like yourself.

2. Sex work is used by many sex workers to GET that degree you speak of. We're not all born with money. Sex work often means making way more money than a person otherwise could, which means ability to pay tuition they otherwise couldn't. I know ex-sexworkers who now own their own hair salons, bars, one who is a lawyer now and others who have college degrees they would not have gotten if not for sex work.

3. Even if a sex worker at the end of her sexwork career hasn't learned transferable skills and doesn't have a degree when she ends her sexwork career, that's not unique. Take professional athletes for example. Smart people in these sorts of careers know they won't last forever and that their income at it will decrease quickly as they age. So smart ones avoid the fast life of buying expensive stuff and instead invest in their education or savings and investments. I know ex-strippers who did so well for themselves as strippers and lived as students while doing so, that they've invested and have retired from needing to work at all.

I know you've got it in your head that every sex worker is an unwilling trafficked Thai slave tied up in a crate, but that just isn't so.

4. If they fall into a state of having no skills, and no education, then they are alongside many others who were never sexworkers. If they have STDs they are also alongside many others who were never sex workers? Why should we treat them differently than those people? We should have social programs to help all of them, universal basic income for them, health care for them, etc.

5. If there are two people who grow up poor, one has no choice but to stay poor because there is no upward mobility and no options for him in your society, and the other can stay poor if she wants to with all the same bad options as the first person, or make a ton of money, but have to be a sex worker to make that money, which of the two is privileged?

6. You've yet again avoided showing any concern for sex workers put in greater danger because of anti-sexwork laws. I'm fairly certain you do not wish harm to these women, so why won't you acknowledge them?

Sorry, but you don't know what I have in my head. You don't read what I write or understand what I write or simply chose to make assertions about me that bear no relationship to reality.

I'm sorry if Canada is the sort of place with no upward mobility and where if you are born poor and female your only choice at an education is to have sex with strangers for money. That is not an impression I ever had of Canada.

In the US, one can go to college many different ways, including academic scholarships, which is how I attended college as did and do many of my friends, children of friends, children's friends, my own children, etc. Also by working a lot of different kinds of work. Which I also did. The choice is not: be a prostitute and get an education or go without education. Even if you grew up poor. Not in the US. Just as: it's not a choice that if you are male, you must either deal drugs and get an education or go without an education and be poor your whole life.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We all know that the health and safety concerns of prostitutes are not taken seriously now.

I take their health and safety seriously. So do Tom, bilby, and others in this thread who have tried to tell you (as did the study you posted, flawed as it is; and does the Supreme Court of Canada and all the research we presented to them in the Bedord case) that sex workers are safer when sex work is decriminalized, and they can vet clients and work in safe environments. The question is do you take the health and safety concerns of prostitutes seriously, and if you do, why do you dismiss these concerns?