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#blacklivesmatter explanation

Tigers!

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.
 

Rhea

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

Most of the shootings are done by white police, I believe, but definitely not all..

Studies have shown on many levels (Police, Teachers, store clerks, whatever) that the bias against people who are black is extremely pervasive even to the point that people who are themselves black (or other minority) view other people who are black unfavorably. This is seen with little girls being asked which doll is "most beautiful" and young men asked "is this person dangerous." I think that's not terrible unexpected when the societal message for decades - lifetimes - has been black is bad, dangerous, lazy, wrong that people subconsciously act on that teaching. The fact that it's wrong and untrue, doesn't make this go away. It's LESS common for people who are black to be discriminators, but it's not eliminated.

In this recent baltimore case, 3 cops who are all white stopped and arrested Grey. He appears injured from that encounter. He's then placed in a van with a driver who is black (and a co-pilot who is white, I think?) and apparently injured further. Later two additional cops who are black see him and do not come to his aid.


Another reason why #blacklivesmatter is a thing is because in addition to many cops (most of whom are white) killing black men, it is simultaneously seen that white men (and women) who are criminals tend to get arrested without being killed. More patience is afforded to those criminals before shooting them.

So it is both "don't shoot me because you're white" and also "don't shoot me because I'm black."

My 2¢
 

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http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white

I'm not sure how reliable that article is. Regardless...
Who is killing all those black men and boys?

Mostly white officers. But in hundreds of instances, black officers, too. Black officers account for a little more than 10 percent of all fatal police shootings. Of those they kill, though, 78 percent were black.

White officers, given their great numbers in so many of the country's police departments, are well represented in all categories of police killings. White officers killed 91 percent of the whites who died at the hands of police. And they were responsible for 68 percent of the people of color killed. Those people of color represented 46 percent of all those killed by white officers.

It seems that black officers account for around 10% of the killings. I'm going to guess that is roughly proportional with their representation in the police force. I'm too lazy to delve deeper.

I am a Latino who grew up upper middle class, and I've never really felt discriminated against by middle class white people. But I know many Latinos at the very bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. They often complain about being discriminated against, and usually it is low-income white people and low-income black people doing the discriminating. It is my perception that overtly discriminatory behavior is more common among lower-income people in general. It's actually pretty sad, but a fairly predictable state of affairs. Latinos are in direct economic competition with people of any race in the lower-income range.
 

Rhea

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I know many Latinos at the very bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. They often complain about being discriminated against, and usually it is low-income white people and low-income black people doing the discriminating. It is my perception that overtly discriminatory behavior is more common among lower-income people in general. It's actually pretty sad, but a fairly predictable state of affairs. Latinos are in direct economic competition with people of any race in the lower-income range.

Yeah, one of the greatest weapons wielded by the powers is the ability to make each of their victims fight against each other instead of banding together to overcome the oppressor. :( It is sad.
 

Loren Pechtel

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})
 

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Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?

Police in general. Justice has been unequal for nearly all our history and they have good reason to be fearful as one wrong action or word can send them to jail on trumped up charges. I've talked to black men and their attorneys who are hauled into court to face charges of made up crimes like "lurking with intent" (standing on a corner), "hailing drug customers"(motioning to a friend's car), and "terrorist glances/casing an object for future crimes" (staring off into space). -- I'm sure we have people here that will defend such actions.

Yes, Black people have reason to fear police. They are suspect simply because they are Black.

The judges were livid when these cases come before them, but with the dockets full on a Monday morning the DA's office hadn't had time to look over the case load in front of them and release those that are charged with crimes that don't exist. Every few years there is a crack down, but the problem isn't going away. These men get arrest records and have difficulty finding jobs because of it.
 

Nice Squirrel

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})

Citations or is this just a fantasy?
 

Toni

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While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})

Citations or is this just a fantasy?

Please. Loren doesn't need no citations and he certainly isn't going to post any.

However, I will post citations:

Proof you cannot be educated enough, if you are black:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/21gates.html?_r=0

It doesn't matter if you cannot possibly be hiding weapons:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/26/family-anthony-hill-inves_n_6946992.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/us/chamblee-georgia-police-shooting-anthony-hill.html

A lot of people--usually men--are being killed by police, often for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

A young black man was shot dead in a Walmart in Ohio. For talking on his cell phone and for picking up a toy gun/air gun that was out of its package and laying on the shelf. His mistake: Not realizing that being a black man meant he was a threat and not realizing the police were after HIM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_John_Crawford_III

Unfortunately, I could fill a page full of citations. Pages, really. The only citation you'll get from Loren is an account of his wet dreams.
 

