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Brainwashing of Theists - 2 - What about our LIVING loved ones?

Learner,

You can not possibly compare biblical accounts to courtroom testimony.

Just admit it, you have a faith in the veracity of writings over 2000 years old without any concrete evidence. That is religious faith.

As I have said before I think heists who argue with us atheists here is more about convincing themselves than convincing us.

If you really have faith and believe in the bible, what is there for you to debate?
 
Greedy people don't go to heaven in Christianity...did you not know that'? You haven't got any grasp of the Gospel contexts at all, have you?

Nobody goes to heaven because it doesn’t exist. If you have evidence that it does, please present it.
My conversation would be different to you in a 3 way conversation

You have made a 'truth claim' - "Heaven doesn't exist". What evidence do you have to back up the claim? Unless it's really a faith claim.

No, YOU have made a truth claim — that heaven exists.
I believe it is truth, yes of course. And so, in terms of being on a mutual 'level playing field', with a non-theist. I am quite comfortable to define my belief as a faith claim.

A faith claim believed without evidence or reason is fideism. You admit you have no evidence.
In terms of a common notion that is often said 'you can't prove either way God exists or doesn't exist.. That's is where I place your "truth claim", that's really just a faith claim.


That is a positive claim that requires evidence to back it up. Mine is a negative claim that requires no such evidence.
Then your negative claim just simply means...

..there might be..or there might not be a God...

Therefore ...your initial claim (...Heaven doesn't exist..) is just a faith claim... and not a truth claim, especially since you have negative evidence.

Lack of belief is the opposite of faith. Universal negative statements do not require evidence.
I have given my answer when you asked for evidence in one of you previous posts, then you couldn't accept the answer and you asked again, as if the question you asked was a different question I answered to.. Now this is a third time.

I said I trust the authors of the bible..Faith mentioned in post #28 which would include all the corroborations outside the bible.

Which corroborations outside the bible are those?
Archeology and verified locations, various writing perspectives, especially the negative ones about Jesus or Christians from the Jews and Romans that gives more reasons for the existence of these important characters of the Gospels. The psychological and emotional states with the strongly emphasis on truth telling... to sum up quite briefly.

None of those constitute evidence of the supernatural. They maty be evidence that someone named Jesus actually existed.

And, speaking of witnesses, isn’t it funny that there are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus’s supposed miracles and resurrection?
Your “trusting” the authors of the bible is NOT evidence.

Also.The main evidence mostly used in courts today are peoples testimonies and witness statements.

This is not correct. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. The main evidence used in courts comes from forensics.
 
Greedy people don't go to heaven in Christianity...did you not know that'? You haven't got any grasp of the Gospel contexts at all, have you?

Nobody goes to heaven because it doesn’t exist. If you have evidence that it does, please present it.
My conversation would be different to you in a 3 way conversation

You have made a 'truth claim' - "Heaven doesn't exist". What evidence do you have to back up the claim? Unless it's really a faith claim.

No, YOU have made a truth claim — that heaven exists.
I believe it is truth, yes of course. And so, in terms of being on a mutual 'level playing field', with a non-theist. I am quite comfortable to define my belief as a faith claim.

A faith claim believed without evidence or reason is fideism. You admit you have no evidence.
Sorry, I tjought to meet you on an 'equal level playing field', so to speak.
On the "you can't prove either way that God exists or doesn't exist"plane.

In terms of a common notion that is often said 'you can't prove either way God exists or doesn't exist.. That's is where I place your "truth claim", that's really just a faith claim.


That is a positive claim that requires evidence to back it up. Mine is a negative claim that requires no such evidence.
Then your negative claim just simply means...

..there might be..or there might not be a God...

Therefore ...your initial claim (...Heaven doesn't exist..) is just a faith claim... and not a truth claim, especially since you have negative evidence.

Lack of belief is the opposite of faith. Universal negative statements do not require evidence.

The Lack of Believe that doesn't require evidence is a faith claim when you said " Heaven doesn't exist!"

I have given my answer when you asked for evidence in one of you previous posts, then you couldn't accept the answer and you asked again, as if the question you asked was a different question I answered to.. Now this is a third time.

