Burqa ban in Denmark and it's backfiring spectacularly

[DrZoidberg]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

 

[ruby sparks]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

Why?

 

[Juma]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

What do you expect the result of a ban woulld be?

 

[couch_sloth]

I can understand some restrictions to covering one's face, for security reasons. e.g. At airports, While driving a vehicle on a public road, In banks, etc.
But otherwise, this sort of dress probably shouldn't be restricted by governments.
I guess one of the justifications for such bans is that this religious dress is a sign of oppression (towards woman). I'm sure this is true in some cases, that some woman are pressured into dressing this way; by their husbands and family.
But it's also probably true that many Muslim women want to dress this way, and that they feel such bans would severely restrict their religious lifestyle. I'm not sure if some pro-ban people see this as a way to save Muslim women from there own beliefs?
Many (perhaps most?) of these woman want to dress this way, despite their religion's views on women. People often strongly believe-in ideologies which in someways oppress them. e.g. It has been my experience, that Christian women tend to be more devout than their male counterparts; despite the views on women expressed in the Bible.

If these governments feel this way, why do they allow children to be indoctrinated into these religious beliefs?

I think, in a free society, governments should only do so much to protect people from the ideologies of their family and culture. In the end, people have to take the responsibility to choose for themselves and not depend on highly restrictive laws of the state.

 

[Elixir]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

What do you expect the result of a ban woulld be?

Make Denmark Great white Again?

 

[The AntiChris]

I guess one of the justifications for such bans is that this religious dress is a sign of oppression (towards woman).

This is probably the the argument I hear most frequently.

It seems some (many?) people clearly think that we have to legally restrict a woman's choice of what to wear in order to free them from oppression! Madness.

 

[funinspace]

Though I understand the desire, I think any legal 'fix' will be worse than the disease.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I can understand some restrictions to covering one's face, for security reasons. e.g. At airports, While driving a vehicle on a public road, In banks, etc.
But otherwise, this sort of dress probably shouldn't be restricted by governments.
I guess one of the justifications for such bans is that this religious dress is a sign of oppression (towards woman). I'm sure this is true in some cases, that some woman are pressured into dressing this way; by their husbands and family.
But it's also probably true that many Muslim women want to dress this way, and that they feel such bans would severely restrict their religious lifestyle. I'm not sure if some pro-ban people see this as a way to save Muslim women from there own beliefs?
Many (perhaps most?) of these woman want to dress this way, despite their religion's views on women. People often strongly believe-in ideologies which in someways oppress them. e.g. It has been my experience, that Christian women tend to be more devout than their male counterparts; despite the views on women expressed in the Bible.

If these governments feel this way, why do they allow children to be indoctrinated into these religious beliefs?

I think, in a free society, governments should only do so much to protect people from the ideologies of their family and culture. In the end, people have to take the responsibility to choose for themselves and not depend on highly restrictive laws of the state.

They have because of this, also banned fake beards, halloween costumes, ski masks and anything else you might hide your face with. Not sure what they do with welders. It's so dumb. Somebody just didn't think this through.

What makes this all the more bizarre, is that Denmark is an incredibly liberal country. Prostitution is legal, drugs are in practice legalised, clubs and bars are competely deregulated, alcohol is completely deregulated and you can walk naked down any public road. There's very little that's forbidden here. Except this one thing. It's so out of character for liberal Denmark

 

[DrZoidberg]

I guess one of the justifications for such bans is that this religious dress is a sign of oppression (towards woman).

This is probably the the argument I hear most frequently.

It seems some (many?) people clearly think that we have to legally restrict a woman's choice of what to wear in order to free them from oppression! Madness.

Yeah. We need to force them to be free. How could that possibly fail?

 

[J842P]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

I think the best argument against allowing so much immigration from Islamic societies into Europe is how dreadfully bad Europeans are at handling it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

I think the best argument against allowing so much immigration from Islamic societies into Europe is how dreadfully bad Europeans are at handling it.

My attitude. If Western culture isn't powerful enough to withstand Islamic conversian... good riddance. I think whatever is the most powerful idea should win. If Islam wins... great. If western culture wins... great. We can't lose. So we have nothing to fear

 

[barbos]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

How is that backfiring, let alone spectacular? And he says it has nothing to do with religion? great, ordinary Danes can get fined for wearing burkas. All we need is thousands and thousands people getting fined. And that would be what I call backfiring.