AthenaAwakened

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

what makes you think your news on the topic is being censored?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power.
Fox News.
This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem.
Indeed. The amount of animosity seems to coincide with the election of Obama.
If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it.
This is true. On the other hand, a completely unarmed person could get shot by the cops (race isn't important) and people will defend the cops to the end of the Earth.

Don't listen to Loren, this is the real story.

What is happening in America is an odd thing. There are shootings, it seems well over 1,000 killings involving the Police. Because statistics aren't tracked, there is no idea how much is undue shootings. Almost all of the officers aren't even charged when there is a killing. Almost none that are tried are convicted. This is ignoring beatings and what not.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.

Then we have the "dialogue" in America. You'll have one part of the argument saying the guy was a saint (even if he was worse than Godwin). Another part of the argument will allege the man was a "thug" (even if he better than Wayne Brady). Another part of the argument will insist the cops were wrong, regardless of the evidence. Another part of the argument will insist the officers are never wrong. Those last two usually have notable overlap with the respective categories that precede them.

You add Cable News in this nation and AM Radio which are massive cash cows that base their business on sowing dissent and you develop this polarized situation. Where dialogue becomes impossible. And a situation such as in Baltimore where a guy almost assuredly seemed to die because of police treatment is still receiving an absurd amount of apologism.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.
 

dismal

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#blacklivesmatter is obviously to rebut all the people who are always saying "black lives don't matter".
 

Rhea

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#blacklivesmatter is obviously to rebut all the people who are always saying "black lives don't matter".

saying AND acting on.

But, yeah, that's a pretty good summary. There are way too many of them.
 

prideandfall

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While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})
you heard it here first, folks:
300 years worth of white men screaming that blacks are obsolete farm equipment that should be shot and killed at the slightest provocation and forming organizations that have the sole stated goal of oppressing minorities = no problem at all and has nothing to do with the problem.
60 years of relatively prominent (but not nearly as mainstream) black men pointing out that a lot of white people are still hellbent on destroying black people as a race = the REAL source of the problem and is totally why all this hostility is going on.
 

Jolly_Penguin

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A lot of people--usually men--are being killed by police, often for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

So you have you noticed that it is more often black men than black women. Is there a sexist thing going on here as well as a racist thing?
 

Jolly_Penguin

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While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})
you heard it here first, folks:
300 years worth of white men screaming that blacks are obsolete farm equipment that should be shot and killed at the slightest provocation and forming organizations that have the sole stated goal of oppressing minorities = no problem at all and has nothing to do with the problem.
60 years of relatively prominent (but not nearly as mainstream) black men pointing out that a lot of white people are still hellbent on destroying black people as a race = the REAL source of the problem and is totally why all this hostility is going on.

You really got that from what he wrote and what you quoted?

He has a point. So do you.

There is a real problem with bias against black men in the US, and a prejudiced image of thug, lazy, violent etc that they get saddled with, no matter how peaceful, hardworking or generally good that they are. There is a real problem with police holding this bias and acting on it and causing pointless deaths of innocent black men.

There are also people who see that and exploit it. There is a gangsta culture that markets it for profit. TV shows, music, etc glorifying it, even to the point that some daft white kids want to emulate it. There are people (often quite disconnected with the actual downtrodden) who happen to be black and use that group identity to their profit. I would not say it is the biggest problem going on with this, or even close to it, nor did Loren say that (yet), but it does happen, and dismissing it out of hand and sniping at anybody who mentions it won't help anything.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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you heard it here first, folks:
300 years worth of white men screaming that blacks are obsolete farm equipment that should be shot and killed at the slightest provocation and forming organizations that have the sole stated goal of oppressing minorities = no problem at all and has nothing to do with the problem.
60 years of relatively prominent (but not nearly as mainstream) black men pointing out that a lot of white people are still hellbent on destroying black people as a race = the REAL source of the problem and is totally why all this hostility is going on.
There is a real problem with bias against black men in the US, and a prejudiced image of thug, lazy, violent etc that they get saddled with, no matter how peaceful, hardworking or generally good that they are. There is a real problem with police holding this bias and acting on it and causing pointless deaths of innocent black men.
It should be noted that what happened in Baltimore had nothing to do with bias. If the police were responsible for his injuries, that was flat out assault by the cops.

