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Black Panther will lead to more diversity, which could be both good and bad

Underseer

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ComicBookCast on YouTube brings up some good points.

  • This will lead to other movie studios making more diverse movies in an attempt to duplicate the success of Black Panther, and that’s good.
  • The past shows us that movie executives will blindly copy Black Panther without understanding why it’s popular, and that’s bad.

For example, as the above video suggests, we can easily imagine some movie studio taking the script for a movie that was written for Tom Cruise, race-swapping the lead and most of the supporting roles and expecting to have the same success as Black Panther.

Of course, this won’t work because Black Panther was written from the ground up to be a celebration of black culture and to have a subtext that discusses many black issues. It’s a black movie from the ground up, but one also intended to appeal to more than just people of African descent.

Another problem I anticipate is movie executives failing to understand the differences with a movie intended to appeal to another minority group. I’m American and half Asian, so let’s take that as an example.

One of the things Africans were very excited about is the fact that they were finally getting a movie in which most of the characters were black, that was set in an African country, that had a positive portrayal of an African country, and in which the heroes and villains were both African.

As an Asian-American, my representation needs when it comes to popular media are very different. I don’t need any of the things in the above list. My representation needs are much simpler. Why? Because I can hop on Netflix and watch tons of movies and TV shows made in Asian countries. I already get all the things in the above list. That’s not actually what I want or need out of an American movie that increases representation for me.

Asian-Americans make up 5.6% of the American population. I mostly just want more Asian faces in American movies. Not every movie has to have one out of 20 faces be Asian, but I would like it if the average for all American movies was around 1 in 20. I would like it if 1 in 20 of the protagonists were Asian in American movies. I would prefer Asian-American characters over Asian characters (there’s already plenty of Asian characters in Asian movies). On top of that, I would prefer it if the characters did not involve any unfortunate stereotypes.

If we occasionally got a movie that had symbolism and a subtext about the Asian-American experience (e.g. the way Chinese people were treated in America in the 1800s/1900s and how the worst anti-Chinese law was only repealed when Japanese-Americans became the new target), but I can live without that. I mostly just want what I listed in the previous paragraph.

Oh, and on the topic of unfortunate stereotypes, if we interpret Mantis from Guardians of the Galaxy as an Asian character (I don’t since they changed her from a half-white half-Asian woman into an alien), then she involved that unfortunate innocent-exotic stereotype.

Anyway, my point is that if other studios decide to do this with a movie that does Asian representation and try to imitate the success of Black Panther, they might completely miss the point that Asian-Americans are looking for very different things when it comes to representation than African-Americans want. The things in an American movie that might appeal to Asians overseas could be very different from what appeals to Asian-Americans (both really loved Kung Fu Panda, but that doesn’t mean everything appeals to both).

I’m not even going to pretend to know what Latinx-Americans would want out of representation in a Hollywood movie, but I’m pretty sure it’s not the gangster-like hoodlums in the opening scene of Logan or Ant-Man’s sidekick.

And of course, there is the really big point. Whenever movie studios try to blindly imitate a surprise blockbuster, the one thing they always seem to forget is that the movie must be a good movie before it is anything else. I’m sure you all noticed, but this happens every single time there is a blockbuster that is new and different, and all the other movie studios decide to imitate it.

I’m really glad that Black Panther is probably going to inspire Hollywood to make more diverse movies. It’s one of the reasons I hoped Black Panther would do well. I’m just not looking forward to some of the cringe-inducing growing pains I expect in the coming years.
 
How is Black Panther a "diverse" movie when there is nary a non-black person either in front or behind the camera?
Is "diverse" just euphemism for "no whiteys"? Like how left claims that black colleges are real "diverse" when they are >95% black?

P.S.: The fuck is "latinx"? We don't say blax or whitex or Asianx so why Latinx?
P.P.S.: I wonder if this teacher realizes that "Wakanda" does not really exist ...
 
How is Black Panther a "diverse" movie when there is nary a non-black person either in front or behind the camera?
Is "diverse" just euphemism for "no whiteys"? Like how left claims that black colleges are real "diverse" when they are >95% black?

P.S.: The fuck is "latinx"? We don't say blax or whitex or Asianx so why Latinx?
P.P.S.: I wonder if this teacher realizes that "Wakanda" does not really exist ...

Oh golly.

Out of all the movies that were made since the dawn of the movie industry, one whole movie had a cast that mostly didn't look like you! You're so oppressed!

Gosh, just imagine how you might feel if all the movies were like that.

Unless all the movies that are made star mostly people who look like you, you are definitely being persecuted. Those dirty minorities don't deserve any representation because they are persecuting you so much.

- - - Updated - - -

heh god you two are peas in a pod.

Sure. Use a "both sides" argument. That's a good way to convince everyone that you don't deserve to be lumped in with them. They hardly ever use a "both sides" argument.
 
How is Black Panther a "diverse" movie when there is nary a non-black person either in front or behind the camera?
Is "diverse" just euphemism for "no whiteys"? Like how left claims that black colleges are real "diverse" when they are >95% black?

