Burqa ban in Denmark and it's backfiring spectacularly

[ruby sparks]

The other issue, and it is secondary, is that we're talking about Denmark, not, for example, Afghanistan. It would be slightly different (to some extent or in some ways at least) to support a ban in the latter.

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There are also partial analogies to things like banning FGM and foot-binding.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's your opinion.

Yes, I do. Denmark now has a fashion police. Incredibly embarrasing. Anybody who thinks that the west is for freedom, now knows better. Dumb dumb dumb.

Try harder

Ok. My conclusion is that it's nonsensical hogwash.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

Why?

Because, although it's not straightforward, I consider such things to be more repressive than freedom-enhancing. There's no doubt an argument to the contrary, but I don't think I've heard one I buy into. Whilst I accept that my position would involve restrictions and enforcements on others, I think it would be for the greater good, and more freedom-enhancing, basically, possibly on the basis that more people would be more free, even if some aren't.

The one part of your post I'm not sure I would agree with is your use of the word 'fashion'. That tends to imply free (or freer) choice than I believe generally pertains in this case. It is my understanding that many woman are coerced or pressured into wearing burqas and niqabs, and that is where my concern would be, if it's true. I'm not suggesting that many other items of clothing are not worn because of some sort of pressure too, but I draw a line somewhere in this case.

Everybody is coerced into wearing clothes to help them fit into various tribes. It's completely normal. What I think westerners who are for a burqha ban have an issue with is that other values than pure consumption culture is more important. The whole point of the Muslim modesty rules is precisely that. It's rude for rich people to advertise their wealth in clothing. So all Muslims should all dress like poor people. It goes right against the highest value of a capitalist country. It makes us nervous and question our values. Which is good. As with every trend some get carried away, and therefore burqhas.

I personally think Islam is nonsense. All of it. I think burqhas is dumb. The motivation is dumb. But I'm all for people figuring all this out on their own. I don't think there's that many adult Muslim women living in the west who are forced into wearing burqhas. Based on what I've read, it seems to be volontary. I remember talking to a girl who grew up in London in a very strict Muslim family. Where she had to wear a shawl. She wore it to and from school. Took it off when in school. What are the parents going to do about it?

I'm all for a ban on niqabs and burqas in school for children. Because children are shifty fuckers who can't be trusted. A teacher must be able to see their lying little faces. Or they won't be able to do their jobs.

- - - Updated - - -

The other issue, and it is secondary, is that we're talking about Denmark, not, for example, Afghanistan. It would be slightly different (to some extent or in some ways at least) to support a ban in the latter.

Turkey banned Islamic clothing for many years. How did that work out? It's a waste of energy IMHO

There are also partial analogies to things like banning FGM and foot-binding.

Is it really?

 

[bilby]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

Denmark has a state religion (Christianity). We have freedom of religion as a law. But any other conflicting law trumps it. It's not an especially powerful law. This is not USA. It's more like a guiding principle, than a law you can use to get away with stuff. In Scandinavia we really don't care about religion anymore. It's mostly evaporated out of society... pretty much. Means nothing.

Danes are also pretty irreverant people. A Muslim who won't eat pork at lunch at work will be made fun of. This would not be considered racist or islamophobic. Danes do not care about political correctness. They just like taking the piss out of eachother. It's a really cool culture, and I'm happy I live here

Refusing to eat bacon in Denmark would be like refusing to drink beer in Germany, eat cheese in France, or eat far too much in the USA - it's the very heart of the national identity, and if you are not going to participate, you should live elsewhere.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

Denmark has a state religion (Christianity). We have freedom of religion as a law. But any other conflicting law trumps it. It's not an especially powerful law. This is not USA. It's more like a guiding principle, than a law you can use to get away with stuff. In Scandinavia we really don't care about religion anymore. It's mostly evaporated out of society... pretty much. Means nothing.

Danes are also pretty irreverant people. A Muslim who won't eat pork at lunch at work will be made fun of. This would not be considered racist or islamophobic. Danes do not care about political correctness. They just like taking the piss out of eachother. It's a really cool culture, and I'm happy I live here

Refusing to eat bacon in Denmark would be like refusing to drink beer in Germany, eat cheese in France, or eat far too much in the USA - it's the very heart of the national identity, and if you are not going to participate, you should live elsewhere.

