California Doing California Things

[Loren Pechtel]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

Do you not buy raw meat? Does a package never leak? It's typically packed in some pretty thin plastic film--and more than once I've found holes that happened because a bagger didn't load things perfectly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another one of these "it's too small a problem to be worth solving" kind of things, right? Even if solving a small problem can make some things better. Too bad there's no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the rights of people to plastic bags.

It’s too small a problem that an arbitrary, ill thought out ban will achieve nothing.

Yeah, such a 'small' problem that over 500 cities and towns across 28 states have implemented local plastic bag bans—12 of them in Texas alone, until their own state government stepped in and reversed the decisions.

I believe you're suggesting that the bans aren't the most comprehensive solution and I agree. I believe significant improvements in waste management systems, especially through investments by wealthier nations in global infrastructure, would be more impactful than relying solely on local plastic bag bans. That said, plastic bag bans still play a role in reducing plastic pollution, particularly at the local level where municipalities find them necessary.

The question is whether this is sound ecology or virtue signaling.

 

[Elixir]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

Do you not buy raw meat? Does a package never leak? It's typically packed in some pretty thin plastic film--and more than once I've found holes that happened because a bagger didn't load things perfectly.

Approximately 47% of those banned bags leak like mo fos.

 

[ZiprHead]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

My wife has several bags she's gotten from WWF for donations. They seem to be made of the same plastic material that tarpaulins are made of. She's been using them for years and has never had to throw one out.

For paint rollers, kitchen plastic wrap works great for that.

 

[ZiprHead]

Another one of these "it's too small a problem to be worth solving" kind of things, right? Even if solving a small problem can make some things better. Too bad there's no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the rights of people to plastic bags.

It’s too small a problem that an arbitrary, ill thought out ban will achieve nothing.

Yeah, such a 'small' problem that over 500 cities and towns across 28 states have implemented local plastic bag bans—12 of them in Texas alone, until their own state government stepped in and reversed the decisions.

I believe you're suggesting that the bans aren't the most comprehensive solution and I agree. I believe significant improvements in waste management systems, especially through investments by wealthier nations in global infrastructure, would be more impactful than relying solely on local plastic bag bans. That said, plastic bag bans still play a role in reducing plastic pollution, particularly at the local level where municipalities find them necessary.

The question is whether this is sound ecology or virtue signaling.

Bottles, bags, and fishing gear make up the bulk of the plastics in the plastic islands in the oceans. Considering California is a coastal state, this seems far from virtue signalling to me.

 

[ZiprHead]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

Do you not buy raw meat? Does a package never leak? It's typically packed in some pretty thin plastic film--and more than once I've found holes that happened because a bagger didn't load things perfectly.

Approximately 47% of those banned bags leak like mo fos.

And they're great fun when they split open and everything falls out.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Another one of these "it's too small a problem to be worth solving" kind of things, right? Even if solving a small problem can make some things better. Too bad there's no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the rights of people to plastic bags.

It’s too small a problem that an arbitrary, ill thought out ban will achieve nothing.

Yeah, such a 'small' problem that over 500 cities and towns across 28 states have implemented local plastic bag bans—12 of them in Texas alone, until their own state government stepped in and reversed the decisions.

I believe you're suggesting that the bans aren't the most comprehensive solution and I agree. I believe significant improvements in waste management systems, especially through investments by wealthier nations in global infrastructure, would be more impactful than relying solely on local plastic bag bans. That said, plastic bag bans still play a role in reducing plastic pollution, particularly at the local level where municipalities find them necessary.

The question is whether this is sound ecology or virtue signaling.

If used long enough, sound ecology and much more convenient. People can buy trash can liners. I'm sick of trying to do something better getting labeled "virtue signalling."

