Bitcoin biting the dust?

[lpetrich]

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp
Sounds like a pile of bullshit. It's basically all about supply and demand. Weird. Plus crypto is bad for the environment. While I don't really understand exactly how it's mined. I've gotten the impression that it's an awful way to make currency.

Here's how it works. Bitcoin is stored as a blockchain, a sequence of blocks of translations. Each one has a hashcode or a scrambled summary, and each one has the previous block's hashcode, meaning that if one was to alter one of the blocks, one would have to recalculate every later block to keep the blocks in sync.

Each block has a "nonce value", an extra value to get the hashcode into some range. "Mining" is the process of looking for a nonce value that will give a hashcode that is within range. One has to do a LOT of trial and error to find a suitable nonce value, and that takes a LOT of computation. That takes a LOT of electricity, and that is where the environmental impact of Bitcoin comes in.

 

[lpetrich]

I once wrote on types of money.

Moneyless economies work on barter and gifts. Barter: A has X and wants Y, and B has Y and wants X, so A gives X to B and B gives Y to A. Gift economy: A gives X to B, and B remembers the favor and later gives Y to A.

Commodity money is something traded at its non-monetary value. Lots of things have been used for that: gold, silver, tobacco, big carved stones, ...

Representative money is something traded at much more than its non-monetary value, like paper money and electronic transactions.

It can be commodity-backed, essentially IOU's for some commodity, like gold.

Or it can be fiat money (Latin: "let it be made"), decreed into existence by its issuer.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are a form of fiat money. Its nature, a blockchain with mining, makes it hard to make more of it, thus avoiding the common nightmare scenario of fiat money: its issuer(s) recklessly printing a large amount of it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is a new technology was developed and it is very valuable for criminals.

Since our government is a criminal enterprise in disguise, good and decent people have to be criminals just to get by. Our government purposely counterfeiting our currency is exactly why gold and bit coin are so extremely popular now. Becausee the common man does not want to toil their entire life just to let their life savings inflate away, they are interested in any sort of legitimate store of value. Criminal or not. Hardly a day can go by that I don't hear a gold commercial either on radio or television.

Bitcoin is merely the software version of gold hardware. It has value exactly why Microsoft has value even though their operating system is nothing but bits and zeros.

If Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam bubble waiting to break, he will have to wait until the US government starts acting responsibly again. A solid non inflatable currency is the only thing that will convince the public to trust our government. And I'm not holding my breath for that.

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

 

[Elixir]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

Hmmm.
During the Great Depression, the price of gold was fixed at $20.67 per ounce until 1934, when it was revalued to $35 per ounce. > 70% increase over 5 years isn’t bad in a bad economy.
That’s the point (if there is one) of holding gold in uncertain times. People value it. Doesn’t matter if valuing it is irrational, because it’s what people do.
Gold is now selling over $2600.
I’d say it’s “historically” fairly strong.
It goes up and down like anything else, but mostly up.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I can understand how I might be stupid and ignorant but how do you explain all the other much more learned people who do believe in gold and bitcoin? I'm certainly not the only one who thinks our government is corrupt. And history shows how every other empire before the US has inflated their economy out of existence in exactly the same manner.

What is the US doing any differently? We are giving money away during pandemics and creating more debt than we earn. How is that any different than the other empire's who have fallen?

And what is your evidence of learned people believing in them? Does the word "scam" not mean anything to you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Berkshire Hathaway has been trading around the $700,000/share level. Berkshire Hathaway itself does not sell partial shares. However, fractional shares of Berkshire Hathaway stock, including Class A and Class B shares, are available through brokers.
Funny how few people have 700k to dump on one share of one issue. More funny, is the fact the there are so many who CAN do that without putting any significant fraction of their portfolios at risk.
Still, cutting “pennies” is big business.

You don't need 700k to buy a share of Berkshire Hathaway. The class B shares trade for a lot less. It used to be 30:1 but Google's AI summary says it was split 50:1 (which would make the ratio 1500:1) in 2010 and the share prices are in about that ratio. There's a big difference in the voting power of A and B shares.

