California bans plastic bags

[bleubird]

Let me make it real simple.I have four canvas bags that I put in my laundry,I have had them for 7 or 8 years.They are still fine.
And I am going to get some hemp bags soon.
And,again,where can I go to become an expert on everything?

 

[barbos]

I reuse these plastic bags for trash.
And yeah, using electric dryer for drying shopping bags is kinda stupid, they can dry natural way just fine.
I wonder if something can be done about plastic bottles.
If people were sorting and cutting them into pieces themselves for storing and then recycling later that would greatly reduced amount of trash. I mean with very little work amount of trash can be halved. And it is not just weight, it is volume too.
Most of the trash has very low volume and the trash truck has to stop for every load.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you all forgetting to take these other issues into account regarding reusable bags?

-People will have to now buy plastic bags to use for trash liners.

Oh the humanity!

Srsly, what's the issue with people buying trash bags as opposed to collecting them for free from doing their shopping? I've been buying medium sized trash bags since the levy was introduced here (12.years ago) and had to buy larger and smaller bags I didn't get with regular shopping anyway. What the fuck is the "issue" with people having to buy medium sized trash bags?

The point is when you remove a shopping bag and then turn around and buy a trash bag in place of it you're actually worse off.

All our routine trash goes in old grocery bags. There are only two trash cans in the house with other bags in them--and one of those is the shredder.

- - - Updated - - -

And you don't fill the machine when you do the laundry?

There is always a little more room.

And the energy used in drying is far more tied to how much drying is needed than per load.

Problem solved by hanging the bags to dry.

You don't get to handwave away the cleaning resources.

I'm thinking of hand gestures, but not handwaving with your response.

If there's more room you can put something else in it. You don't get to ignore the resource cost of cleaning it. I do agree that hanging it avoids any dryer energy.

 

[laughing dog]

I've been using a reusable cloth bag for groceries for 10 years. And it is still going strong. From my personal experience, I find LP's claim counter-intuitive, so I would like some data on it.

As for poop bags, as Rhea said there are plenty of bags used to sell food that can be used. I have two Old English Sheepdogs (70 and 100 lbs) and I use leftover produce and bread bags, plus the bags our newspaper is delivered in, and the small dog poop bags you can buy.

 

[Godless Raven]

Those weren't all 3rd world countries. The fact that you can't tell the difference should probably tell you something.

Also not 3rd world countries...

 

[Rhea]

The point is when you remove a shopping bag and then turn around and buy a trash bag in place of it you're actually worse off.

Why would that be? Why would it violate the well known manufacturing rule that when you package in bulk you use less packaging material. Buying on 30-gal or 55-gal bag and filling it from all wastebaskets is the same as packaging in bulk. Lots of trash into a single bag. Lots less bag per trash. (also allows the purchase of biodegradable bags)

 

[Nice Squirrel]

According to articles I read only 3% of plastic bags are recycled. I throw mine out.
And use the paper bags for holding my recyclables.

 

[doubtingt]

About the only thing that would contaminate a bag and require it to be washed would be raw meats that are not fully sealed (e.g., just wrapped in plastic), such that the juices get outside the package. But the ban does not apply to these. Raw fruits and veggies, and meats can still be put into plastic bags.

When you go to the meat counter you find a lot of packages of meat that are plastic-wrapped and supposedly leakproof. People normally do not double-bag these. Occasionally, though, they leak anyway.

But plastic bags can still be used to put these meats in. The ban allows an exception for them.

It is true that some people reuse the bags for other things and this saves energy over buying bags for those other purposes (such as for kitty litter in my case), even if the bags one buys are recycled, the recycling uses more energy than using an existing grocery bag. However, the energy saved during the act of using an old grocery bag is only making up for the energy used to make the bag before you got it from the grocery store. Thus, the when you combine the acts of transporting your groceries home and uses like trashbag, the total energy used is about the same for groceries transported in a canvas sack with new plastic bags bought for trash, versus groceries transported in a "new" plastic bag then the bag reused for trash. IF every bag that was used for transporting groceries was actually given a secondary use for which a new plastic bag would need to be bought, then banning the bags would not save any energy. However, that is not at all the case and many grocery bags are thrown away or stuffed in a drawer for decades and people use new plastic bags anyway rather than reusing. For every such non-reused grocery bag energy is saved by reducing the bags people get from the grocery store in the first place.

I disagree with the math here. If the bags are 100% repurposed then the cost of making them is approximately zero because something else will have to be used instead. The only actual savings is to the extent they are not reused.

Well then, you don't disagree with what I said. I said "If every bag ... was given a secondary use", then banning the bags would not save energy. But I also said, that most bags are not reused, and every bag that is not reused contributes to energy savings that will result from a ban.