 

[barbos]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

I think the best argument against allowing so much immigration from Islamic societies into Europe is how dreadfully bad Europeans are at handling it.

My attitude. If Western culture isn't powerful enough to withstand Islamic conversian... good riddance. I think whatever is the most powerful idea should win. If Islam wins... great. If western culture wins... great. We can't lose. So we have nothing to fear

Well, then Nazis must have won judaism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Last week wearing a Burqa has become illegal in Denmark. For mysterious reasons. Could it possible be racism?

Anyhoo... An Algerian businessman has gone out and said that he'll pay for all the burqa fines. Which he has done. So that didn't go so well.

http://cphpost.dk/news/wealthy-french-algerian-businessman-to-pay-all-danish-burqa-fines.html

Is he doing it because he's a Muslim? Nope. He does it because he's for freedom of expression.

I also find the idea of a fashion police for freedom rediculous. Well done Rashid.

The next play by the Danish politicians is to threaten to raise the punishment for wearing a burqa to two years in jail. Presumably because freedom, somehow.

How is that backfiring, let alone spectacular? And he says it has nothing to do with religion? great, ordinary Danes can get fined for wearing burkas. All we need is thousands and thousands people getting fined. And that would be what I call backfiring.

It's backfiring because it's:

1) not stopping Muslim women for dressing whoever they want
2) it makes the Danish government (and people) look like idiots.

- - - Updated - - -

My attitude. If Western culture isn't powerful enough to withstand Islamic conversian... good riddance. I think whatever is the most powerful idea should win. If Islam wins... great. If western culture wins... great. We can't lose. So we have nothing to fear

Well, then Nazis must have won judaism.

What? I cannot follow your logic. How does that apply?

 

[untermensche]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

 

[DrZoidberg]

It is clearly a freedom of religion issue.

Are people free in the West to practice their religion or not?

Denmark has a state religion (Christianity). We have freedom of religion as a law. But any other conflicting law trumps it. It's not an especially powerful law. This is not USA. It's more like a guiding principle, than a law you can use to get away with stuff. In Scandinavia we really don't care about religion anymore. It's mostly evaporated out of society... pretty much. Means nothing.

Danes are also pretty irreverant people. A Muslim who won't eat pork at lunch at work will be made fun of. This would not be considered racist or islamophobic. Danes do not care about political correctness. They just like taking the piss out of eachother. It's a really cool culture, and I'm happy I live here

 

[barbos]

It's backfiring because it's:

1) not stopping Muslim women for dressing whoever they want

Give them some more time.

2) it makes the Danish government (and people) look like idiots.

That's your opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

My attitude. If Western culture isn't powerful enough to withstand Islamic conversian... good riddance. I think whatever is the most powerful idea should win. If Islam wins... great. If western culture wins... great. We can't lose. So we have nothing to fear

Well, then Nazis must have won judaism.

What? I cannot follow your logic. How does that apply?

Try harder

 

[ruby sparks]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

Why?

Because, although it's not straightforward, I consider such things to be more repressive than freedom-enhancing. There's no doubt an argument to the contrary, but I don't think I've heard one I buy into. Whilst I accept that my position would involve restrictions and enforcements on others, I think it would be for the greater good, and more freedom-enhancing, basically, possibly on the basis that more people would be more free, even if some aren't.

The one part of your post I'm not sure I would agree with is your use of the word 'fashion'. That tends to imply free (or freer) choice than I believe generally pertains in this case. It is my understanding that many woman are coerced or pressured into wearing burqas and niqabs, and that is where my concern would be, if it's true. I'm not suggesting that many other items of clothing are not worn because of some sort of pressure too, but I draw a line somewhere in this case.

 

[Elixir]

There's no doubt this issue is nuanced, and I find it hard to settle on an opinion, but in the end I tend to come down on the side of supporting (and by extension enforcing) bans on burqas and niqabs.

Why?

Because, although it's not straightforward, I consider such things to be more repressive than freedom-enhancing. There's no doubt an argument to the contrary, but I don't think I've heard one I buy into. Whilst I accept that my position would involve restrictions and enforcements on others, I think it would be for the greater good, and more freedom-enhancing, basically.

I'd agree with that - in isolation for this case. But in principle it's dangerous, as it relies on the subjective judgment of some fallible human to determine whether the cause of freedom-enhancement is furthered or retarded by XYZ restriction of freedom. Without any objective criteria by which to make that determination, the safe thing for freedoms (IMHO of course) is to not impose stuff like wardrobe restrictions.