 

[Elixir]

There's a big difference in the voting power of A and B shares.

Sure, it’s scaled to the share price.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is a new technology was developed and it is very valuable for criminals.

Since our government is a criminal enterprise in disguise, good and decent people have to be criminals just to get by. Our government purposely counterfeiting our currency is exactly why gold and bit coin are so extremely popular now. Becausee the common man does not want to toil their entire life just to let their life savings inflate away, they are interested in any sort of legitimate store of value. Criminal or not. Hardly a day can go by that I don't hear a gold commercial either on radio or television.

Bitcoin is merely the software version of gold hardware. It has value exactly why Microsoft has value even though their operating system is nothing but bits and zeros.

If Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam bubble waiting to break, he will have to wait until the US government starts acting responsibly again. A solid non inflatable currency is the only thing that will convince the public to trust our government. And I'm not holding my breath for that.

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is a new technology was developed and it is very valuable for criminals.

Since our government is a criminal enterprise in disguise, good and decent people have to be criminals just to get by. Our government purposely counterfeiting our currency is exactly why gold and bit coin are so extremely popular now. Becausee the common man does not want to toil their entire life just to let their life savings inflate away, they are interested in any sort of legitimate store of value. Criminal or not. Hardly a day can go by that I don't hear a gold commercial either on radio or television.

Bitcoin is merely the software version of gold hardware. It has value exactly why Microsoft has value even though their operating system is nothing but bits and zeros.

If Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam bubble waiting to break, he will have to wait until the US government starts acting responsibly again. A solid non inflatable currency is the only thing that will convince the public to trust our government. And I'm not holding my breath for that.

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Well, that and you can do stuff with it. It's chemical properties aren't very common. And it looks pretty.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is a new technology was developed and it is very valuable for criminals.

Since our government is a criminal enterprise in disguise, good and decent people have to be criminals just to get by. Our government purposely counterfeiting our currency is exactly why gold and bit coin are so extremely popular now. Becausee the common man does not want to toil their entire life just to let their life savings inflate away, they are interested in any sort of legitimate store of value. Criminal or not. Hardly a day can go by that I don't hear a gold commercial either on radio or television.

Bitcoin is merely the software version of gold hardware. It has value exactly why Microsoft has value even though their operating system is nothing but bits and zeros.

If Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam bubble waiting to break, he will have to wait until the US government starts acting responsibly again. A solid non inflatable currency is the only thing that will convince the public to trust our government. And I'm not holding my breath for that.

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Well, that and you can do stuff with it. It's chemical properties aren't very common. And it looks pretty.

It's chemical properties are "is literally a timeless shiny bauble" in post collapse terms.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Well, that and you can do stuff with it. It's chemical properties aren't very common. And it looks pretty.

It's chemical properties are "is literally a timeless shiny bauble" in post collapse terms.

Like other noble metals, not prone to corrosion, a good catalyst, useful electrical properties.

Bitcoin, a series of 1's and 0's in a particular order. Neither the 1's or 0's have value.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

Hmmm.
During the Great Depression, the price of gold was fixed at $20.67 per ounce until 1934, when it was revalued to $35 per ounce. > 70% increase over 5 years isn’t bad in a bad economy.
That’s the point (if there is one) of holding gold in uncertain times. People value it. Doesn’t matter if valuing it is irrational, because it’s what people do.
Gold is now selling over $2600.
I’d say it’s “historically” fairly strong.
It goes up and down like anything else, but mostly up.

When the price was fixed I wouldn't consider it an investment in the first place. And note that I said "historically"--there have been times gold did very well, but I'm talking about the long term average.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a big difference in the voting power of A and B shares.

Sure, it’s scaled to the share price.

Berkshire Hathaway: Class A vs. Class B Stock

A memo from Warren Buffett regarding BRK.A vs. BRK.B share classes

brkshr.com

Price difference: 1,500:1. Voting difference: 10,000:1

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

No. Gold will survive any economic mess. It will be useless in a true collapse situation where things will be valued only on their usefulness.

