Bitcoin biting the dust?

[Swammerdami]

More gibberish

These things do not drive its value.

What drives the value of gold?? Scarcity There are plenty of boring non-shiny metals which are EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE than gold because they are even more Scarce.

Gold enjoyed it's exact value class long before electricity was understood.

So what? What does that have to do with anything I wrote? (And what is "exact value"?)

For 99.999%+ of human history, the exclusive value of gold was "shiny baubles".

Wrong again. Like it or not, gold was useful as money.

 

[Jarhyn]

of boring non-shiny metals which are EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE than gold because they are even more Scarce

Which isn't "shiny baubles".

I might add one of the more important features of a bearer currency is in fact that there is no "consumer use" of it.

 

[Jarhyn]

And what is "exact value"?

It's exact value *class*, as in the properties that make it a good currency.

It's shiny and otherwise useless. Those real properties make it so. Bitcoin has many of the same features and ultimately FIAT currency has almost exactly the same features as Bitcoin.

Gold has the same general value class as platinum or silver: corrosion resistant shinies.

 

[Swammerdami]

And what is "exact value"?

It's exact value *class*, as in the properties that make it a good currency.

It's shiny and otherwise useless. Those real properties make it so.

I don't think "uselessness" is prerequisite for the use of something as money! Peppercorns and tobacco are "useful" (and non-shiny) but have been used as money. Gold and silver have been used for jewelry even when also used as money. Somebody thought the jewelry was "useful."

Bitcoin has many of the same features and ultimately FIAT currency has almost exactly the same features as Bitcoin.

I don't think so, but my opinion counts for little here.

Gold has the same general value class as platinum or silver: corrosion resistant shinies.

The main use of platinum -- accounting for 50% -- is in catalytic converters. I'm not a chemist: Is the shininess useful to the catalysis? Platinum has a variety of other non-jewelry uses, including in cancer treatment:  Platinum-based antineoplastic.

I am somewhat baffled by the animosity expressed against gold, and against those who buy gold as an investment or hedge. Central banks have been net buyers of gold in recent years to the tune of 1000+ tonnes per annum! These bankers -- who are "hard-nosed" financial experts -- believe the gold helps provide their currency with stability and in particular security and liquidity in the event of crisis. The central banks or governments of Italy, France, Russia and China each possess about $200 billion in gold bullion. Three entities have even larger holdings: the IMF, Germany and, with a whopping $680 billion in gold bullion, the U.S. of A. The large purchases by central banks may be a main reason for the surge in prices. If these hard-nosed bankers think buying gold is wise I won't argue.

(I realize that IIDB is an abbreviation for "Let's Assume the Worst and Leap to Conclusions" and some of you probably think that I'm making money with (or have become deluded by) some YouTube channel that pimps over-priced gold medallions! Nope. I've turned over almost all my meager savings to my children and nag them once a month to come up with an investment plan: real estate, ETFs, whatever. I do wish we'd bought more gold when it was cheap but have no desire to buy or sell now.)

 

[Elixir]

A material that doesn’t tarnish or oxidize, can be wrought without heat, can be alloyed with other materials and retain it’s properties, can used to electroplate or hammered into extremely thin foil and applied to other materials, giving almost any surface a super rich appearance … sounds like some expensive stuff to me. Even without its conductive properties.

 

[Jarhyn]

A material that doesn’t tarnish or oxidize, can be wrought without heat, can be alloyed with other materials and retain it’s properties, can used to electroplate or hammered into extremely thin foil and applied to other materials, giving almost any surface a super rich appearance … sounds like some expensive stuff to me. Even without its conductive properties.

"Shiny baubles".

 

[Elixir]

A material that doesn’t tarnish or oxidize, can be wrought without heat, can be alloyed with other materials and retain it’s properties, can used to electroplate or hammered into extremely thin foil and applied to other materials, giving almost any surface a super rich appearance … sounds like some expensive stuff to me. Even without its conductive properties.

"Shiny baubles".

The stuff of dreams.

 

[bilby]

What drives the value of gold??

Psychology. The expectation that it will grow in value.

Scarcity is a weird thing to claim for a metal that is sitting in storage in massive stockpiles, unused and unlikely ever to be used.

If gold is scarce, why is so much of it (as a proportion of the total ever mined) sitting around unused, untouched, and un-looked-at in Fort Knox and other similar warehouses?

There are plenty of boring non-shiny metals which are EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE than gold because they are...

... unlike gold, both scarce and useful.

We don't use them as money though. Gold is good for money, because it isn't very useful for anything else.

Fiat money is even better, because it isn't useful at all for anything else.

 

[bilby]

I don't think "uselessness" is prerequisite for the use of something as money!

That's very clear.

You should probably work on that, because it's a rookie error.

Peppercorns and tobacco are "useful" (and non-shiny) but have been used as money.

They are not very good to use for money though, for the obvious reason that they are frequently consumed instead of being spent. Their use as money has consequently never been widespread.

 

[bilby]

I am somewhat baffled by the animosity expressed against gold

I am somewhat baffled by your emotional response here. I certainly have no animosity towards gold; Your attitude is that of a priest having the existence of his god questioned.

I don't hate gold, any more than I hate God.

I just don't ascribe supernatural value to either.

