Brainwashing of Theists - 2 - What about our LIVING loved ones?

[Ramaraksha]

Because the titanic majority of actual journalists don’t ask about meeting our DEAD loved ones in heaven, and because the vast majority DO inquire about LIVING loved ones, your question is meaningless.

you seem to miss the point of the question - just blindly replying to a sentence or a post
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the point is - how can one be enjoying heaven while our loved ones are suffering on earth?
Can a Father or Mother be enjoying heaven while his/her family is homeless, kids going to bed hungry, their futures destroyed
some guys eyeing his young daughter?
I saw one video of a young woman somewhere in the poorer parts of Europe - her father died, mother had also died or was absent
She was now the head of the family, two younger siblings one was disabled or not right in the head - i forget now
She fell for a scam - good jobs in one of those oil rich countries - so she went - she needed the money
Well, you can imagine what it was - she spend a few years there & unable to take it anymore, she came back
Well, they interviewed her after she came back & she said she was considering going back
Because, well, the money was needed
Is her loving father looking from above and nodding his head in happiness
If he is crying - well is that all he can do? Just cry and wring his hands?
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What about if a war was going on?
Do the dead care no more about their country?
The killings, the rapes, torture?
And do they not appeal to God to do something?
Did God refuse?
Questions, questions!
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We see sports stars esp - when they win, point to the sky and go "My loved one is watching from above"
Are they still watching when bad things are happening like the above?
But what about Heaven being full of joy & happiness
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You claim that such questions were asked - pray tell what were the answers?
Those in Heaven care no more?
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I wish you would think things thru before you answer
What is the gist of the post? What is the poster trying to say?
The big picture, not the small details

 

[Ramaraksha]

It's a different concept than what you like to think.Anyway... No taxes, no health insurance that is unaffordable for many who have to work to the bone for, etc.& etc.. yay!

Death and Taxes in every reincarnation cycle. A system of Misery and Worries, yet you may still end up being a turkey in your next life. Let's hope Thanks Giving doesn't come too soon.

yes we agree that REAL LIFE is not easy
Nothing here is Free nor Given
But THIS is the world that God created for us, for you
You are finding fault with HIS WORK?
God gets an F from you?
You have a right to dislike His work, you will no longer be born as a human being
But to think you can run away & hide in a fantasy is crazy
Making God a Sugar Daddy who will nicely keep you in comfort like how the likes of Putin, Sugar Daddies
keep their prostitutes, gigolos, yes-men, sycophants, cronies in cozy comfort?
How can you lower yourself that way?
how can you lower God down to a Putin? A Sugar Daddy?

Not ALL people are able to put food on the table.

What did they do in their previous lives to deserve this situation? This is reincarnation for you...All the ills of the world keep coming round in each life cycle.

Master and Slave is the perfect ideal in your reincarnation when there are Caste Systems!

Hand in hand they go.

Not all Hindus believe or support caste - I am one of them - I think Caste is evil, wrong
God did not create Caste - WE Hindus did
It is like saying All Whites are Racist
All Jewish people only care about money
All black people are criminals
But that is religion for you - easy to use the broad brush
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And this mockery of caste is coming from people who say God will set people apart by religion!
So Caste division is wrong, but religious division and hate is ok?
Entire families, women, children, even babies to be callously dumped into hell!
Again, God did not create this division and hate - Christians and Muslims did

Greedy people don't go to heaven in Christianity...did you not know that'? You haven't got any grasp of the Gospel contexts at all, have you?

False narratives is your argument forte.

You need to tell us what value do you add to Heaven?
Why does God NEED you in Heaven?
What WORK do you DO in Heaven? And why does God need to get it done?
with DETAILS please
If you can't answer it - then you are a shameless freeloader sponging off God

You are selling Reincarnation by your anti-Christian Heaven. You want to bring along atheists as allies WITH you to argue against the theist Heaven but unfortunately... they are also arguing against you too.

Heaven is the idea that we can run away & hide from REAL LIFE and all its problems
A nice Sugar Daddy being will be happy to keep us in eternal comfort
Reincarnation is the idea that THIS is ALL there is!
God or Nature created this world for us - THIS is our home!
Good or bad, WE are not running away from REAL LIFE!
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As for Atheists - I personally do not care - this is not high school - we are not going to war with
each other - we are people discussing ideas - that is how I see it

Even Christianity says so with the story of Adam and Eve - Adam grew up and now must leave the nest and enter a harsh world

To survive in a harsh world needs people to be responsible, when most will do whatever means to survive which also means taking from other people by killing them. This is your preferred world.