There are also people who see that and exploit it. There is a gangsta culture that markets it for profit. TV shows, music, etc glorifying it, even to the point that some daft white kids want to emulate it.
I'm curious. Why is this gangsta culture always trotted out in these discussions, but not the corporate media inspired conflict culture, where MSNBC and Fox News (Fox News in spades) are doing their best to egg each of their sides on?

There are people (often quite disconnected with the actual downtrodden) who happen to be black and use that group identity to their profit. I would not say it is the biggest problem going on with this, or even close to it, nor did Loren say that (yet), but it does happen, and dismissing it out of hand and sniping at anybody who mentions it won't help anything.
No one will dismiss the truth that there is some music out there with a gangster culture, it is just that it is somewhat irrelevant to the conversation.
 

prideandfall

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You really got that from what he wrote and what you quoted?
yes, because that is exactly what he is saying.

He has a point. So do you.
i really don't think he does, because i know LP and his posting history well enough to know he's basically saying "this is all al sharpton's fault" and that's as far as his "logic" goes, because "blame it on jesse jackson" is the sum totality of what his brain requires to simply write off the entire topic.

There is a real problem with bias against black men in the US, and a prejudiced image of thug, lazy, violent etc that they get saddled with, no matter how peaceful, hardworking or generally good that they are. There is a real problem with police holding this bias and acting on it and causing pointless deaths of innocent black men.
i don't think that's the problem at all, because there is the same bias against redneck meth-heads, or mexicans with tear-drop tattoos, or any number of other easily visually identified cultural stereotypes that the genteel US mainstream consider frightening - and yet there isn't any evidence currently of there being a national trend of men of these other types being in assorted questionable situations with the police and being summarily executed over it.
even by this statement, you're trying to hand-wave away the problem, you're trying to say "oh well it's because poor victimized white murderers have been brain-washed into thinking these are dangerous criminals" - no, that isn't the problem.
take a white man and a black man dressed the same way ("gangsta" as you eloquently put it) and put them in the same contextual situation and have them act the same way, and national statistics and trends say that many people will find some way to excuse or justify killing the black guy, and will not do the same for the white guy.

the problem is that people in general see blacks as disposable, that a perceived threat from a black person is adequate grounds to straight up murder them - this is why #blacklivesmatter exists.

There are also people who see that and exploit it.
oh here we go...

There is a gangsta culture that markets it for profit. TV shows, music, etc glorifying it, even to the point that some daft white kids want to emulate it.
for every single instance you can possibly name or think of where "the blacks glorify being frightening to old white people" i can give you an equal number of examples of white people doing the same thing to the same extent (at least in terms of criminal activity and general social threat) but nobody would ever do what you're doing and try to claim that Breaking Bad is a legitimate reason to justify murdering a white kid because he was acting "shifty".

There are people (often quite disconnected with the actual downtrodden) who happen to be black and use that group identity to their profit. I would not say it is the biggest problem going on with this, or even close to it, nor did Loren say that (yet), but it does happen, and dismissing it out of hand and sniping at anybody who mentions it won't help anything.
this is patently ridiculous, because as white people have co-opted cultural trends which were traditionally associated with black communities, the perceived threat has not transferred to other races in remotely the same way.

the fact is you can take any perceived threatening cultural trait and apply it to whites, mexicans, asians, or potpourri and sure you'll make white people nervous, but it's only when you apply it to blacks that suddenly "immediate termination at the first tiny flicker of any behavior that isn't glaringly subservient" becomes something that is generally considered to be acceptable by society at large, or that will get people such as yourself and LP and derec to show up in threads and start doing mental gymnastics to try and justify.
this is why #blacklivesmatter exists.
 

Toni

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A lot of people--usually men--are being killed by police, often for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

So you have you noticed that it is more often black men than black women. Is there a sexist thing going on here as well as a racist thing?

