Boltzman's brain

[BH]

I read somewhere about some guy named Botlzman having a brain that was more than likely to appear in the universe randomly than the world we live in with life.

Would anyone explain this theory to me in more detail?

I do not understand why it is more likely to have his brain appear. A brain is a multicellular organ composed of nerves, dna, ect. It seems to me you would have just as much chance of having one celled organisms appear in the universe or cellular colonies or perhaps even more likely than a whole brain.

And why would it have to be a brain? Why wouldn't it be easier for his spleen to appear, or his buttocks, or his tooth?

 

[Bronzeage]

Never mistake facetious banter for theory.

Botlzman was a physicist who left us with Botlzman's constant, which is a number that is suppose to relate the temperature of a gas to the actual kinetic energy of the molecules or atoms of the gas.

After that, all kinds of strange probabilities have to be imagined, because you can't actually see the gas particles crashing into one another, but it must be happening, because the gas gets hotter when heated.

The basic idea of Botlzman's brain is that in an infinite universe, it is possible for random interactions to form something that could wake up and say, "I exist." As silly as this seems, if one doesn't want to include an omnipotent creator of Heaven and Earth in the deal, the Botlzman's brain scenario is exactly what happened.

 

[another1]

I thought it was as if to say.. if I'm conscious, and made of the same stuff out in infinite space.. then chances are that just the conscious part is going to pop up somewhere. The stuff happens on some kind of grid that folds like a wet paper towel, or something insane like that. Remembered this from looking at a conversation between pantheists who were saying Boltzman over and over. Looked into it for myself - saw the word thermodynamics - stopped looking.

So you're saying you don't need to know the maths behind it to get the gist then. How likely do you think a Boltzman brain could floating around close by? Would be cool to catch one. Put it in a jar and yell at it. Break it. Say "you're just the product of an insane mathematician, that is all you are". Drive it totally nuts and then release it back into space. According to Boltzman, that is, and has happened?

 

[BH]

I think bronzage is right. If we were not created by a god then the first lifeform capable of self replication was the equivalent of a boltzman brain.

It's just the apologists confuse me all of the time. They try to use an argument like Boltzman brains to prove god had to have made life but their own argument refutes it. A brain is more complex than a the most simple theorized lifeform--a molecule surrounded by a lipid wall that could self reproduce. If you could get a brain statistically speaking pretty easy then you certainly could have got the more simpler spark of life found in the self replicating molecule.They refute themselves with their own argument.

 

[Lion IRC]

Boltzman Brain is a placeholder term until people stop being embarassed about words like 'soul' and Higher Beings. And God as an explanation for stuff.

It's OK everybody. There is stuff which transcends our (mundane) terrestrial view of existence.

Imagine a microscopic organism that was so methodologically skeptical and so anti-God that it refused to think there was stuff like Boltzman Brains and space shuttles and Hadron Coliders and Youtube. They wouldn't believe it until they see it with their own eyes. And when they do, they will sheepishly say...oh yeah, well it's all natural. So it's OK.

God is as natural or as unnatural as you want to think of Him.

 

[Juma]

I read somewhere about some guy named Botlzman having a brain that was more than likely to appear in the universe randomly than the world we live in with life.

Would anyone explain this theory to me in more detail?

I do not understand why it is more likely to have his brain appear. A brain is a multicellular organ composed of nerves, dna, ect. It seems to me you would have just as much chance of having one celled organisms appear in the universe or cellular colonies or perhaps even more likely than a whole brain.

And why would it have to be a brain? Why wouldn't it be easier for his spleen to appear, or his buttocks, or his tooth?

How about start googling "boltzmann brain"? The Wikipedia article is a good start.

Dont trust whst has been posted previously in this thread.
None of the posts here has said anything useful.

 

[another1]

So you DO need to know math. I knew it was too good to be true. I need entropy explained in two sentences, with no words over three syllables long. Darn Boltron brains are floatin somewhere out there and ima catch some.

 

[BH]

I read somewhere about some guy named Botlzman having a brain that was more than likely to appear in the universe randomly than the world we live in with life.

Would anyone explain this theory to me in more detail?