 

[AdamWho]

You understand that no bags have actually been banned?

You can still get bags if you want them. You just don't get them for free.

Do you imagine that this tiny fee is going to cleaning up plastic bags? No, it is just another item to sell.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to articles I read only 3% of plastic bags are recycled. I throw mine out.
And use the paper bags for holding my recyclables.

That 3% stat is meaningless--it's the % turned in to recyclers. It doesn't count the number used for other purposes such as trash bags.

 

[Emily Lake]

Either purchase compostable dog waste bags, like these, or carry a small (depending on your dog breed) bucket with a secure lid and a shovel, then add it to your own backyard compost.

I'm surprised you guys don't know about these. I've been using compostable bags along with biodegradeable kitty litter for nearly a decade.

And those bags have to be made. To the reusable grocery bag side of the tally you have to add the resource cost of the replacements people purchase.

Certainly, but I'm not particularly concerned about the resource cost to create the bags. I'm more concerned about the fact that standard grocery store bags don't biodegrade, and end up sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in an enormous floating trash-continent that kills fish, birds, and necessary plankton and algae. Unless you have reason to believe that the compostable bags are significantly more expensive and environmentally damaging to produce, then I see it as a net benefit. If they're about the same footprint and cost to produce, but one biodegrades and the other does not, then that seems to be a clear step in the right direction, wouldn't you say?

 

[Emily Lake]

Don't they have biodegradable plastic? I remember getting a fancy brand of juice and it said the plastic was made from corn. If this has already been addressed, I apologize for not reading through four pages of posts.

Not so much with bags, at least not for standard grocery bags. The corn-based compostable bags tend to be very thin and tear easily. I know that the ones I use for kitty litter aren't very sturdy... but it's irrelevant as their purpose is only to contain the litter until it reaches a location for composting. I don't think they'd stand up to canned goods or sharp corners on boxes.

But if you invent it and patent it, I'm sure you'd make a killing!

 

[Nice Squirrel]

According to articles I read only 3% of plastic bags are recycled. I throw mine out.
And use the paper bags for holding my recyclables.

That 3% stat is meaningless--it's the % turned in to recyclers. It doesn't count the number used for other purposes such as trash bags.

..which would be a "reuse" and not recycled.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Don't they have biodegradable plastic? I remember getting a fancy brand of juice and it said the plastic was made from corn. If this has already been addressed, I apologize for not reading through four pages of posts.

Not so much with bags, at least not for standard grocery bags. The corn-based compostable bags tend to be very thin and tear easily. I know that the ones I use for kitty litter aren't very sturdy... but it's irrelevant as their purpose is only to contain the litter until it reaches a location for composting. I don't think they'd stand up to canned goods or sharp corners on boxes.

But if you invent it and patent it, I'm sure you'd make a killing!

Sun Chips came out with a compostable bag. After a year in my compost pile, it hadn't degraded one bit.

 

[Emily Lake]

I wonder if something can be done about plastic bottles.

Yes... Just use your own water bottle and refill it! Don't buy plastic bottles if you can avoid it, and recycle those that you do buy.

My employer went through 7 years ago and put in bottle fillers in our water fountains throughout our buildings. They're large enough to fit a very big bottle under, and the water is distilled and comes out quickly enough that you're not waiting for ages as you would with a standard bubbler. They simultaneously issued every employee a nice corporate-logo-emblazoned BPA-free water bottle... and significantly increased the price of bottled water in our cafeterias. They did something similar with coffee; they issued all of us very nice aluminum travel mugs, and then started charging an extra $1 if you use the paper cups in the cafeteria. The combination of stick and carrot has worked like a charm. Very few people are seen with paper coffee cups or purchased bottled water... and those people often get slightly skewed looks from their coworkers. The shift in culture has been profound.

 

[Emily Lake]

Not so much with bags, at least not for standard grocery bags. The corn-based compostable bags tend to be very thin and tear easily. I know that the ones I use for kitty litter aren't very sturdy... but it's irrelevant as their purpose is only to contain the litter until it reaches a location for composting. I don't think they'd stand up to canned goods or sharp corners on boxes.

But if you invent it and patent it, I'm sure you'd make a killing!

Sun Chips came out with a compostable bag. After a year in my compost pile, it hadn't degraded one bit.

Either not a very good compostable bag... or not a very honest depiction. Either way, that's sad.

 

[lpetrich]

I will now attempt to estimate the resources needed for various kinds of bags. I'll use what I have the biggest clue about, materials, and ignore the details of manufacturing processes.

