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But It's History!

T.G.G. Moogly

Traditional Atheist
Joined
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egalitarian
I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?
 
I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?

Take them down but put them in a local museum.
 
I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?

Take them down but put them in a local museum.

^That.

Destroying history is barbaric. But continuing to publicly celebrate barbarity in the name of preserving history is also barbaric. Controversial historical relics belong in museums, where they can be displayed amongst other historical context, and understood for what they are.

Public statuary is not teaching people about history; It is making a statement that this is what people should respect and be proud of.
 
I rather like this solution...

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First - most of them have little real historical value, having been put up in two major waves. The first, roughly around 1900, were the same time as the worst period of race relations in general, and the onset of racial terrorism and oppressive laws. The second, in response to the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, basically an angry response to the push for equality. In other words, they aren't monuments to history, but monuments to oppression. This is why many of them are sitting outside courthouses and government seats - much like many school that were supposedly integrated had their names changed to Confederate leaders in the 1960s.

Second, many of these statues were mass-produced, and rather cheaply at that, so they have little real artistic value.

Third, as we've seen in Charlottesville, they serve as modern-day rallying points for white nationalists, Nazi fetishists, Klansmen, and other such terrorists. In other words, they're public nuisances.

Fourth, most of these monuments, when they reference history at all, actually reference the "Lost Cause", a historical fiction of the poor downtrodden South that simply wanted to have their own rights but were ground by the expansionist North - rather than the violently expansionist slavers of the South willingly committing treason in in order to expand slaveholding lands throughout the Americas, something they had attempted previously in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Kansas.

Are there exceptions to all of the above three? Of course. But by and large, nothing would be lost if these monuments were removed and melted down, to be replaced with more fitting figures of veneration from the South if possible.
 
When you're a total nothing living in a capitalist shit hole it is great to imagine yourself a peasant in a slave society.

Oh how grand it was and easy to find good paying work when slavery was legal and supported by the government.
 
I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?

Sure. In addition to everything you wrote... They are also not history because they are re-creating a false narrative: the Lost Cause narrative. Most of these statues have such false propaganda on them as plaques or were christened/unveiled with such false narratives.

Recommend to read this post:
https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...onfederacy&p=448507&highlight=lost#post448507

and the thread.
 
First - most of them have little real historical value, having been put up in two major waves. The first, roughly around 1900, were the same time as the worst period of race relations in general, and the onset of racial terrorism and oppressive laws. The second, in response to the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, basically an angry response to the push for equality. In other words, they aren't monuments to history, but monuments to oppression. This is why many of them are sitting outside courthouses and government seats - much like many school that were supposedly integrated had their names changed to Confederate leaders in the 1960s.

Second, many of these statues were mass-produced, and rather cheaply at that, so they have little real artistic value.

Third, as we've seen in Charlottesville, they serve as modern-day rallying points for white nationalists, Nazi fetishists, Klansmen, and other such terrorists. In other words, they're public nuisances.

Fourth, most of these monuments, when they reference history at all, actually reference the "Lost Cause", a historical fiction of the poor downtrodden South that simply wanted to have their own rights but were ground by the expansionist North - rather than the violently expansionist slavers of the South willingly committing treason in in order to expand slaveholding lands throughout the Americas, something they had attempted previously in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Kansas.

Are there exceptions to all of the above three? Of course. But by and large, nothing would be lost if these monuments were removed and melted down, to be replaced with more fitting figures of veneration from the South if possible.

Perhaps they could replace them with statues of the man who ensured that large numbers of infrastructure jobs would be available in the South for years after the end of the war, Gen. W. T. Sherman?

I mean, everybody loves a winner, right?
 
First - most of them have little real historical value, having been put up in two major waves. The first, roughly around 1900, were the same time as the worst period of race relations in general, and the onset of racial terrorism and oppressive laws. The second, in response to the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, basically an angry response to the push for equality. In other words, they aren't monuments to history, but monuments to oppression. This is why many of them are sitting outside courthouses and government seats - much like many school that were supposedly integrated had their names changed to Confederate leaders in the 1960s.

Second, many of these statues were mass-produced, and rather cheaply at that, so they have little real artistic value.

Third, as we've seen in Charlottesville, they serve as modern-day rallying points for white nationalists, Nazi fetishists, Klansmen, and other such terrorists. In other words, they're public nuisances.

Fourth, most of these monuments, when they reference history at all, actually reference the "Lost Cause", a historical fiction of the poor downtrodden South that simply wanted to have their own rights but were ground by the expansionist North - rather than the violently expansionist slavers of the South willingly committing treason in in order to expand slaveholding lands throughout the Americas, something they had attempted previously in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Kansas.

Are there exceptions to all of the above three? Of course. But by and large, nothing would be lost if these monuments were removed and melted down, to be replaced with more fitting figures of veneration from the South if possible.

^^^ Mumbles covered it for me so I'll just second everything above ;)
 
I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?

And history will show that in 2018 we started not tolerating monuments to slavery supporting confederates. Maybe we should start a movement to build monuments celebrating Sherman's March to the Sea that helped bring the war to a close and end slavery.

William Tecumseh Sherman day. November 15, the day Sherman set off on his campaign across Georgia.

They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree!
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree!
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree!
As they march along!


https://www.google.com/search?q=wil...AgFEAE&biw=1440&bih=776#imgrc=O7yuGs3DShETdM:

Southern culture? I have your Southern culture right here!
 
Not many people put up statues of traitors.

If somebody is a US citizen these people are traitors.
 
But it's history!

I've encountered this response personally on two occasions when discussing the removal of confederate monuments. My response has been to acknowledge that these monuments have some historical value but that they are celebrating the institution of slavery and racism, and that their intent in public places is to glorify those people who fought to preserve slavery as an institution. So it's up to the present population to decide what's to be done with them if anything.

But I'm wondering if I can do better. Any suggestions?

Nobody ever really gave a crap about these statues before people wanted to tear them down. Most people who lived near them were generally unaware they existed, or what they were about. 'They are History" is largely irrelevant, I think. What statues there are in a community should be determined by the relevant democratic process, not appeals to history.
 
There's the old, and true, adage that "those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it".

This is why we should have all that memorabilia kept around, but in museums as a reminder. (if you get a chance, visit the new Museum of African American Culture in DC to see why.)
There is another problem, though: history is written by the winners, and if the south has won, those people would be the heroes instead of the scum they truly were.

Yes...it is history...but it's a shameful and disgraceful part of it, and doesn't need to be glorified, but it must be remembered. I think history and civics should be mandatory for all students at all ages. And I'm an engineer and scientist.
 
WWII was also history. I don't see a lot of Hitler statues around.

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That wouldn't make sense in America. Are their statues of Hitler in Germany?

I don't think anywhere - not to the degree that the south has confederate statues.

More to the point, a lack of Hitler statues is in no way indicative of a loss in the historical significance of WWII, Nazi Germany, or Hitler himself.

aa
 
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