 

[Elixir]

There's a big difference in the voting power of A and B shares.

Sure, it’s scaled to the share price.

Berkshire Hathaway: Class A vs. Class B Stock

A memo from Warren Buffett regarding BRK.A vs. BRK.B share classes

brkshr.com

Price difference: 1,500:1. Voting difference: 10,000:1

If that’s right I was wrong. Fractional A shares are available from brokers, so why buy B shares?

 

[bilby]

It is a new technology was developed and it is very valuable for criminals.

Since our government is a criminal enterprise in disguise, good and decent people have to be criminals just to get by. Our government purposely counterfeiting our currency is exactly why gold and bit coin are so extremely popular now. Becausee the common man does not want to toil their entire life just to let their life savings inflate away, they are interested in any sort of legitimate store of value. Criminal or not. Hardly a day can go by that I don't hear a gold commercial either on radio or television.

Bitcoin is merely the software version of gold hardware. It has value exactly why Microsoft has value even though their operating system is nothing but bits and zeros.

If Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam bubble waiting to break, he will have to wait until the US government starts acting responsibly again. A solid non inflatable currency is the only thing that will convince the public to trust our government. And I'm not holding my breath for that.

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Other than a collapse in the value of gold.

It seems unlikely that anyone is going to find yet another undiscovered continent that is awash with the stuff, and where you only have to shoot the natives or wait for them to die of smallpox, and then you can take as much as you can fit in your boat back to Spain.

But a collapse in demand for gold could happen at any time, as could a spike in supply due to the discovery of new massive reserves somewhere - maybe Elon will find a couple of hundred thousand tonne lump of the stuff in the asteroid belt and bring it to Earth; Or someone will find big lumps of it as the glaciers retreat in Antarctica or Greenland.

 

[bilby]

The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bearer currency that can survive any collapse.

Well, that and you can do stuff with it. It's chemical properties aren't very common. And it looks pretty.

It's chemical properties are "is literally a timeless shiny bauble" in post collapse terms.

Like other noble metals, not prone to corrosion, a good catalyst, useful electrical properties.

Bitcoin, a series of 1's and 0's in a particular order. Neither the 1's or 0's have value.

1 has infinitely more value than 0.

 

[Swammerdami]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

Hogwash! This meme has become more prevalent on message boards than the 1 ≠ 0.99999999... meme.
Where in heck does this obviously false meme come from? Is it just a political reaction to carnies like Rush Limbaugh touting Trump medallions or WTF?

The gold price is now 10x what the price was in 2001. That's TEN with a T, an E and an N.

The Nikkei-225 stock average (in dollars) is trading slightly BELOW its 1989 high. Gold has increased more than 7x over the same time period. The only reason Nikkei-225 is even near its 1989 high is the dramatic price doubling over the past 4.9 years.

The FTSE-100 is up only 16% (in dollars) since its high in 2000. (With dividends reinvested this might be a 100% increase or thereabouts.) Gold is up 900% over the same period.

The S&P500 index is less than 4x its 2007 high, or about 5x with dividends reinvested. Gold is up more than 4x over the same period.

@Loren Pechtel -- Do you still stand by your "Historically, gold is the worst investment class" claim??

PLEASE note: I am NOT suggesting that gold is a better investment than U.S. stocks. I'm merely refuting the absolute gibberish that comes from otherwise-intelligent people when their attachment to the silly meme that "gold is worthless" kicks in.

If forced to predict the future, I'll guess that a well-chosen basket of crypto-coins will outperform gold over the next three years or so. But I'll guess gold would outperform the crypto basket if you hold for 25 years or so.

.

.

It's chemical properties are "is literally a timeless shiny bauble" in post collapse terms.

More gibberish. To satisfy needs for reliability, durability and conductivity, gold is often used in electronics, especially for aerospace. Satellites and space probes can each contain as much as 1 kilogram of gold (Google says 5 kg but provides no examples), or $82k worth at the present price.