You mean: have I noticed that women are usually seen as powerless? Yeah, I noticed that when I was just a little girl. Not much older when I realized that women who cannot be totally taken as powerless or relegated into one of a handful of 'safe' stereotypes are relegated to one big stereotype: bitch.

Or do you mean do I believe that police should treat women as badly as they treat men? I think they do, just in different ways. Men are more likely to be beaten, shot, etc. by the police. Women are more likely to be beaten, shot, etc. by the men the police ignore because it's just a she said/he said kind of thing, never mind bruises, restraining orders, etc.

But if you mean: do I think there is far too much violence being used as the first, second and third choice: the answer is yes. Yes, I do. Unfortunately, these are often the go to tools of police when dealing with people they see as threatening. Black skin = threatening in our society.
 

Loren Pechtel

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While you will get some other answers from the leftists on here there's another factor they certainly won't mention:

We have some in this country who go around stirring up black-on-white animosity as a way to power. (Here's something that's hurting you, I'm here to help.) This unjustified animosity is a large part of the problem. If a black is shot by the police without having already shot an officer you can pretty much figure there's going to be a crowd blaming the police and saying he did nothing wrong, the police forced him into it. (A perfect example locally: A cop was running plates--one comes back hot. He follows and calls for backup. The driver realizes he's being followed and takes off, the cop follows. The driver gets into an unfamiliar neighborhood and corners himself when he doesn't realize a 4-lane road will suddenly dead-end {there was a freeway ahead, the bridge was in the early stages of construction}. The cop tells them to wait in the car, the driver gets out and points a gun at the cop. After he gets turned to swiss cheese it's found it's a realistic fake. "He was a good kid!" "He had never been arrested!" {Yeah, but he was driving a hot car} "The cop should have waited for backup!" {Exactly what he was doing until the driver forced matters} "He was followed because he was black!" {No, the cop followed because the plate was hot.})

Citations or is this just a fantasy?

Our paper's archive is behind a paywall. Even if I found the article (something I've had great difficulty doing with their website) I couldn't link it.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Don't listen to Loren, this is the real story.

What is happening in America is an odd thing. There are shootings, it seems well over 1,000 killings involving the Police. Because statistics aren't tracked, there is no idea how much is undue shootings. Almost all of the officers aren't even charged when there is a killing. Almost none that are tried are convicted. This is ignoring beatings and what not.

Don't listen to Jimmy Higgins, his data doesn't add up.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

2013 (the last year for which data is available): 516 legal homicides.

From looking elsewhere I find this is roughly 60% police. Where are you getting the thousands of killings??

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.

Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
 

Loren Pechtel

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There are also people who see that and exploit it. There is a gangsta culture that markets it for profit. TV shows, music, etc glorifying it, even to the point that some daft white kids want to emulate it. There are people (often quite disconnected with the actual downtrodden) who happen to be black and use that group identity to their profit. I would not say it is the biggest problem going on with this, or even close to it, nor did Loren say that (yet), but it does happen, and dismissing it out of hand and sniping at anybody who mentions it won't help anything.

Not only does it not help anything but it actually hurts things. So long as there's an easy excuse the real issues won't be addressed.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton should get honorary KKK memberships. They're more effective at advancing the KKK's position than anything any member of the KKK does.
 

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Don't listen to Jimmy Higgins, his data doesn't add up.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

2013 (the last year for which data is available): 516 legal homicides.

From looking elsewhere I find this is roughly 60% police. Where are you getting the thousands of killings??
You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.
 

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You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

Looking at Loren's link, I'm not seeing what he is seeing. What I am seeing is that death rates by 'legal intervention' occur at well over twice the rate for blacks compared with whites.

I wonder what his 'other sources' are?
 

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Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
.

This is SO TRUE!!!!1!!!!!!111!

Look, we arrest them at 5 times the rate we arrest white people for the same activities and then we can claim look how criminal activityish they all are!!11!!!

White people smoke dope, don't get arrested.
Black people smoke dope, get arrested.

See how criminally activish they are! Bad race. Baaaad race!

And look how often "those" people have arrest records. Huh? Doesn't that prove it even more?
They walk down the street and get frisked and stopped for no reason.
Then they run when they see cops later.
See how guilty they must be?
 