P.S.: The fuck is "latinx"? We don't say blax or whitex or Asianx so why Latinx?
P.P.S.: I wonder if this teacher realizes that "Wakanda" does not really exist ...

Another person pontificating about Black Panther who has obviously not seen it. There are plenty of white faces in the movie, two of the major characters are even white. It just so happens that scenes set in Wakanda portray black people almost exclusively. Of course this makes sense, given the premise that Wakanda is a hidden, insular nation, that did not allow outsiders within it's borders, and that is one of the key aspects of the movie. But that is all it took to trigger you.
 
Pride, look, I'm more than willing to admit that I could be wrong about all of this. I'm wrong about lots of stuff much of the time.

  • You could have waved off my criticism with any number of personal preference declarations. The preferences that I listed for that was far from exhaustive.
  • You could have simply said "Hey, dude, I'm liberal. Bark somewhere else." I absolutely should not accept arguments like that (there are definitely racist liberals [particularly in the South] and even more liberals who indulge microaggressions), but sadly, sometimes I do.
  • But if you want to stick with the arguments you made, then give flimsy reasons for not liking a diversity movie, what conclusion am I to draw? Sure, it's possible that you are not being honest with yourself or me about why you didn't like that movie and that the real reason is something other than racism/sexism/etc. It's possible that all my counterarguments were wrong and you could have countered those. It's also possible that you are just really really bad at making arguments and I misinterpreted that as dishonesty about why you didn't like something, but based on your vocabulary and sentence structure I doubt that is the case.
So instead of any of the above, you come here and use a "both sides" argument, one of the most common rhetorical tactics they have (and recently was all over the news in the wake of Charlottesville). If your goal is to convince me that you don't deserve to be lumped in with them, that probably wasn't the best way to go about it.
 
[...]

P.S.: The fuck is "latinx"? We don't say blax or whitex or Asianx so why Latinx?

Latinx is used because using "latino" for both latino and latina isn't really fair, and because saying "latino/latina" all the time would be too much typing. From what I understand, it's mostly a complaint liberal Latinx folks have about the Spanish language, not about you.

I could type out "latino/latina" every single time if it offends you so much. Is that something you need me to do in order to avoid being triggered?

P.P.S.: I wonder if this teacher realizes that "Wakanda" does not really exist ...

I'm pretty sure the professor knows that Wakanda is not a real place.

College professors just love to use something that's popular at the moment in lectures as an example to illustrate something else they are talking about because it helps to keep the attention of all those hungover college kids. It's funny that you never complained about this when white philosophy professors and theology professors were using The Matrix to talk about ideas from philosophy or religion. Does that mean white people think The Matrix is real? Or does this argument only apply to professors of color?
 
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I’m really glad that Black Panther is probably going to inspire Hollywood to make more diverse movies.

I hope I'm not coming down with Derec-itis, but I disagree. When Hollywood makes a movie not central about white people, it is about black people and only black people. For example Luke Cage, Hoodlum, blaxpoitation films in the 70's etc. So if you're asserting that this movie deviates from the norms, it's about as safe a deviation you can get. Muslims are pretty much typecast in film and I don't think that is going to change because of this particular movie. Never mind Latinos, Sikhs or any other group.

Diversity in films would be a good thing, but I don't see it happening in Hollywood. If it's going to happen, it will be elsewhere.
 
Re: this doesn’t count as diversity... Meh - boo hoo.

I loved it. It was a good movie. And the fact that it had all black faces made it extra fun for me and the fact that it had several layers of subtext also made it fun for me. Diversity for me doesn’t have to be perfectly mathed out to be “diverse.” I’m quite happy with a mostly black film, it felt fun, refreshing, fresh and interesting. I can’t believe people are complaining that it was too black. Pshh. I agree with underseer’s view on most counts. Good discussion points.
 
I’m really glad that Black Panther is probably going to inspire Hollywood to make more diverse movies.

I hope I'm not coming down with Derec-itis, but I disagree. When Hollywood makes a movie not central about white people, it is about black people and only black people. For example Luke Cage, Hoodlum, blaxpoitation films in the 70's etc. So if you're asserting that this movie deviates from the norms, it's about as safe a deviation you can get. Muslims are pretty much typecast in film and I don't think that is going to change because of this particular movie. Never mind Latinos, Sikhs or any other group.

Diversity in films would be a good thing, but I don't see it happening in Hollywood. If it's going to happen, it will be elsewhere.
Isn’t there more to diversity than just the color or race of characters? The themes of a plot, scriptwriters, producer, director? Someone makes just one serious movie with a lot of black people and all of a sudden Hollywood is accused of being nothing but in the pocket of big black money.
 
I’m really glad that Black Panther is probably going to inspire Hollywood to make more diverse movies.