I'll guess that the AS bot ChatGPT pulled the following numbers out of its ass. But it's still better informed than those who describe gold as a worthless metal useful only for impressing certain women.

In total, an Airbus A320 likely contains around 10 to 15 kg (22 to 33 pounds) of gold spread across the avionics, electrical systems, and connectors. Most of this gold is used in the critical systems of the aircraft, such as the cockpit avionics, navigation, and communication systems.

I'll bet this Artificial Stupidity engine had to hallucinate to come up with the (probably much too high) "10 to 15 kg" figure! But what is the correct number?

 

[Jarhyn]

More gibberish

These things do not drive its value.

Gold enjoyed it's exact value class long before electricity was understood. For 99.999%+ of human history, the exclusive value of gold was "shiny baubles".

When electricity is useless, we will be back there.

Or do you honestly think that people hoarded it in medieval Europe because it makes a good contactor for audio jacks?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Historically, gold is the worst investment class.

Hogwash! This meme has become more prevalent on message boards than the 1 ≠ 0.99999999... meme.
Where in heck does this obviously false meme come from? Is it just a political reaction to carnies like Rush Limbaugh touting Trump medallions or WTF?

The gold price is now 10x what the price was in 2001. That's TEN with a T, an E and an N.

The Nikkei-225 stock average (in dollars) is trading slightly BELOW its 1989 high. Gold has increased more than 7x over the same time period. The only reason Nikkei-225 is even near its 1989 high is the dramatic price doubling over the past 4.9 years.

The FTSE-100 is up only 16% (in dollars) since its high in 2000. (With dividends reinvested this might be a 100% increase or thereabouts.) Gold is up 900% over the same period.

The S&P500 index is less than 4x its 2007 high, or about 5x with dividends reinvested. Gold is up more than 4x over the same period.

@Loren Pechtel -- Do you still stand by your "Historically, gold is the worst investment class" claim??

PLEASE note: I am NOT suggesting that gold is a better investment than U.S. stocks. I'm merely refuting the absolute gibberish that comes from otherwise-intelligent people when their attachment to the silly meme that "gold is worthless" kicks in.

If forced to predict the future, I'll guess that a well-chosen basket of crypto-coins will outperform gold over the next three years or so. But I'll guess gold would outperform the crypto basket if you hold for 25 years or so.

It's chemical properties are "is literally a timeless shiny bauble" in post collapse terms.

More gibberish. To satisfy needs for reliability, durability and conductivity, gold is often used in electronics, especially for aerospace. Satellites and space probes can each contain as much as 1 kilogram of gold (Google says 5 kg but provides no examples), or $82k worth at the present price.

I'll guess that the AS bot ChatGPT pulled the following numbers out of its ass. But it's still better informed than those who describe gold as a worthless metal useful only for impressing certain women.

In total, an Airbus A320 likely contains around 10 to 15 kg (22 to 33 pounds) of gold spread across the avionics, electrical systems, and connectors. Most of this gold is used in the critical systems of the aircraft, such as the cockpit avionics, navigation, and communication systems.

I'll bet this Artificial Stupidity engine had to hallucinate to come up with the (probably much too high) "10 to 15 kg" figure! But what is the correct number?

Bold red: And all anyone can do is guess as neither has much in the way of useful fundamentals to rely on for investment purposes. Some, questionable, yes, but far and away from the fundamentals used in investing in any stock or stock index. As such, I would order them: stocks, gold, crypto, casino. All things being equal (house rules or government intervention) one could probably fare better at Black Jack than crypto. At least with Black Jack there is math behind it to rely on. With crypto it's what, who has the best blockchain? Does Bitcoin have the best blockchain? Which crypto based on its fundamentals is the best crypto to invest in?

I've stated elsewhere, gold use in industry is 11% of total produced the rest is a fear based investment of currency collapse, if I understand the minds of gold investors. Crypto is that plus your usual greed bubble.