All the Muslims I've worked with in Denmark have eaten pork, and drunk alcohol. I think they just get sick of being laughed at. Which they will be. There's no mystery why it was a Danish newspaper who published the Mohammed cartoons. Danes just want to have a good time. If you want to live here you need to be able to take a joke. Everybody is made fun of all the time. It's pretty brutal. It goes in every direction.

In Sweden it's a cultural taboo to offend others. In Denmark it's a cultural taboo to act offended. If you tell people here that a joke (or anything) offends you... that will make them laugh even more. After that the cruelty of the jokes will be relentless. They just don't give a fuck about people's sensitive feelings. If you kindly ask Danes to respect your religious beliefs, you can bet your ass that they won't. So the cultural clash with the "no fun and super serious" Islamic culture is pretty predictable.

I'm so happy I moved here. I think it's the best country on Earth. It's a wonderful culture.

 

[ruby sparks]

Everybody is coerced into wearing clothes to help them fit into various tribes. It's completely normal.

Up to a point. The question is, when does it possibly cross a line?

What I think westerners who are for a burqha ban have an issue with is that other values than pure consumption culture is more important.

No, I don't think that's the only reason. We have to guard against that, I agree, against imposing our values on other cultures, without good reasons.

The whole point of the Muslim modesty rules is precisely that.

Do you think so? You don't think it involves institutional/cultural sexism and repression of women?

So all Muslims should all dress like poor people.

There are no restrictions of that sort, as far as I am aware.

I personally think Islam is nonsense. All of it. I think burqhas is dumb. The motivation is dumb. But I'm all for people figuring all this out on their own. I don't think there's that many adult Muslim women living in the west who are forced into wearing burqhas. Based on what I've read, it seems to be volontary. I remember talking to a girl who grew up in London in a very strict Muslim family. Where she had to wear a shawl. She wore it to and from school. Took it off when in school. What are the parents going to do about it?

If nothing else, the controversy is raising awareness of the issue. I'm sure there are two sides, and exceptions, and I'd guess there are many women wearing such things in Denmark and elsewhere who are glad that it's being cjhallenged.

I'm all for a ban on niqabs and burqas in school for children. Because children are shifty fuckers who can't be trusted. A teacher must be able to see their lying little faces. Or they won't be able to do their jobs.

I see. You're not being entirely serious then.

Turkey banned Islamic clothing for many years. How did that work out? It's a waste of energy IMHO

I'd happily agree it's not a good thing if the outcomes are not good. Perhaps in the long run.....

One can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs etc.

There are also partial analogies to things like banning FGM and foot-binding.

Is it really?

I think so, yes.

 

[Terrell]

I think they should be able to wear what they choose, so long as their faces are uncovered in public & on their I.D. I'm generally skeptical about government enforced dress codes, but I'm not willing to be fully opposed to all of them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Up to a point. The question is, when does it possibly cross a line?

When the choice no longer is the person who is getting dressed. We all need to have power over how we get dressed. It's a question of empowerment. It has to do with exploring your own body, and your own place in the world. Making your own mistakes.

No, I don't think that's the only reason. We have to guard against that, I agree, against imposing our values on other cultures, without good reasons.

I believe God is dead in the west. And it's dying in the rest of the world. The type of Christianity that took over the western world after 1850 (or so) is a total joke. Consumption is the new Jesus. We worship it. Being able to watch, buy, eat, wear the latest or best bla bla bla is our meaning of life. Sex and friendships have become just other things we consume. After God died we secularised badly. It's left us lost and lacking in guidance. Which is why hippies, and New Age became a thing. Why postmodernism is a thing.

I think we often feel threatened when there comes someone rejecting this consumption culture. Anyhoo.. perhaps we just see this differently.

The whole point of the Muslim modesty rules is precisely that.

Do you think so? You don't think it involves institutional/cultural sexism and repression of women?

Yes, absolutely. But banning burqas is not going to fix that. The problem is these people's beliefs. Not their dress.

I'd guess there are many women wearing such things in Denmark and elsewhere who are glad that it's being cjhallenged.

I really don't think it is. There's loads of Muslim women in the west who aren't wearing burqas. There's loads of Muslim women in the Middle-East who aren't wearing burqas. Wearing a burqa or niqab isn't normal, even for Muslims, in Islamic countries. I don't think there's any threshold for them to discuss this openly in the Muslim community.