The Simple Plastic Bag – More than Meets the Eye: Plastic Bag Thickness - What Hell is a Mil? states that common plastic bags have thicknesses between 0.5 and 2 mils -- 1 mil = 1/1000 inch = 25.4 microns. So that's about 12.5 to 50 microns.

Paper thickness varies widely (Paper Thickness Chart | Caliper Tables | Case Paper, Kraft Paper Weights and Thickness Comparison Chart). Kraft paper, the kind often used for paper bags, is around 3 to 9 mils, or 75 to 225 microns.

It's hard to find good numbers on cloth, so I'll use a rough eyeball estimate: 0.5 to 1 mm, or 500 to 1000 microns.

I'll use these more-or-less average values:

• Plastic: 20 microns
• Paper: 100 microns
• Cloth: 1000 microns

Thus, paper takes about 5 times the material as plastic, and cloth 50 times.

I've found some numbers on prices, which may be a good estimate of the difficulty of manufacturing the various sorts of bags. Grocery Bags | Reusable Grocery Bags | Brown Paper Bags. I'm using the lowest price since it's likely a result of buying in bulk, thus giving an economy of scale.

• White T-Shirt Plastic Bags: $0.03
• Kraft Grocery Bags: $0.01
• Reusable Handle Bags: $0.56

Thus, a reusable bag costs as much as 20 plastic bags or 60 paper bags.

So one beats disposable bags if one uses a reusable bag for more than 50 - 60 shopping days.

 

[bleubird]

http://www.plasticsportal.net/wa/pl...ntent/products/biodegradable_plastics/ecoflex
Bottled water is perhaps the most insidious corporate scam ever!Oh,we know you are to busy get water from the tap so we will rape you,

 

[arkirk]

And those bags have to be made. To the reusable grocery bag side of the tally you have to add the resource cost of the replacements people purchase.

Certainly, but I'm not particularly concerned about the resource cost to create the bags. I'm more concerned about the fact that standard grocery store bags don't biodegrade, and end up sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in an enormous floating trash-continent that kills fish, birds, and necessary plankton and algae. Unless you have reason to believe that the compostable bags are significantly more expensive and environmentally damaging to produce, then I see it as a net benefit. If they're about the same footprint and cost to produce, but one biodegrades and the other does not, then that seems to be a clear step in the right direction, wouldn't you say?

Loren: You can't have it both ways. Pay for your friggin bags! Every single use item we produce is less economical than a similar multi use item of the same type. Your thinking would give us an ocean full of plastic bags and force us to pump more oil to make these bags. We have had a plastic bag ban in L.A. for some time. It takes awhile to get into the habit of taking your shopping bag to the store with you but you eventually get it right. Don't be a moss back and resist needed change.

 

[arkirk]

I will now attempt to estimate the resources needed for various kinds of bags. I'll use what I have the biggest clue about, materials, and ignore the details of manufacturing processes.

The Simple Plastic Bag – More than Meets the Eye: Plastic Bag Thickness - What Hell is a Mil? states that common plastic bags have thicknesses between 0.5 and 2 mils -- 1 mil = 1/1000 inch = 25.4 microns. So that's about 12.5 to 50 microns.

Paper thickness varies widely (Paper Thickness Chart | Caliper Tables | Case Paper, Kraft Paper Weights and Thickness Comparison Chart). Kraft paper, the kind often used for paper bags, is around 3 to 9 mils, or 75 to 225 microns.

It's hard to find good numbers on cloth, so I'll use a rough eyeball estimate: 0.5 to 1 mm, or 500 to 1000 microns.

I'll use these more-or-less average values:

• Plastic: 20 microns
• Paper: 100 microns
• Cloth: 1000 microns

Thus, paper takes about 5 times the material as plastic, and cloth 50 times.

I've found some numbers on prices, which may be a good estimate of the difficulty of manufacturing the various sorts of bags. Grocery Bags | Reusable Grocery Bags | Brown Paper Bags. I'm using the lowest price since it's likely a result of buying in bulk, thus giving an economy of scale.

• White T-Shirt Plastic Bags: $0.03
• Kraft Grocery Bags: $0.01
• Reusable Handle Bags: $0.56

Thus, a reusable bag costs as much as 20 plastic bags or 60 paper bags.

So one beats disposable bags if one uses a reusable bag for more than 50 - 60 shopping days.

In reality, a good cloth bag can be used HUNDREDS OF TIMES. I have already done so. I want bottled water put in the defendant's dock next. This stuff is outrageous. I saw on a show how much oil is needed to make one of those clear plastic 16 oz. bottles. It is one third of the capacity of the bottle. Why would anybody want to pay the oil company every time they took a drink of water?