Again, this is the world that GOD MADE!
Are you that arrogant that you will find fault with your LORD'S WORK?
It is not my preference - but I am no sycophant, freeloader, gigolo - I prefer to stand on my own two feet, make a honest living,
pay for my food - if stale bread is all I can afford, that is what I eat, EARN what I desire
I am not going to be, grovel, life off charity

You are haven't got a clue. You are saying Heaven should to be like the current world - A Survival of the Fittest world ?

There is no Heaven!
It is a fantasy created by religions!
There is only ONE WORLD! THIS ONE!
If life as God created for you is not your cup of tea, then you get to become one with the universe, your body
will disperse into the atoms that make up the universe

Ram...you are a posting contradiction at times. "Not everyone is cut out for human life" um, well yeah. The repetitive gloom and misery keeps coming round in reincarnation. Again it's a Survival of the Fittest world you seem to prefer.

Think hard and then join us

Sir, running away is not the answer!
Yes no one is saying life is easy - but THIS IS ALL THERE IS!
God is not rewarding Cowardice!
God is no Sugar Daddy! There is no easy lazy living sponging off God for eternity!

 

[Ramaraksha]

Nobody goes to heaven because it doesn’t exist. If you have evidence that it does, please present it.

That is why I ask questions - even simple questions like - what does one DO in Heaven?
Can you describe a DAY? ONE DAY? With DETAILS, please
Trip them up! It is the asking for DETAILS that gets them!

 

[Ramaraksha]

Then your negative claim just simply means...

..there might be..or there might not be a God...

Therefore ...your initial claim (...Heaven doesn't exist..) is just a faith claim... and not a truth claim, especially since you have negative evidence.

There could be invisible aliens looking down on us or invisible dragons the size of earth looking down on us
One can make up anything - how about the tooth fairy, leprechauns, big foot etc?
One can claim anything - if you went to a party and someone accuses you of stealing something that never existed
Can you prove your innocence?
But it is not up to you to prove it, is it? It is up to the person making the claim to prove that you stole it
You are making a claim of God or the Tooth Fairy or the leprechaun - prove it!
.
But then you can't stop there - please prove that God is a Sugar Daddy
Dividing people based on religion - throwing billions of innocent people - entire families, women, children, even babies - into gas chambers in hell!
The rest of you get to sit around singing his praises for eternity as shameless freeloaders!
Prove it, please!

 

[TomC]

Nobody goes to heaven because it doesn’t exist. If you have evidence that it does, please present it.

That is why I ask questions - even simple questions like - what does one DO in Heaven?
Can you describe a DAY? ONE DAY? With DETAILS, please
Trip them up! It is the asking for DETAILS that gets them!

This seems to be why your threads don't work out.

The enormous majority of posters on IIDB agree with you about Christian God and heaven and such. There's not much to discuss.
Tom

 

[Ramaraksha]

I probably shouldn't respond to Rama since he thinks I'm a big meanie,

All I was asking was for some respect for my views - you didn't have to come at me like that
you misunderstood the point I was making about dogs - I am a dog lover myself but I look at life from THEIR viewpoint
and it is not a pleasant life
WE use them for our pleasure, benefit - it was not a life of their choice
I have more than once shown how terrible life is for them - have you seen those posts?

but let me try to explain why I think most Christians and Muslims believe they will live in a heavenly world when they die. Life is often hard. It's a struggle and for some people, it's nothing but misery and suffering. So, imo, heaven was likely invented to give people hope,

Absolutely and then religions used that hope to divide and preach hate
Only those who believe in "our God" will get Heaven, the rest condemned to brutal Hell
It is frightening to understand that so many people are so willing to throw their fellow human beings under the bus
based on nothing but a cheap promise
So cheaply are souls sold!