I said I trust the authors of the bible..Faith mentioned in post #28 which would include all the corroborations outside the bible.

Which corroborations outside the bible are those?
Archeology and verified locations, various writing perspectives, especially the negative ones about Jesus or Christians from the Jews and Romans that gives more reasons for the existence of these important characters of the Gospels. The psychological and emotional states with the strongly emphasis on truth telling... to sum up quite briefly.

None of those constitute evidence of the supernatural. They maty be evidence that someone named Jesus actually existed.

The existence of Jesus is the most important. And... the authors who wrote about him - showing Jesus's followers with their telling human traits - writing about certain things Jesus teaches but they don't understand, is interesting to me...BUT they DO understand the utmost prerogative when truth telling is concerned - writing down events that must relay the message to others around the world.

(There's a lot more I could add... with patience and revisiting the sciptures, catching up with other Christians who are far more advanced, plus other reminders)

Anyway we get the Son of God narrative from things like when Jesus was crucified for blasphemy i.e indicating Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.

And, speaking of witnesses, isn’t it funny that there are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus’s supposed miracles and resurrection?
Your “trusting” the authors of the bible is NOT evidence.

Also.The main evidence mostly used in courts today are peoples testimonies and witness statements.

This is not correct. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. The main evidence used in courts comes from forensics.

Eye witnesses are a key part and of course so is forensics an important part too. So what? It doesn't improve your case 'against"mine.

Forensics can reveal statements to be authentic or true depending on the evidence material being tested, which doesn't mean the result is automatically determined be a negative finding against witness statements.
 
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Learner,

You can not possibly compare biblical accounts to courtroom testimony. Just admit it, you have a faith in the veracity of writings over 2000 years old without any concrete evidence. That is religious faith.
Admit to what? I would have but there are spanners-in-that-works in the form of a character witness, in this case regarding Luke.

A former Atheist who set out to disprove Lukes writings can attest to Luke as being credible.

(I borrowed a section courtesy of the site https://bibleapologetics.org/luke-a-historian-of-the-first-rank/ Its an apologetics site which came up first when I type Sir Will Ramsay but that isn't an issue)

One of the greatest archaeologists of all time, Sir William Ramsay, didn’t think Luke was very accurate. In fact, he traveled throughout Asia Minor, Greece, and other places during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s in an attempt to refute Luke’s historical records in the Book of Acts.

Before his travels he believed that Luke couldn’t have been very accurate because of a lack of archaeological evidence to support Luke’s claims. Ramsey, after years of study, found the exact opposite to be true, and he completely reversed his position. In fact, Ramsey went on to comment: “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, he is possessed of the true historic sense … in short, this author should be placed along with the greatest of historians.”1


As I have said before I think heists who argue with us atheists here is more about convincing themselves than convincing us.

In those terms you think a lot... but it doesn't neccessarily always mean thats the way it is. I think not in this case.
If you really have faith and believe in the bible, what is there for you to debate?

I trust the writings in various ways (as I describe in another post(s).

Technically for the sake of argument, lets say, purely by faith (blind faith), and you understand the main concept of the writings and the requirements. You can still debate someone who misrepresents or distorts the contexts of the scriptures in that debate.
 
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A former Atheist who set out to disprove Lukes writings can attest to Luke as being credible.
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that William Mitchell Ramsay was ever an atheist, and plenty of reasons to think he was not. He was educated in a Christian sect that taught that the Gospels were largely fictionalised accounts, but that's not atheism, not by a very long chalk.

"Devout Christian, who doubts Gospels, subsequently decides that his doubt was unfounded" would be a less effective, but also less disingenous headline.
 
Learner

A lot of hand waving. The inescapable fact is there is no contemporaneous accounts that validate the gospel Jesus.

For the OT supernatural events accounts there is none at all. Wandering for 40 years in a desert not seen by anyone and parting the waters.

Not it is not the 'gospel Jesus', it is the gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. No ne really knows who the authors were.
 
Learner, there were no contemporaneous witnesses that left behind any written records of Jesus’s life, his ministry, his alleged miracles and alleged resurrection. There are just stories made up decades after he died. So in addition to heaving no forensic evidence you have no eyewitness evidence, either.
 