I'm all for a ban on niqabs and burqas in school for children. Because children are shifty fuckers who can't be trusted. A teacher must be able to see their lying little faces. Or they won't be able to do their jobs.

I see. You're not being entirely serious then.

I am against burqas for kids. Being able to read faces and body languge is an important skill to master.

Turkey banned Islamic clothing for many years. How did that work out? It's a waste of energy IMHO

I'd happily agree it's not a good thing if the outcomes are not good. Perhaps in the long run.....

One can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs etc.

It was banned for over fifty years. Didn't make a dent in the practice.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think they should be able to wear what they choose, so long as their faces are uncovered in public & on their I.D. I'm generally skeptical about government enforced dress codes, but I'm not willing to be fully opposed to all of them.

They can wear their religious bags all they want, just not in public.

 

[untermensche]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

Denmark has a state religion (Christianity). We have freedom of religion as a law. But any other conflicting law trumps it. It's not an especially powerful law. This is not USA. It's more like a guiding principle, than a law you can use to get away with stuff. In Scandinavia we really don't care about religion anymore. It's mostly evaporated out of society... pretty much. Means nothing.

Danes are also pretty irreverant people. A Muslim who won't eat pork at lunch at work will be made fun of. This would not be considered racist or islamophobic. Danes do not care about political correctness. They just like taking the piss out of eachother. It's a really cool culture, and I'm happy I live here

I think intolerance to religion in principle is good.

In action, in humans, it gets ugly and criminal.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

Denmark has a state religion (Christianity). We have freedom of religion as a law. But any other conflicting law trumps it. It's not an especially powerful law. This is not USA. It's more like a guiding principle, than a law you can use to get away with stuff. In Scandinavia we really don't care about religion anymore. It's mostly evaporated out of society... pretty much. Means nothing.

Danes are also pretty irreverant people. A Muslim who won't eat pork at lunch at work will be made fun of. This would not be considered racist or islamophobic. Danes do not care about political correctness. They just like taking the piss out of eachother. It's a really cool culture, and I'm happy I live here

I think intolerance to religion in principle is good.

In action, in humans, it gets ugly and criminal.

Danes are extremely tolerant. It's the most tolerant country I've ever lived in. Because of this they expect tolerance from eachother. They don't give special privileges to anyone.

I like it. It's a very honest and upfront society. If they think something is silly, they will likely say it. Muslims who live here quickly learn that demanding respect for their silly beliefs will get them the opposite result. So they stop. And usually quickly become extremely liberal Muslims.

Denmark is probably a very difficult country if you're easily offended. Conservative and serious Muslims don't have it easy here. Nobody takes them seriously.

 

[barbos]

That's your opinion.

Yes, I do. Denmark now has a fashion police. Incredibly embarrasing. Anybody who thinks that the west is for freedom, now knows better. Dumb dumb dumb.

Try harder

Ok. My conclusion is that it's nonsensical hogwash.

Your conclusion is nonsensical hogwash

I think intolerance to religion in principle is good.

In action, in humans, it gets ugly and criminal.

Danes are extremely tolerant. It's the most tolerant country I've ever lived in. Because of this they expect tolerance from eachother. They don't give special privileges to anyone.

I like it. It's a very honest and upfront society. If they think something is silly, they will likely say it. Muslims who live here quickly learn that demanding respect for their silly beliefs will get them the opposite result. So they stop. And usually quickly become extremely liberal Muslims.

Denmark is probably a very difficult country if you're easily offended. Conservative and serious Muslims don't have it easy here. Nobody takes them seriously.

Both tolerant and upfront? That does not quite compute.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Danes are extremely tolerant. It's the most tolerant country I've ever lived in. Because of this they expect tolerance from eachother. They don't give special privileges to anyone.

I like it. It's a very honest and upfront society. If they think something is silly, they will likely say it. Muslims who live here quickly learn that demanding respect for their silly beliefs will get them the opposite result. So they stop. And usually quickly become extremely liberal Muslims.

Denmark is probably a very difficult country if you're easily offended. Conservative and serious Muslims don't have it easy here. Nobody takes them seriously.

Both tolerant and upfront? That does not quite compute.

Why don't you apply some of that logic you're so great at

Tolerant means tolerating. It doesn't mean accepting or respecting. It also means they avoid telling eachother what to do. They give eachother a lot of freedom.

 

[Terrell]

I think they should be able to wear what they choose, so long as their faces are uncovered in public & on their I.D. I'm generally skeptical about government enforced dress codes, but I'm not willing to be fully opposed to all of them.