I hope I'm not coming down with Derec-itis, but I disagree. When Hollywood makes a movie not central about white people, it is about black people and only black people. For example Luke Cage, Hoodlum, blaxpoitation films in the 70's etc. So if you're asserting that this movie deviates from the norms, it's about as safe a deviation you can get. Muslims are pretty much typecast in film and I don't think that is going to change because of this particular movie. Never mind Latinos, Sikhs or any other group.

Diversity in films would be a good thing, but I don't see it happening in Hollywood. If it's going to happen, it will be elsewhere.

So it's ok that Hollywood movies are almost entirely white, but it's not diversity if a movie is almost entirely black to counter the massive number of entirely white films? So I guess the solution is to go back to movies being entirely white?

How does the logic of that argument even work?


Nothing about the argument you and Derec are making makes any sense.

And how do you think we're going to get movies from a Sikh-American perspective or a Sikh perspective unless someone proves to those Hollywood movie executives that a movie from the perspective of more populous minorities can make money first?

I'm sorry, but your objection just sounds like white fragility to me.

I'll repeat what I said to Derec. If having one movie full of faces that mostly didn't look like you bothered you this much, just imagine how you would feel if all (or nearly all) movies were like that.
 
I’m really glad that Black Panther is probably going to inspire Hollywood to make more diverse movies.

I hope I'm not coming down with Derec-itis, but I disagree. When Hollywood makes a movie not central about white people, it is about black people and only black people. For example Luke Cage, Hoodlum, blaxpoitation films in the 70's etc. So if you're asserting that this movie deviates from the norms, it's about as safe a deviation you can get. Muslims are pretty much typecast in film and I don't think that is going to change because of this particular movie. Never mind Latinos, Sikhs or any other group.

Diversity in films would be a good thing, but I don't see it happening in Hollywood. If it's going to happen, it will be elsewhere.

So it's ok that Hollywood movies are almost entirely white, but it's not diversity if a movie is almost entirely black to counter the massive number of entirely white films? So I guess the solution is to go back to movies being entirely white?

How does the logic of that argument even work?


Nothing about the argument you and Derec are making makes any sense.
I don't think it is fair to lump Patooka's post with Derec's sentiment.

I'm sorry, but your objection just sounds like white fragility to me.
I think it sounds more like an honest mistake that just needs a few more data points filled in.

I'll repeat what I said to Derec. If having one movie full of faces that mostly didn't look like you bothered you this much, just imagine how you would feel if all (or nearly all) movies were like that.
This is a key reflection. Imagine if all movies were produced by Tyler Perry. The trouble is, for some white people, it seems that if a movie has too much black.... it is not diverse. They look at an individual movie, not the entire slate of films being put out each year. For Derec, it is okay to have War Machine in a movie that is predominantly white. But it isn't okay to switch it. I don't think Patooka is making the same sort of case.
 
As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.
 
As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.
Yeah, blacks think they have it hard? People, including Hispanics, will be hard pressed to name 5 Hispanic protagonists in US films (you can only use Jennifer Lopez once). The best Hispanics can hope for is a quality Hispanic antagonist... gang or drug related. Off the top of my head I can think of is... you know... that person Jennifer Lopez played.

Heck, even in Costa's Missing, the main characters are all white Americans... in a movie taking place in South America!
 
As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.

Yes Coco is very American(as opposed to European), very Mexican, and not in a condescending way. At least it didn't seem so to this gringo.

Good music too, tho I had a laugh because when the party scene came on, the music went Caribbean.
 
As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.
Yeah, blacks think they have it hard? People, including Hispanics, will be hard pressed to name 5 Hispanic protagonists in US films (you can only use Jennifer Lopez once).

How many times do we get to count Antonio Banderas?
 
As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.
Yeah, blacks think they have it hard? People, including Hispanics, will be hard pressed to name 5 Hispanic protagonists in US films (you can only use Jennifer Lopez once). The best Hispanics can hope for is a quality Hispanic antagonist... gang or drug related. Off the top of my head I can think of is... you know... that person Jennifer Lopez played.

Heck, even in Costa's Missing, the main characters are all white Americans... in a movie taking place in South America!

As Reign of April says, there's a reason why the movement is "#OscarssoWhite" rather than "#Oscarsnotblack".

And unlike the Grammies, "Academy Award Winner" does carry quite a bit of weight in Hollywood, so this one does matter. And it also matters for the staff that that actor/actress/director prefers, which can mean equal opportunities for lighting, makeup, hair stylists, stunt doubles, and so forth.
 
Lupita Nyong'o

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As far as Latinx representation goes - I heard more about Coco (also from Disney) than I usually do for movies. And Luis (the guy from Ant-Man) did get the same sort of redemption that Lang did - and given that it was almost entirely comedic and cookie-cutter anyway, yeah Marvel could do better here, but...eh, there's other studios to glare at first.
Yeah, blacks think they have it hard? People, including Hispanics, will be hard pressed to name 5 Hispanic protagonists in US films (you can only use Jennifer Lopez once).

How many times do we get to count Antonio Banderas?
Ah... forgot about him. So there is 2.
 
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