ontological_realist
Member
Do you think that there can be an object without any subject? And why?
I think so. If subjects were necessary for objects to exist then the objects that were precursors of subjects would never have existed and therefore subjects would not now exist.ontological_realist said:Do you think that there can be an object without any subject? And why?
I object: I is the subject object.By object, I mean a physical object like table, chair, sun or moon etc.
Traditionally Buddhist thoughts on this -
An observer without anything to observe is empty. A object that cannot be observed is functionally nonexistant. An instance of reality is thus composed of the interaction between observer and object - each requires the other to meaningfully exist. The universe is neither objective nor subjective, it is nondual. Getting though the layers of culture and jargon to understand the points behind yogacara and nondualism is a massive task, but there are insights there. If you really want to know, I'll go into it.
Where can an object that by definition cannot be observed exist except in your mind? How can subject and object be fully separated or exist independent of one another? I *promise* I'll dig back into this, but frankly, right now I'm doing some serious research and the nondual mind, while enlightened and all, isn't very helpful with that. This is probably the worst thing I could do, but here's a fairly comprehensible reference: The Myth of Mind - Independent Reality & t he Metaphysics of Nondual Epiontic Quantum Mindnature
No it isnt, not in any reasonable meaning of the word.When you speak of the rock, you have presumed the existence of an objective reality that exists outside of your mind, but you know it's inherently impossible to prove that.
Hmm - you still presume the existence of the objective universe - prove it. Prove that a rock exists - that the entire universe isn't your personal hallucination. If you start with the presumption that the rock doesn't need a subject, you've answered your own question. I don't care about convincing you - this is a thought exercise. These guys really didn't know if it was live or Memorex, and they didn't assume. If you want to see what they saw, you have to let go of that. I promise, it's a very interesting POV.