 

[scombrid]

I have a large burlap sack from a Pierced Brewing, several tarpaulin type bags from Bridge Street Market when I was in Grand Rapids for a conference last year, various canvas bags I've collected over the years, an Ulta bag, a couple of NAVC bags from annual meetings, a couple of AFS bags from those conferences; we have no use for plastic shopping bags. They aren't even reliable for picking up dog shit because they tear so easily.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

Do you not buy raw meat? Does a package never leak? It's typically packed in some pretty thin plastic film--and more than once I've found holes that happened because a bagger didn't load things perfectly.

You sound like the black and white person in an informercial.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Everything is virtue signalling for MAGA. Signaling a left turn, virtue signalling! Leaving a tip, virtue signaling! Holding a door open, virtue signaling!! Using public transportation, virtue signaling!!!!

While there is definitely a problem with the right calling things virtue signaling there also is a problem with virtue signaling--by both sides. It's much easier to do virtue signals than actually do good.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is a deficit because they extrapolated revenue growth (which was inflated due to the end of the pandemic) too far out without adjusting projected revenue growth to return back to earth as the reopening bump was clearly going to be temporary. Gov. Newsom was not the first, nor the last politician to use over-rosy revenue projections for budgeting. The GOP famously made a massive tax cut ($1.3ish billion I think) for a $5.6 trillion 10 year federal surplus that never even happened.

It's pretty hard for a politician in Newsom's position to say no. People see the rosy projections and demand either spending increases or tax cuts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was shocked. 75% of Navada is owned by the US.
I found this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/US_federal_land.agencies.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_land#United_States

Yeah. We have some huge military areas and in general there's a lot of land out there that is basically useless due to a lack of water. No reason for the feds not to own it. And some of that federal land serves a dual purpose as a wildlife refuge, also. The Air Force has a huge area out there for practice--nobody's allowed in because stuff might fall on their head (and the UXO threat--nobody cleans up the duds) but the odds of that actually happening are quite low. The result is the wildlife likes it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The alternatives to the plastic bags aren't exactly stellar examples of environmentalism. IIRC, paper bags are more energy intensive to make than the single use plastic bags, and require trees. The washable ones get nasty fast, and have to be washed pretty frequently. IIRC, the end result of that is they also require more energy overall than plastic.

I’ve been using canvas bags for ten years or more. They don’t get nasty. What are you doing, throwing raw meat in there? I get a few onion skins to shake out from time to time and I do wash them every couple months just on ceremony.
What plastic bags I might accumulate I use to wrap paint brushes and rollers if I need to use them the next day.

Do you not buy raw meat? Does a package never leak? It's typically packed in some pretty thin plastic film--and more than once I've found holes that happened because a bagger didn't load things perfectly.

Approximately 47% of those banned bags leak like mo fos.

The point is they aren't reused. If they get contaminated they don't go on to contaminate anything else.

If you're going to use permanent bags have a separate one for meat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another one of these "it's too small a problem to be worth solving" kind of things, right? Even if solving a small problem can make some things better. Too bad there's no Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the rights of people to plastic bags.

It’s too small a problem that an arbitrary, ill thought out ban will achieve nothing.

Yeah, such a 'small' problem that over 500 cities and towns across 28 states have implemented local plastic bag bans—12 of them in Texas alone, until their own state government stepped in and reversed the decisions.

I believe you're suggesting that the bans aren't the most comprehensive solution and I agree. I believe significant improvements in waste management systems, especially through investments by wealthier nations in global infrastructure, would be more impactful than relying solely on local plastic bag bans. That said, plastic bag bans still play a role in reducing plastic pollution, particularly at the local level where municipalities find them necessary.

The question is whether this is sound ecology or virtue signaling.

Bottles, bags, and fishing gear make up the bulk of the plastics in the plastic islands in the oceans. Considering California is a coastal state, this seems far from virtue signalling to me.

There are two separate issues.

Bags as trash and bags as fossil fuel use.

The numbers seem to be pretty clear that permanent bags have a larger impact than disposable.