When I used to ask my late father when I was a child being indoctrinated in evangelical Christianity, why god would punish those outside of our religion, he'd always say something like, "I don't know but I'm sure god will explain to us when we get to heaven"

Basically it says "God" doesn't care about morals, values, who we are as people
All he cares about is religion - imagine that - God is a common proselytizer!
It makes sense to me when I understand that ancient people living under Kings, Dictators used them as a template for God
Hence all the - "Get down on our knees, beg, grovel, obey, submit, sing his praises and pleased, he will reward us" bit
In a harsh, violent world, with enemies everywhere, Kings, Dictators rewarded those that were loyal to them & punished
those that did not
We see this happening in Russia and North Korea today and sadly now here in the US
Blind obedience, loyalty, submission to the "Dear loving Master" is paramount
Those who do so are rewarded handsomely and those that did not have paid the ultimate price - even Children have not been spared
And that is what we see going in these religions version of the after life
Their God is a Putin, a Kim Jong Un
Greed for the easy lazy life promised in Heaven has blinded them!
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Those ancient people were not bad nor stupid people
The life they lived was far different from ours - Kings, Dictators ruled with an iron fist - there was little or no democracy
And so they envisioned an afterworld that was similar to the life they had back then
We can see from the Terminology that religious people use - KING, KINGDOM, THRONE, PRINCE etc
And all the slave words - "Commandments, Submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, punish, forgive, Fear"
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What is shocking is to understand that those simple, innocent people made Gods & Religions that fit their way of life back then
but WE, the so-called far more advanced, educated, intelligent and armed with far more knowledge(well, the recent elections put this notion to bed), blindly follow THEIR views on God!
Praying to long dead Kings, Dictators!

 

[Ramaraksha]

This seems to be why your threads don't work out.

The enormous majority of posters on IIDB agree with you about Christian God and heaven and such. There's not much to discuss.
Tom

Well this thread seems to be doing very well - 4 pages so far
Do my questions bother you? Do you believe in Heaven? Is that the problem?
Do you have any answers to my questions?

 

[Learner]

Then your negative claim just simply means...

..there might be..or there might not be a God...

Therefore ...your initial claim (...Heaven doesn't exist..) is just a faith claim... and not a truth claim, especially since you have negative evidence.

There could be invisible aliens looking down on us or invisible dragons the size of earth looking down on us
One can make up anything - how about the tooth fairy, leprechauns, big foot etc?

...or reincarnation?

One can claim anything - if you went to a party and someone accuses you of stealing something that never existed
Can you prove your innocence?
But it is not up to you to prove it, is it? It is up to the person making the claim to prove that you stole it
You are making a claim of God or the Tooth Fairy or the leprechaun - prove it!

Jesus of the NT (and all the comes connected with it) is my validator.

Now . who's yours for reincarnation?

Will you answer?

.
But then you can't stop there - please prove that God is a Sugar Daddy

You can't keep to one script - you are so anti-Christian...you throw in other contradicting scripts being oblivious to what should be most obvious:

God is sugar-daddy making life easy....but but then he is also a dictator at the same time and wants you to suffer? Or, is that a thing only gods can do?

When Jesus says: 'By their fruits you shall know them'. Being applied here reveals your extreme agenda...

.... It's not an honest exchange of ideas as you falsely claim... It's all about your faith versus the Christian faith!

You are here to have people in agreement with you as allies, the idea to rally against the Christian faith whilst trying to portray your own faith very different, in that you think atheists would see a kinder perspective to Reincarnation as being the better faith.

Dividing people based on religion - throwing billions of innocent people - entire families, women, children, even babies - into gas chambers in hell!

That's not the Christian faith.

If you can be honest enough, will you show me where you read this?

The rest of you get to sit around singing his praises for eternity as shameless freeloaders!
Prove it, please!

It will be quite impossible to prove a false and distorted Christian narrative.
You don't seem to bother at all to get it right.

Can you prove to us..your Christian perspective is correct....and it's .not some extreme self-delusion fueled by some deep underlined passionate grudge/obsession/hate

Please!

 

[pood]

Then your negative claim just simply means...

..there might be..or there might not be a God...

Therefore ...your initial claim (...Heaven doesn't exist..) is just a faith claim... and not a truth claim, especially since you have negative evidence.

There could be invisible aliens looking down on us or invisible dragons the size of earth looking down on us
One can make up anything - how about the tooth fairy, leprechauns, big foot etc?

...or reincarnation?

One can claim anything - if you went to a party and someone accuses you of stealing something that never existed
Can you prove your innocence?
But it is not up to you to prove it, is it? It is up to the person making the claim to prove that you stole it
You are making a claim of God or the Tooth Fairy or the leprechaun - prove it!