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You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

Looking at Loren's link, I'm not seeing what he is seeing. What I am seeing is that death rates by 'legal intervention' occur at well over twice the rate for blacks compared with whites.

I wonder what his 'other sources' are?
Loren's link indicates a certain number of dead via legal intervention. In a thread by Axulus, there is snapshot information regarding shootings by race. The conclusion being made is that blacks are shot more often, but should be shot even more based on the percentage of violent crimes they are involved in. We'll ignore how many of the most recent cases didn't involve any violent crimes (selling single cigarettes, evading police on a stop, jaywalking, etc...)
 

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the fact is you can take any perceived threatening cultural trait and apply it to whites, mexicans, asians, or potpourri and sure you'll make white people nervous, but it's only when you apply it to blacks that suddenly "immediate termination at the first tiny flicker of any behavior that isn't glaringly subservient" becomes something that is generally considered to be acceptable by society at large, or that will get people such as yourself and LP and derec to show up in threads and start doing mental gymnastics to try and justify.
this is why #blacklivesmatter exists.

Sometimes even "glaringly subservient" isn't enough for a black male, as evidenced by the guy who was scrambling to comply with a patrol officer's commands and got shot for reaching back into his car for his license as ordered to do.

As I recall, the usual members blamed the victim that time too; saying he should have known immediately obeying the cop's orders would startle the cop into shooting him.
 

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the fact is you can take any perceived threatening cultural trait and apply it to whites, mexicans, asians, or potpourri and sure you'll make white people nervous, but it's only when you apply it to blacks that suddenly "immediate termination at the first tiny flicker of any behavior that isn't glaringly subservient" becomes something that is generally considered to be acceptable by society at large, or that will get people such as yourself and LP and derec to show up in threads and start doing mental gymnastics to try and justify.
this is why #blacklivesmatter exists.

Sometimes even "glaringly subservient" isn't enough for a black male, as evidenced by the guy who was scrambling to comply with a patrol officer's commands and got shot for reaching back into his car for his license as ordered to do.

As I recall, the usual members blamed the victim that time too; saying he should have known immediately obeying the cop's orders would startle the cop into shooting him.
Link to that case? It doesn't sound familiar to me.
 

Rhea

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Sometimes even "glaringly subservient" isn't enough for a black male, as evidenced by the guy who was scrambling to comply with a patrol officer's commands and got shot for reaching back into his car for his license as ordered to do.

As I recall, the usual members blamed the victim that time too; saying he should have known immediately obeying the cop's orders would startle the cop into shooting him.
Link to that case? It doesn't sound familiar to me.

I think it was last fall. There was video. He pulled over into a gas station parking lot, full daylight. Cop had him get out, he got out, shouted "License!" or something, man turned to get his license, cop shot him. Luckily, he lived.
(edited - cop was charged, I didn't see the outcome, though)

here's the article

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

When Groubert asks for Jones' license, Jones pivots toward the vehicle he just exited -- the driver's door is still open -- and leans inside as if to retrieve something, the video shows.

About two seconds later, the trooper that police identify as Groubert comes into view with a gun drawn and yells "Get out of the car! Get out of the car!" The gun is fired -- at least four shots are heard -- and Jones steps away from the vehicle, raising his hands in the air and eventually moving off camera.

"I just got my license! You said get my license!" says someone off camera, apparently Jones.

After being told to put his hands behind his back, Jones asks: "What did I do, sir?"

"Are you hit?" asks another off-camera voice, apparently Groubert's.

"I think so," comes the response. "I can't feel my leg. I don't know what happened."

The conversation continues:

"Why did you shoot me?"

"Well, you dove head-first back into your car. Then you (unintelligible), I'm telling you get out of your car."

Note the time that passes between "get out of the car!" and "bang bang bang bang"
What the fuck is the innocent person supposed to think in those seconds besides, What The Fuck?
 

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I went looking to find if he was ever convicted and found this slimy, vile, despicable piece of shit.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/trial-verdict-extended-ex-south-carolina-cop


South Carolina Department of Public Safety later released another version of the dashboard camera video, which is almost an hour long, in which Groubert tells an individual, who appears to be his supervisor, his own version of the incident. His account appears to be in stark contrast of the footage recorded by the camera.