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that William Mitchell Ramsay was ever an atheist, and plenty of reasons to think he was not.
You mean you can make judgments of people based on what they write or say? I didn't realize we can do that
 
Learner, there were no contemporaneous witnesses that left behind any written records of Jesus’s life, his ministry, his alleged miracles and alleged resurrection. There are just stories made up decades after he died. So in addition to heaving no forensic evidence you have no eyewitness evidence, either.
Theists can't get past the idea of Heaven - the easy lazy life - that is what they are after
And so desperately cling to the notion of a magic, miracle man
The knight in shining armor will come to SAVE his damsels in distress and then easy lazy living forever In Heaven!
.
They talk of God being perfect, yet He made an imperfect world
A world where we have to WORK for a living, PAY for what we eat, live, EARN what we desire, obtain
And face the world and all its problems as adults - they don't like any of this
God's work is no good, God gets an F
And so they eagerly embrace religions and their cheap promises of an everlasting life of ease & comfort
 
Can you prove that garden fairies, Santa Claus, or elves don't exist, Learner? I doubt you can because while all of these things are obviously fairy tales, like gods and prophets are to me, it's impossible to prove they don't exist. Believing something without evidence is called faith. It's something that makes you feel good or that you like or have been told is true. It's as simple as that. I was told all of that was true when I was a child, but as I grew up, I realized I had been told to believe in fairly tales or magic. I think garden fairies and angels are adorable, as well as gargoyles, but they are just pretend or mythology just like Zeus and Venus etc. And, as the saying goes, I just believe in one less god than you do.

How in the world do you accept one god is real when many thousands of gos have been imagined by humans over thousands of years? If your religion makes you happy and makes you a better person, go for it, but don't try to convince others that it's real and don't judge others based on what they believe, if you must judge at all.

I probably shouldn't respond to Rama since he thinks I'm a big meanie, but let me try to explain why I think most Christians and Muslims believe they will live in a heavenly world when they die. Life is often hard. It's a struggle and for some people, it's nothing but misery and suffering. So, imo, heaven was likely invented to give people hope, to let them think that their suffering will be over when they die.

Of course suffering is over at death, but we aren't going to exist in a better place. We simply decompose and return to being dust. That makes the most sense to me, but I sort of understand why so many people can't accept their own mortality, so they have faith in a heavenly afterlife. I guess they just think that those who are suffering on earth will eventually join them. Maybe they feel that they had to suffer to deserve their place in heaven. Who knows?

Humans have even invented the "Rainbow Bridge", a place where our beloved pets cross over to the afterlife, where we will eventually join them. I get the desire to believe that, I just see it as wishful thinking. I don't condemn them. I just think they believe in a fairy tale, like Santa, Goldilocks, etc.

When I used to ask my late father when I was a child being indoctrinated in evangelical Christianity, why god would punish those outside of our religion, he'd always say something like, "I don't know but I'm sure god will explain to us when we get to heaven"
What more can you tell a little kid who is skeptical of what she is being told to believe? My father was a very creative man, but he wasn't the least bit intellectual, so when my mom insisted that he be "saved" so he wouldn't go to hell, he eventually fell for it. I wish my parents had remained non religious like they were during my early childhood, as things got worse when they started believing the conservative, Biblical mythology literally. Still, I didn't judge them as they couldn't help who they were, as I don't believe in total free will. They were just victims of an indoctrination that for some reason appealed to them.

Here are a few of favorite parts of some Bible verses, Judge not that ye be not judged, and The truth shall set you free. Love one another etc. But, those have nothing to do with religioun per se. They are just good words to try and live by.
 
Learner, there were no contemporaneous witnesses that left behind any written records of Jesus’s life, his ministry, his alleged miracles and alleged resurrection. There are just stories made up decades after he died. So in addition to heaving no forensic evidence you have no eyewitness evidence, either.
Here's the thing.
If the gospels were true, or even reasonably close, I'd expect a huge immediate reaction from the eye witnesses. If a miracle working demi-god were publicly executed and then reappeared the next week, I'd fully expect tumult. Crowds of people in the streets. Mobs in the Temple yard, outside Pilates palace, all kinds of stuff. Regardless of any individual's opinions, I'd expect a bunch of stuff that got noticed! But, no,
crickets...