They can wear their religious bags all they want, just not in public.

Why? Unless they're covering their faces, why shouldn't they be able to dress how they want in public? There's a legitimate argument against allowing facial covering; why should that apply to the rest of the body in secular law?

 

[RavenSky]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion...

I agree on this part.

For example, insisting on wearing a burqa for passport photos, ID photos, driver's licenses, etc. because "religion" is not, in my opinion, sufficient justification to supercede the very point of photo identification.

I can also understand that for some, banning the burqa is intended to free women who are forced to wear the burqa. By making it the secular law of the land, the intent is to force the religious leaders and males in families to comply with the law and stop forcing women into burqas.

I don't believe this approach works. For those fanatics it is intended to target, their religion will always supercede secular law.

but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

and I tend to come down on the other side. These types of laws will not affect those it intends to target - religious fanatics. These laws only restrict women's freedoms under those religions even further.

 

[RavenSky]

My attitude. If Western culture isn't powerful enough to withstand Islamic conversian... good riddance. I think whatever is the most powerful idea should win. If Islam wins... great. If western culture wins... great. We can't lose. So we have nothing to fear

Well, then Nazis must have won judaism.

What? I cannot follow your logic. How does that apply?

You are, I suspect, talking in the abstract... in the marketplace of ideas and ideals, freedom will win.

In practice, it doesn't work out so well.

You assume the majority of women in burqas are wearing them because they want to. I suspect you are very very wrong. This type of fanatical Islam (like every fanatical religion) is oppressive, abusive and very very autocratic. There is no freedom, nor would they allow any freedom to others if they were to "win" as the dominant cultural force (by taking political power) in Denmark or anywhere else.

Your statement implies "might makes right", which I do not believe was your intent, but it does make Barbos' response accurate.

 

[RavenSky]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

Why?

Because, although it's not straightforward, I consider such things to be more repressive than freedom-enhancing... Whilst I accept that my position would involve restrictions and enforcements on others, I think it would be for the greater good, and more freedom-enhancing, basically, possibly on the basis that more people would be more free, even if some aren't.

Though I understand and agree with your point, I don't believe it will work. I think that a total ban on burqas will only mean that women's freedom of movement will become even more severely restricted. They will simply not be allowed out of the house at all.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think I am inclined to agree with the compromise for security circumstances only, but as I review that in my head, I am thinking about all the decades of data where there were no security incidents with persons wearing burqas as opposed to many security incidents with people wearing ski masks or not disguised at all. Besides all that, technology is rapidly advancing. Now we have 3d printed guns and next will be tiny explosives and gasses that you don't really need to hide in giant clothes in the first place. The only way to stop it will be to force everyone to strip before entering every building and expand TSA to be outside airports and at the entry of every building. Even then, the security strategies will be reactive, not pro-active, and not addressing the root causes of the issue. People are selfish and don't know how to think critically. What we really need instead of a burqa ban is an alien threat to unify the planet against a common enemy so we stop fighting each other. Maybe Donald Trump will make one up for us soon. That will at least get all the idiots distracted enough to stop ruining each others' lives.

 

[RavenSky]

There are also partial analogies to things like banning FGM and foot-binding.

I disagree in that FGM and foot-binding are permanently physically harmful. A burqa is just hot and ugly.

Further, bans against FGM have not worked either.

 The world's first known campaign against FGM took place in Egypt in the 1920s.[8] FGM prevalence in Egypt in 1995 was still at least as high as Somalia's 2013 world record (98%)...

Because of the clear harm to the victim, I do think laws should remain (or be strengthened) against FGM, foot-binding, etc; but I don't see how this argument can be applied to clothing.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Because, although it's not straightforward, I consider such things to be more repressive than freedom-enhancing... Whilst I accept that my position would involve restrictions and enforcements on others, I think it would be for the greater good, and more freedom-enhancing, basically, possibly on the basis that more people would be more free, even if some aren't.

Though I understand and agree with your point, I don't believe it will work. I think that a total ban on burqas will only mean that women's freedom of movement will become even more severely restricted. They will simply not be allowed out of the house at all.

This has been a tough issue for me. But Raven got me off the fence with this post. I agree. A ban will decrease a muslim woman's freedom even more. Although I do think that the burka should be banned when it comes to safety issues.