“Before I could even get out of my car he jumped out, stared at me, and as I jumped out of my car and identified myself, as I approached him, he jumped head-first back into his car … he jumped out of the car. I saw something black in his hands.”

Fucking liar.
Lock his ass up.


But not for a while, apparently,
On Monday, a solicitor requested that 270 days — the longest time possible — be allotted to reach a conclusion in the case of State Trooper Sean Groubert, The State reported. The solicitor can determine that a decision should be reached in 120, 180, or 270 days depending on the complexity of the hearings and the severity of the offense. The process was implemented in January 2003 to reduce the backlog of the county’s cases.

And THIS, folks, is why #BlackLivesMatter is a thing.
 

Rhea

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And to be accurate, he's probably not even "lying" because he first lied so thoroughly to himself that he became convinced that this was true. And this disturbing "police" mindset that his life is constantly in danger and it's always someone else's fault is what puts the rest of society at grave risk.

Lock his ass up.
 

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Link to that case? It doesn't sound familiar to me.

I think it was last fall. There was video. He pulled over into a gas station parking lot, full daylight. Cop had him get out, he got out, shouted "License!" or something, man turned to get his license, cop shot him. Luckily, he lived.
(edited - cop was charged, I didn't see the outcome, though)

here's the article

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/
Thanks. I'm presuming the officer meant to say "hands". Said the wrong word and responded with force when the man did something other than what was expected. What an unbelievably sad chain of events. Thankfully he did survive!

ETA: Just saw the following post. I could still be right, but I would think an officer would admit a mistake if that was the case. You fuck up like that and then try to get the guy sent to jail?! Shouldn't be an officer anymore, absolutely nothing less than that.
 

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]Thanks. I'm presuming the officer meant to say "hands". Said the wrong word and responded with force when the man did something other than what was expected. What an unbelievably sad chain of events. Thankfully he did survive!
.

My first quote was from memory. He didn't just say the one word after all, he said, "can I see your license, please?"

And a further discussion of the fuill video suggests that the guy did not see the cop, pulled into the gas station for a drink and got out. Cop says seatbelt, he says, "I just took it off to get out of the car,"

And it goes to hell from there, courtesy of unbalanced man with gun and attitude.
 

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Sometimes even "glaringly subservient" isn't enough for a black male, as evidenced by the guy who was scrambling to comply with a patrol officer's commands and got shot for reaching back into his car for his license as ordered to do.

As I recall, the usual members blamed the victim that time too; saying he should have known immediately obeying the cop's orders would startle the cop into shooting him.
Link to that case? It doesn't sound familiar to me.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

I will give this municipality credit, though. They fired him immediately and are also pressing charges.
 

Loren Pechtel

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You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

I just showed the police shootings are in the ballpark of 300/year. That's far less than 1000, not over 1000.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

Police shootings are going to happen:

1) Suicide by cop.
2) People who would prefer to die than go to jail.
3) Violent crazies.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

You're still showing you have fallen for the lies.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

Looking at Loren's link, I'm not seeing what he is seeing. What I am seeing is that death rates by 'legal intervention' occur at well over twice the rate for blacks compared with whites.

I wonder what his 'other sources' are?

The point of the link was to show the total numbers. It's pretty hard to have more than twice as many blacks be shot than the total number shot.

As for the racial makeup--Axulus has already shown that blacks are shot less often than their proportion of violent crime.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Our paper's archive is behind a paywall. Even if I found the article (something I've had great difficulty doing with their website) I couldn't link it.

What paper? I can get it.

Las Vegas Review Journal.

As usual, I'm having zero luck finding the article. Even with current stuff I fail more often than I succeed, I have never successfully found an old article.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I just showed the police shootings are in the ballpark of 300/year. That's far less than 1000, not over 1000.
Not quite. I can accept the number can be below 1,000. However, you have not proven the number is 300 /yr. The CDC has another database. It tracks Violent Deaths, but only for 17 states. In 2012 it reported 223 deaths via Legal Intervention. This excludes FL, NY, CA, and TX. There is a discrepancy about what these numbers mean, so nothing has been proven.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

Police shootings are going to happen:

1) Suicide by cop.
2) People who would prefer to die than go to jail.
3) Violent crazies.
That is correct. That doesn't address my comment about there not being a baseline number of expected and understandable (for the typical person) shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.
You're still showing you have fallen for the lies.
Umm... no I haven't. If you read my posts in this very thread, you'd know that. So I can only assume you haven't even bothered to read my posts before responding to them.
 