The fact that the eye witnesses didn't do anything that was noticed leaves me convinced that they knew that nothing important happened. The Legend of the Christ was a much later invention, by religious zealots/grifters, distant in time and place. That's why it was built on a foundation of Greco-Roman traditions, because Greco-Roman pagans were the target audience.
Tom
 
Learner, there were no contemporaneous witnesses that left behind any written records of Jesus’s life, his ministry, his alleged miracles and alleged resurrection. There are just stories made up decades after he died. So in addition to heaving no forensic evidence you have no eyewitness evidence, either.
Here's the thing.
If the gospels were true, or even reasonably close, I'd expect a huge immediate reaction from the eye witnesses. If a miracle working demi-god were publicly executed and then reappeared the next week, I'd fully expect tumult. Crowds of people in the streets. Mobs in the Temple yard, outside Pilates palace, all kinds of stuff. Regardless of any individual's opinions, I'd expect a bunch of stuff that got noticed! But, no,
crickets...

The fact that the eye witnesses didn't do anything that was noticed leaves me convinced that they knew that nothing important happened. The Legend of the Christ was a much later invention, by religious zealots/grifters, distant in time and place. That's why it was built on a foundation of Greco-Roman traditions, because Greco-Roman pagans were the target audience.
Tom

I think that’s right, and the legend of Jesus has important echoes with the Dionysius legend.
 
A former Atheist who set out to disprove Lukes writings can attest to Luke as being credible.
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that William Mitchell Ramsay was ever an atheist, and plenty of reasons to think he was not. He was educated in a Christian sect that taught that the Gospels were largely fictionalised accounts, but that's not atheism, not by a very long chalk.
You'll have to give a few more details than that to show he wasn't an atheist.

More so, that this would make his claim invalid in anyway.

"Devout Christian, who doubts Gospels, subsequently decides that his doubt was unfounded" would be a less effective, but also less disingenous headline.

It's all about the main point 'which requires honesty', regardless of whether you are religious or not...

...which means not to dismiss or ignore his main point about Luke being a first class Historian.
 
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You'll have to give a few more details than that to show he wasn't an atheist.
You claimed he was an atheist.

He wouldn't be the first person who cashed in by publishing stuff that Christians really want to hear.
I've never heard of this guy. But I do remember Lee Strobel, who majorly made bank by lying in ways Christians were very willing to pay for. His first book, "The Case for Christ", sold millions of copies. Despite being a bunch of dishonest crap attributed to "experts".
Tom
 
A former Atheist who set out to disprove Lukes writings can attest to Luke as being credible.
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that William Mitchell Ramsay was ever an atheist, and plenty of reasons to think he was not. He was educated in a Christian sect that taught that the Gospels were largely fictionalised accounts, but that's not atheism, not by a very long chalk.
You'll have to give a few more details than that to show he wasn't an atheist.

More so, that this would make his claim invalid in anyway.

"Devout Christian, who doubts Gospels, subsequently decides that his doubt was unfounded" would be a less effective, but also less disingenous headline.

It's all about the main point 'which requires honesty', regardless of whether you are religious or not...

...which means not to dismiss or ignore his main point about Luke being a first class Historian.
If someone tells me that Joe Bloggs is a first class centre forward, I am more likely to give credence to their claim if they are not a huge fan of the club for which Mr Bloggs plays.

If Luke really is a first class historian, you should be able to easily find multiple attestations to this, from genuinely non-Christian sources.

That you lead with a weak source, and take pains to paint that source as far stronger than it actually is, undermines your position. Your choice therefore either shows you to be awful at debating, or wrong, or both.
 
You'll have to give a few more details than that to show he wasn't an atheist.
You claimed he was an atheist.

He wouldn't be the first person who cashed in by publishing stuff that Christians really want to hear.
I've never heard of this guy. But I do remember Lee Strobel, who majorly made bank by lying in ways Christians were very willing to pay for. His first book, "The Case for Christ", sold millions of copies. Despite being a bunch of dishonest crap attributed to "experts".
Tom
Its not my claim IOW... I didn't make it up! What doesn't seem important to you is Ramsay's credentials of the highest level.
 