I do not understand why it is more likely to have his brain appear. A brain is a multicellular organ composed of nerves, dna, ect. It seems to me you would have just as much chance of having one celled organisms appear in the universe or cellular colonies or perhaps even more likely than a whole brain.

And why would it have to be a brain? Why wouldn't it be easier for his spleen to appear, or his buttocks, or his tooth?

How about start googling "boltzmann brain"? The Wikipedia article is a good start.

Dont trust whst has been posted previously in this thread.
None of the posts here has said anything useful.

I did read about it on the internet. And that is why I came here to get more information.

 

[Bronzeage]

I read somewhere about some guy named Botlzman having a brain that was more than likely to appear in the universe randomly than the world we live in with life.

Would anyone explain this theory to me in more detail?

I do not understand why it is more likely to have his brain appear. A brain is a multicellular organ composed of nerves, dna, ect. It seems to me you would have just as much chance of having one celled organisms appear in the universe or cellular colonies or perhaps even more likely than a whole brain.

And why would it have to be a brain? Why wouldn't it be easier for his spleen to appear, or his buttocks, or his tooth?

How about start googling "boltzmann brain"? The Wikipedia article is a good start.

Dont trust whst has been posted previously in this thread.
None of the posts here has said anything useful.

I beg your pardon. I had no idea we stood in the presence of a Boltzmann Brain aficionado.

 

[Juma]

How about start googling "boltzmann brain"? The Wikipedia article is a good start.

Dont trust whst has been posted previously in this thread.
None of the posts here has said anything useful.

I did read about it on the internet. And that is why I came here to get more information.

did you read the wikipedia article?

 

[BH]

I did read about it on the internet. And that is why I came here to get more information.

did you read the wikipedia article?

Yes I did. It still seems to me that if you can have something like a lone brain come into existence you can have a single celled lifeform even more so, especially the most basic one cell lifeform like a molecule surrounded by a lipid layer that self replicates.

And I do not understand why it has to be a brain. I was kinda joking but still serious about why it could not be a spleen, a liver, or a buttocks.

And if the one celled lifeform did come along Boltzman style many years ago why couldn't it have evolved and branched off into what we have now?

Like I said in another post. I believe in Allah but I do not want to turn a blind eye at apologetic arguments that seem to me to make no sense.

 

[Bronzeage]

did you read the wikipedia article?

Yes I did. It still seems to me that if you can have something like a lone brain come into existence you can have a single celled lifeform even more so, especially the most basic one cell lifeform like a molecule surrounded by a lipid layer that self replicates.

And I do not understand why it has to be a brain. I was kinda joking but still serious about why it could not be a spleen, a liver, or a buttocks.

And if the one celled lifeform did come along Boltzman style many years ago why couldn't it have evolved and branched off into what we have now?

Like I said in another post. I believe in Allah but I do not want to turn a blind eye at apologetic arguments that seem to me to make no sense.

It's a thought experiment, not a serious hypothesis that a particular human's brain might congeal from random interactions. There's nothing to prevent it from happening, but there's no evidence that it did. A liver or a spleen is also possible.

There's no time frame for the Boltzman's brain scenario. Suppose life did evolve from organic protein molecules. Take that for a starting point and the human body as an end point. Somewhere on the direct line between us and the protein, there has to be a single cell stage, even many different single cell creatures, which later combined together when sexual reproduction evolved. Whatever path the ascent took, it started with a chemical compound and ended up with a sentient being.

The only reason any of this is of any significance is because of the sentient part. There are no beetles, bears, or slime molds, contemplating how they came to be.

The Creator of Heaven and Earth model has a lot of appeal, but then some smartass asks, who created the creator, and then we have questions about why he would create us and then create the Ebola virus to kill so many of us. We don't have to ask our grand-protein such a question.

 

[BH]

I understand but you do see the point where the apologist seems to undermine his own position using such an argument though?

 

[Bronzeage]

I understand but you do see the point where the apologist seems to undermine his own position using such an argument though?

Of course. They try to reduce evolution to an absurdity, but in the process do the same to their creation scenario.

It's much the same as asking why God created the universe we know, since being all powerful means he could have created different universes.