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I just showed the police shootings are in the ballpark of 300/year. That's far less than 1000, not over 1000.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

Police shootings are going to happen:

1) Suicide by cop.
2) People who would prefer to die than go to jail.
3) Violent crazies.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

You're still showing you have fallen for the lies.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize the difference between saying "over 1000" and "thousands", right? Hey, if the number is lower, that is fine. I thought there wasn't a database for that information, though.

So when a black male is shot and killed, there is typically a sense that there is no due process. Some blame it on race, but that probably isn't fair. The lack of due process is protection of the Police. That the shooting happened at all, however, has some basis of race. Now here is the rub. If the victim was white, there is doubt if he would have been roughed up and consequently killed. And this is what is bothering blacks. Hence #blacklivesmatter.
Look at Axulus' thread--blacks are shot less often than their level of criminal activity would indicate.
Would indicate? I wasn't aware there was an acceptable pr expected baseline for shootings.

What shouldn't be an issue divided by race, somehow is in this country.

And I explained why it's an issue. You've fallen for their deception hook, line and sinker.
No, you just don't know how to read a post at all and feel it necessary to respond to tidbits of it, taken out of context. Seriously, it is pathetic.

Looking at Loren's link, I'm not seeing what he is seeing. What I am seeing is that death rates by 'legal intervention' occur at well over twice the rate for blacks compared with whites.

I wonder what his 'other sources' are?

The point of the link was to show the total numbers. It's pretty hard to have more than twice as many blacks be shot than the total number shot.

As for the racial makeup--Axulus has already shown that blacks are shot less often than their proportion of violent crime.

So what violent crime was John Crawford guilty of? Levar Jones? Freddie Gray?
 

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Not quite. I can accept the number can be below 1,000. However, you have not proven the number is 300 /yr. The CDC has another database. It tracks Violent Deaths, but only for 17 states. In 2012 it reported 223 deaths via Legal Intervention. This excludes FL, NY, CA, and TX. There is a discrepancy about what these numbers mean, so nothing has been proven.

Remember that legal intervention isn't only police shootings. It also covers civilian shootings (~40% of the total) and executions (for which I have no idea of the %).

Police shootings are going to happen:

1) Suicide by cop.
2) People who would prefer to die than go to jail.
3) Violent crazies.
That is correct. That doesn't address my comment about there not being a baseline number of expected and understandable (for the typical person) shootings.

I didn't claim there was a baseline. I was saying that shootings of whites are almost certainly not racially motivated. If blacks are shot at a lower rate compared to their criminality doesn't that strongly suggest there is no racial element to them, either??

You're still showing you have fallen for the lies.
Umm... no I haven't. If you read my posts in this very thread, you'd know that. So I can only assume you haven't even bothered to read my posts before responding to them.

You're still assuming it's racially driven when the facts say otherwise.
 

Loren Pechtel

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So what violent crime was John Crawford guilty of? Levar Jones? Freddie Gray?

John Crawford: I would call it brandishing a firearm but I'm not sure if the law there considers it brandishing when it's a realistic replica rather than an actual gun. (I feel the handling rules for realistic fakes should be the same as the handling rules for the real thing other than in contexts where everyone knows the weapon is fake.)

Levar Jones: Note that the officer has been charged.

Freddie Gray: Red herring--there's no shooting here and nobody claiming it's a legal intervention. The question is accident or negligent homicide.
 

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So what violent crime was John Crawford guilty of? Levar Jones? Freddie Gray?

John Crawford: I would call it brandishing a firearm but I'm not sure if the law there considers it brandishing when it's a realistic replica rather than an actual gun. (I feel the handling rules for realistic fakes should be the same as the handling rules for the real thing other than in contexts where everyone knows the weapon is fake.)

Levar Jones: Note that the officer has been charged.

Freddie Gray: Red herring--there's no shooting here and nobody claiming it's a legal intervention. The question is accident or negligent homicide.

She asked you what violent crime John Crawford was guilty of. The correct answer is NONE. Even if you want to pretend he was "brandishing" a toy gun, he was not engaged in any sort of violent crime.
 