I have not seen anything remotely adequate in addressing bags as trash. If I'm out in the wilderness I generally pick up trash I encounter. And I do not recall ever finding a trash bag other than one wrapped around a used diaper. Plastic type trash is generally mylar balloons, plastic product bags (something that contained the food, not the bag you took it home in), container tops and doggie bags. In vehicle areas it also includes broken bits of things.

 

[Elixir]

If you're going to use permanent bags have a separate one for meat.

We get meat from a butcher shop that wraps the cuts on the spot. Some lightweight plastic tissue and then butcher paper. It doesn’t leak. We get fowl and occasional meat from Safeway, and it is suspect for leakage but only if it gets inverted. I have a very nice cardboard tote and several bags when I go into the store. The tote holds things reliably flat, so have not had a problem.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If you're going to use permanent bags have a separate one for meat.

We get meat from a butcher shop that wraps the cuts on the spot. Some lightweight plastic tissue and then butcher paper. It doesn’t leak. We get fowl and occasional meat from Safeway, and it is suspect for leakage but only if it gets inverted. I have a very nice cardboard tote and several bags when I go into the store. The tote holds things reliably flat, so have not had a problem.

That’s how my grocery is, butcher shop style, a little cardboard bin, plastic tissue and butcher’s paper. None of the meat is swimming in bloody water like the meat in a styrofoam tray and plastic wrap.
If I pack my own, I’ll cuddle any meat I might buy next to the orange juice. I don’t buy any frozen food. It’s probably as much as 45 minutes between store refrigeration and home.

I don’t care about virtue signaling or that what I do is so little as to not matter. Excuses. I’ll just do my part as best I can. Always have. I’ll make changes along the way.

I have a WWF bag from maybe 20 years ago. It’s canvas. And a Stephen Colbert canvas bag I picked up at Barnes & Nobles. They both do tool duty. One’s for coax and the other nonresidential electrical.

 

[Elixir]

Natural Grocers opened here a few years ago, and was giving their bags away. Thought it was pretty hokey at the time but lo and behold they’re big and well designed and they have held up perfectly. They’re made of plasticized canvas or something, with real nylon webbing handles. Walmart ones wear out real fast. But the cardboard tote box is The Thing, hands down. You can load it up with 30lbs of stuff and carry it easily, no struggles getting things to fit right in it and it’s stable in the car.

 

[bilby]

I was shocked. 75% of Navada is owned by the US.
I found this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/US_federal_land.agencies.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_land#United_States

Yeah. We have some huge military areas and in general there's a lot of land out there that is basically useless due to a lack of water. No reason for the feds not to own it. And some of that federal land serves a dual purpose as a wildlife refuge, also. The Air Force has a huge area out there for practice--nobody's allowed in because stuff might fall on their head (and the UXO threat--nobody cleans up the duds) but the odds of that actually happening are quite low. The result is the wildlife likes it.

Salisbury Plain in England serves a similar purpose. It has been used as a tank practice area and training ground since tanks were invented, is riddled with unexploded shells, and is strictly off limits to anyone not involved in military operations. As a result there are at least two species of newt for whom it is the last known habitat, and it is home to myriad other endangered plants and animals.

Apparently one of the newts likes to spawn in the pools formed in the ruts caused by tank tracks; As the tanks don't follow marked roads, these rarely get run over more than once, so they are pretty safe.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Everything is virtue signalling for MAGA. Signaling a left turn, virtue signalling! Leaving a tip, virtue signaling! Holding a door open, virtue signaling!! Using public transportation, virtue signaling!!!!

While there is definitely a problem with the right calling things virtue signaling there also is a problem with virtue signaling--by both sides.

Is there any actual problem with virtue signaling? We solved enough issues that we can worry about virtue signaling? I don't support virtue signaling, but as far as troubles in my life... people that virtue signal... really far down the list.

It's much easier to do virtue signals than actually do good.

It is as easy to commit an act of virtue signaling (and as useless) as it is to complain about it. On both sides.

 

[Elixir]

as far as troubles in my life... people that virtue signal... really far down the list.

How virtuous!