 

[BH]

Is it true in past times philosphers theorized other worlds had to be inhabited because god made them and would not let anything go to waste? And if the people living at that time had developed the ability to travel to other worlds they would have interpreted life on the other worlds as a proof of God? It's been a long time since I have read a lot of philosophy and even then not too much. I do not want to set up any straw men I think they were called so someone correct me if I am wrong.

If I do remember correctly then it just goes to show how far off philosphical proofs can be, even those who seem sound in premises and conclusions until science advances and shows it to be wrong.

 

[bilby]

Is it true in past times philosphers theorized other worlds had to be inhabited because god made them and would not let anything go to waste? And if the people living at that time had developed the ability to travel to other worlds they would have interpreted life on the other worlds as a proof of God? It's been a long time since I have read a lot of philosophy and even then not too much. I do not want to set up any straw men I think they were called so someone correct me if I am wrong.

If I do remember correctly then it just goes to show how far off philosphical proofs can be, even those who seem sound in premises and conclusions until science advances and shows it to be wrong.

That diverse groups of intelligent philosophers can take the same starting premises, and reach diametrically opposed (and contradictory) conclusions about the desires of the gods, is pretty good evidence that it's not reasonable to believe that anyone knows what gods desire.

Given that it is impossible to know what gods desire, it is VITALLY important to dismiss any claims made on this basis.

The god hypothesis is of exactly zero value. But it's an excellent projection screen for human tyranny - "I don't want you to masturbate" leads to "So fucking what, piss off and stop bothering me"; But "God doesn't want you to masturbate" for some bizarre reason leads to "Oh, I had better feel ashamed. What else does God want? Yes, of course I will give you 10% of my income to tell me all about it, so I never need to feel shame again. See you on Sunday!"

Humans are odd.

 

[Juma]

did you read the wikipedia article?

Yes I did. It still seems to me that if you can have something like a lone brain come into existence you can have a single celled lifeform even more so, especially the most basic one cell lifeform like a molecule surrounded by a lipid layer that self replicates.

And I do not understand why it has to be a brain. I was kinda joking but still serious about why it could not be a spleen, a liver, or a buttocks.

And if the one celled lifeform did come along Boltzman style many years ago why couldn't it have evolved and branched off into what we have now?

Like I said in another post. I believe in Allah but I do not want to turn a blind eye at apologetic arguments that seem to me to make no sense.

1) The boltzmann brain paradox [BBP] is not an apologetic argument. Its a cosmologic thiught experiment that shows how wrong some sorts of probability calculations can be.it has really nothing to do with theology.

2) BBP was invented to invalidate the antroplogic principle [AP]. There are many variants of the AP but the main gist is this: the unlikelyness of the big bang is not a counter argument to it since without it we wouldnt be here at all. (Its somewhat like asking why you always are present wherever you go.. you have to be there to be aware that you are there... )

3) the reason why it has to be a brain is because a brain is sapient. It has to be something that can ask the question "how probable is it that the universe is like this?"

 

[Kharakov]

The god hypothesis is of exactly zero value. But it's an excellent projection screen for human tyranny - "I don't want you to masturbate" leads to "So fucking what, piss off and stop bothering me"; But "God doesn't want you to masturbate" for some bizarre reason leads to "Oh, I had better feel ashamed.

It seems like the "God wants you to masturbate" churches have died out. Maybe a curse from God?

 

[Sarpedon]

You are misinformed. Ritual masturbation is practiced in a number of Hindu sects. I'd give you links to websites, but it is parlous to google such terms.

 

[Bronzeage]

The god hypothesis is of exactly zero value. But it's an excellent projection screen for human tyranny - "I don't want you to masturbate" leads to "So fucking what, piss off and stop bothering me"; But "God doesn't want you to masturbate" for some bizarre reason leads to "Oh, I had better feel ashamed.

It seems like the "God wants you to masturbate" churches have died out. Maybe a curse from God?

Any sect which does not encourage procreation among it's members, has a limited life span. Celibacy works well, as long as it is confined to a small percentage of the congregation. No religious sect has ever survived on evangelizing and recruiting, alone.