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So what violent crime was John Crawford guilty of? Levar Jones? Freddie Gray?

John Crawford: I would call it brandishing a firearm but I'm not sure if the law there considers it brandishing when it's a realistic replica rather than an actual gun. (I feel the handling rules for realistic fakes should be the same as the handling rules for the real thing other than in contexts where everyone knows the weapon is fake.)

Levar Jones: Note that the officer has been charged.

Freddie Gray: Red herring--there's no shooting here and nobody claiming it's a legal intervention. The question is accident or negligent homicide.

So: nothing. No violence. No threat of violence. Crawford was the victim of a pair of racist cretins who are directly responsible for his death, but will face no charges nor will the cops who killed him. For no reason. Btw, it is nice to see you finally admit it wasn't a gun. In fact, it was something random from a store shelf while talking to the mother of his child.

It is, I am sure, comfort to Jones' family that his murderer is being charged. Cold comfort is better than none.

And real progress that you will admit Gray's death merits criminal charges.
 

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In Australia we get a heavily filtered (censored?) details of the police shootings in the USA.
One thing that puzzles me is #blacklivesmatter.

Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?
That is are these people being shot/killed just by white officers or is it more equal opportunity situation?

I know that some blacks are killed by white police but I don not know about any others and their colour content.

what makes you think your news on the topic is being censored?

Filtered is a better word than censored.
We only get the headlines here, rarely the fuller detail or the nuances.
 

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Speaking of the Gray fellow's death we had a case here a number of years ago where an aboriginal man was found dead in his cell. An autopsy revealed he had a split liver. When asked how he got that the police replied that he must have fallen down the stairs. The police station had from memory only 3 or 4 steps.
The coroner did ask "How many times did he fall down the steps?"
Some police were charged, booted out of the force and gaoled.
 

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John Crawford: I would call it brandishing a firearm but I'm not sure if the law there considers it brandishing when it's a realistic replica rather than an actual gun. (I feel the handling rules for realistic fakes should be the same as the handling rules for the real thing other than in contexts where everyone knows the weapon is fake.)

Levar Jones: Note that the officer has been charged.

Freddie Gray: Red herring--there's no shooting here and nobody claiming it's a legal intervention. The question is accident or negligent homicide.

She asked you what violent crime John Crawford was guilty of. The correct answer is NONE. Even if you want to pretend he was "brandishing" a toy gun, he was not engaged in any sort of violent crime.

Laws against brandishing exist because people feel threatened. It's quite possible to have a violent crime in which nobody is hurt.
 

RavenSky

The Doctor's Wife
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She asked you what violent crime John Crawford was guilty of. The correct answer is NONE. Even if you want to pretend he was "brandishing" a toy gun, he was not engaged in any sort of violent crime.

Laws against brandishing exist because people feel threatened. It's quite possible to have a violent crime in which nobody is hurt.

Post the exact laws you are relying on with links back to their original source.

Remember, we have video tape of exactly what John Crawford was doing. You are going to have to produce the applicable law and show how it relates to John Crawford's actions; or you are going to have to concede that John Crawford was not engaged in a violent crime.
 

Nice Squirrel

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Are the blacks (I dislike using such a term but have no better alternative) fearful of the police in general or just white police?

Police in general. Justice has been unequal for nearly all our history and they have good reason to be fearful as one wrong action or word can send them to jail on trumped up charges. I've talked to black men and their attorneys who are hauled into court to face charges of made up crimes like "lurking with intent" (standing on a corner), "hailing drug customers"(motioning to a friend's car), and "terrorist glances/casing an object for future crimes" (staring off into space). -- I'm sure we have people here that will defend such actions.

Yes, Black people have reason to fear police. They are suspect simply because they are Black.

The judges were livid when these cases come before them, but with the dockets full on a Monday morning the DA's office hadn't had time to look over the case load in front of them and release those that are charged with crimes that don't exist. Every few years there is a crack down, but the problem isn't going away. These men get arrest records and have difficulty finding jobs because of it.

Correction:
Lurking is actually illegal in Minneapolis, as is spitting on the sidewalk. Both are misdemeanors and are not arrestable offenses. They are both used to as "tools" that allow officers to question and detain individuals. The majority of those individuals being of African American decent.
 
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