That you percieve that failure as 'animosity' is a huge red flag, and should make you stand back and take a long hard look at what you believe, and why.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am somewhat baffled by the animosity expressed against gold

I am somewhat baffled by your emotional response here. I certainly have no animosity towards gold; Your attitude is that of a priest having the existence of his god questioned.

I don't hate gold, any more than I hate God.

I just don't ascribe supernatural value to either.

That you percieve that failure as 'animosity' is a huge red flag, and should make you stand back and take a long hard look at what you believe, and why.

To be fair, shiny baubles of a particular quality are, as by the diamond cartels, a mark of exceeding wealth.

 

[Bomb#20]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Well, that's a pretty awesome thing for a kind of money to have going for it. Show us a fiat currency that can do the same.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a big difference in the voting power of A and B shares.

Sure, it’s scaled to the share price.

Berkshire Hathaway: Class A vs. Class B Stock

A memo from Warren Buffett regarding BRK.A vs. BRK.B share classes

brkshr.com

Price difference: 1,500:1. Voting difference: 10,000:1

If that’s right I was wrong. Fractional A shares are available from brokers, so why buy B shares?

Because A shares are simply too big for the average investor. And the voting difference means that Buffet (who has a whole lot of A) has an outsized vote.

 

[Swammerdami]

You aren't funny; You aren't kind; And you aren't anywhere close to being as smart as you think you are, despite your being smart enough that you rarely encounter people as smart as you or smarter. All
of which gives other people a dim view of your condecension and rudeness. I know this, because that was me, too. It took me many decades to (mostly) grow out of it.

Now, can we drop the pissing contest, and try to be courteous and charitable towards each other - and given that we have a lot in common, and are both highly intelligent autists, maybe even become friends - or should we just agree to ignore each other?

I thought your suggestion that we be friends might be sincere. I guess I was wrong.

I am somewhat baffled by the animosity expressed against gold

I am somewhat baffled by your emotional response here. I certainly have no animosity towards gold; Your attitude is that of a priest having the existence of his god questioned.

I don't hate gold, any more than I hate God.

I just don't ascribe supernatural value to either.

That you percieve that failure as 'animosity' is a huge red flag, and should make you stand back and take a long hard look at what you believe, and why.

The claim that money must be "useless" is patently absurd. To take one of the most obvious examples, during the mid 1940's much of the paper money in Western Europe was inflating so rapidly that it indeed became almost useless. And therefore no longer used as "money."

Instead cigarettes, which had intrinsic value, were used as money in many transactions. A GI might trade a pack of cigarettes or two to a young woman for an episode of entertainment even though neither of them smoked! "Intrinsic value," you may recall, when applied to money denotes a commodity used as money whose value is inherent to the commodity rather than guaranteed by a bank or government. Since cigarettes can cause lung disease when smoked, their value -- while "intrinsic" by definition -- might be "irrational."

Precious metals (or documents representing such) have been the major type of money for almost all the span of human civilization. Fiat money was very seldom successful. (An exception is tokens of base metal used for small change.) Thus your claim is -- I intend this as informational rather than rude -- completely OPPOSITE to reality. Amusingly, when gold ceased to be used as money, its value soared.

bilby wrote: "I am somewhat baffled by your emotional response here. ... Your attitude is that of a priest having the existence of his god questioned." I don't know whether this comment by you was "friendly" or not, but it is certainly contrary to my actual "beliefs." I am more of a descriptionist than a prescriptionist. I "defend" gold -- if that's what I'm doing -- simply to fight the ignorance on display here. People with savings are well-advised to diversify rather than keeping 100% of their savings in stocks. Investing a small portion of one's savings into precious metals might not be a bad idea, however "irrational" one finds the current gold price to be. Crypto-coins, whose price may be even more irrational, MIGHT be an ever better hedge. To represent my sound advice for portfolio management as a "religion" is ... unfriendly.

 

[Bomb#20]

It's exact value *class*, as in the properties that make it a good currency.

It's shiny and otherwise useless. Those real properties make it so. Bitcoin has many of the same features and ultimately FIAT currency has almost exactly the same features as Bitcoin.

"Almost exactly the same features" is a phrase that here means "A fiat currency is controlled by a government which will probably eventually hyperinflate it to death, while bitcoin is not controlled by any government and can never be ruined by anyone making too much of it."

Likewise, horses have almost exactly the same features as llamas. But the little insignificant differences were enough to ensure it would be horse-owning cultures and not llama-owning cultures that would come to rule the world.

 

[Swammerdami]

It's exact value *class*, as in the properties that make it a good currency.

It's shiny and otherwise useless. Those real properties make it so. Bitcoin has many of the same features and ultimately FIAT currency has almost exactly the same features as Bitcoin.

"Almost exactly the same features" is a phrase that here means "A fiat currency is controlled by a government which will probably eventually hyperinflate it to death, while bitcoin is not controlled by any government and can never be ruined by anyone making too much of it."

Astute observation. However I'm not sure it's fully valid. Using  Fork_(blockchain) the limitations on Bitcoin might be circumvented. Morevoer, new crypto-coins are appearing frequently: Turdcoin, Turdcoin2, Turdcoin3, etc. If a few teradollars of crypto-coin "value" aren't enough, there's always Turdcoin4_fork_fork_spoon.

Interesting times.