A former Atheist who set out to disprove Lukes writings can attest to Luke as being credible.
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that William Mitchell Ramsay was ever an atheist, and plenty of reasons to think he was not. He was educated in a Christian sect that taught that the Gospels were largely fictionalised accounts, but that's not atheism, not by a very long chalk.
You'll have to give a few more details than that to show he wasn't an atheist.

More so, that this would make his claim invalid in anyway.

"Devout Christian, who doubts Gospels, subsequently decides that his doubt was unfounded" would be a less effective, but also less disingenous headline.

It's all about the main point 'which requires honesty', regardless of whether you are religious or not...

...which means not to dismiss or ignore his main point about Luke being a first class Historian.
If someone tells me that Joe Bloggs is a first class centre forward, I am more likely to give credence to their claim if they are not a huge fan of the club for which Mr Bloggs plays.
.. meaning,regardless of credentials biases set the criteria.

If Luke really is a first class historian, you should be able to easily find multiple attestations to this, from genuinely non-Christian sources.

I suppose then, it's hard to find multiple Christian historians attestations to Luke as likewise, "not being reliable too". Perhaps like the above, it all depends on the biases of either side.

That you lead with a weak source, and take pains to paint that source as far stronger than it actually is, undermines your position. Your choice therefore either shows you to be awful at debating, or wrong, or both.
Sure, ignore his credentials.

What were the particular points of Ramsay's findings did you disagree with again?
 
Perhaps like the above, it all depends on the biases of either side.
It really doesn't.

Non-Christian historians have no reason or motive to ignore Luke, if he is in fact a first class historian.

So if he is, we should see lots of non-Christians saying so.

Unless you have a persecution complex, and believe that all non-Christians are anti-Christians, who would ignore Luke regardless of how "first class" he is as an historian.

You seem to be making that mistaken assumption - that historians are in one of two camps, one of Christians, and one opposed to anything that might support a Christian position.

But the reality is that most historians are in a third camp - they couldn't care less about Christianity; Their sole focus is determining what events actually occurred in history, and what events are make-believe, tall-tales, inaccurate recountings, or just generally muddled and incomplete.

You claimed (or worse, passed on unquestioningly someone else's claim) that an atheist had lauded Like as a first class historian. That would be more impressive if it had been more than one historian; And if it had actually been an atheist, it would also have been more persuasive. As it turns out, it's a manipulative untruth.

So you have been demonstrated to have been disseminating at best inaccurate, and at worst outright false, claims. But rather than admit your error, you instead engaged in a false dichotomy fallacy - or perhaps just a persecution complex.

Your case was FAR stronger before you posted it, and gets weaker with every response you post.

You are coming across as someone who was so absolutely convinced by a terrible argument made by someone else, that you posted it here, expecting it to be a slam-dunk; And when called on it, you had insufficient understanding of the subject to defend the claim in any way.

Why, given this, would you expect anyone to take you seriously? Why do you continue to take your (demonstrably unreliable) sources seriously? They keep dropping you in it - telling you stuff that only the gullible would believe, and thereby setting you up to once again look a fool when you parrot their nonsense.

You seriously need to reconsider your choices of who to trust.

Unless, of course, you are in fact an anti-Christian agent-provocateur, who is here trying to make Christians look foolish. In which case, well done, you are an absolute master of your craft.
 
Your self-importance is remarkable.
Just Rama being Rama.
Why don't they ask - Now we are in Heaven, great, joy & everything
But how can we be happy knowing our loved ones are suffering on earth?
They forget all about those suckers and losers. They are in HEAVEN!! It’s pure joy, and fun in the sun. They sing and play harps. No dirges! Who wants to toil and suffer for a lifetime, pay tithes, give alms and end up on cloud nine, WORRYING?
That ain’t heaven, boss!
You’ll see… if you don’t end up in the Lake-O-FAHR !!!
Back in high school, I am
God, what would I give for some adult conversation
Back in high school I wouldn't give anything for any conversation. And I still don't generally in real life. I have even been picked on once for being a loner. Well guess why I'm a loner?
 
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