Jesus of the NT (and all the comes connected with it) is my validator.

Now . who's yours for reincarnation?

Will you answer?

Why should he provide evidence when you provide none?

 

[pood]

Possible evidences of some form of reincanation:

Nietzsche’s Eternal Recurrence, supported by the block world model of Minkowski and cyclic universe models hinted at by some cosmology.

Tom Clark’s generic subjectivity model, possibly supported by analytic idealism

Evidence for Jesus as “validator” — zero.

 

[Learner]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.
There a lot more to detail for one post. The conversation doesn't end there.

(I still have to respond to a previous post of yours a page or two back..when I get the time)

 

[pood]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.

How’s that? Also, why didn’t he return to earth in “power and glory” in the lifetimes of his followers, as the gospels said he promised?

 

[Learner]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.

How’s that? Also, why didn’t he return to earth in “power and glory” in the lifetimes of his followers, as the gospels said he promised?

Does your false version of the Christian narrative include the appearance of the anti-christ and the beast? Weren't they supposed to be here before the Second Coming? It seems you are on par with Rams reading of the scriptures.

 

[pood]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.

How’s that? Also, why didn’t he return to earth in “power and glory” in the lifetimes of his followers, as the gospels said he promised?

Does your false version of the Christian narrative include the appearance of the anti-christ and the beast? Weren't they supposed to be here before the Second Coming? It seems you are on par with Rams reading of the scriptures.

It seems you are ignoring the clear claims in scripture that Jesus will return in power and glory before THIS (meaning the current) generation passes away.

 

[pood]

The Lowdown on God’s Showdown, on the Secular Web and also available in the new Sec Web book.

 

[Learner]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.

How’s that? Also, why didn’t he return to earth in “power and glory” in the lifetimes of his followers, as the gospels said he promised?

Does your false version of the Christian narrative include the appearance of the anti-christ and the beast? Weren't they supposed to be here before the Second Coming? It seems you are on par with Rams reading of the scriptures.

It seems you are ignoring the clear claims in scripture that Jesus will return in power and glory before THIS (meaning the current) generation passes away.

Meaning current. I see,ok yes there is often that confusion - the Transfiguration was one event, but then there is the big event, oddly often forgotten about in the argument The event being the Resurrection of Christ where many saw his Glory then.

( I was focused momentarily on the Second Coming described in Revelation)

 

[pood]

Pood, poo-pooing prematurely you have to give it a moment.

I said Jesus validates Heaven.

How’s that? Also, why didn’t he return to earth in “power and glory” in the lifetimes of his followers, as the gospels said he promised?

Does your false version of the Christian narrative include the appearance of the anti-christ and the beast? Weren't they supposed to be here before the Second Coming? It seems you are on par with Rams reading of the scriptures.

It seems you are ignoring the clear claims in scripture that Jesus will return in power and glory before THIS (meaning the current) generation passes away.

Meaning current? I see, well there does seem confusion because the Transfiguration was one event but then there was the Resurrection of Christ where many saw his Glory.

( I was focused momentarily on the Second Coming described in Revelation)

There is no contemporaneous account of ANYONE seeing his alleged resurrection. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life at all — surely hugely baffling, given the miracles and resurrection attributed to him.

The biblical accounts written decades after his death clearly put in his mouth on numerous occasions the claim that he would return yet again in “power and glory” before the people of the current generation died. That did not happen.

 

[bilby]

Jesus of the NT (and all the comes connected with it) is my validator.

It's a poor validator that is not ready or willing to be cross examined.

Perhaps you could invite this "Jesus" to join IIDB? He might do a better job than you do of being convincing (he could hardly do worse).

 

[bilby]

Does your false version of the Christian narrative include the appearance of the anti-christ and the beast? Weren't they supposed to be here before the Second Coming?

Indeed. so where the fuck are they?

If I say "Learner said he would be here without fail at 3pm", and one of your friends responded "His car was supposed to be in the carpark before he walks into the office, and it hasn't arrived yet", in what sense has your friend justified (or contradicted) your tardiness?

It's not even a bad excuse - it's no excuse at all.

 

[Elixir]

It's not even a bad excuse - it's no excuse at all.

WHOOSH!