Split Can we call this insurrection? (Split from Race for 2024)

[laughing dog]

14.3 does not apply just to presidency. In fact, it is very unclear whether it applies to presidency at all.

My goodness, I thought you were better than grasping at non-existent straws.

 

[RVonse]

It's not just democrats who object to violent insurrection, to the point of booting violent insurrectioists off the ballot.
Tom

Except for this kind of violent insurrection:

Reminder: a group of left-wing insurrectionists armed with rifles occupied several city blocks in Seattle in 2020 for weeks and suffered zero consequences.

Insurrections are ok when leftists do them. That's why the likes of Huey Newton or Fred Hampton, self-described "revolutionaries" who wanted to overthrow the US government and impose a Maoist dictatorship are still revered on the left.

The above insurrectionists were very mean blocking streets, delaying motorists. The Jan 6 rioters were trying to stop the election of Biden. They were trying to stop the transfer of power in the US. Do you see the difference?

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above. The Jan 6 protesters were basically peaceful by comparison, they were not obviously attempting to aquire state (and also federal) lands by armed rebellion. And they were securing a political settlement which is usually done peacefully versus territorial expansion which is always violent.

Did the Jan 6 rioters ever build a fence around the white house and declare that territory off limits to everyone else? That seemed to be the goal of the people pictured above.......to take part of Seattle and "own" it as their own country, much like Putin is doing to Ukraine right now. Much like the Mexicans tried to do at the Alamo in Texas.... If you have actually taken over territory, it does not even matter what the "old" political system was because by definition its all been taken over anyway.

 

[RVonse]

Did they submit fake electoral votes for president? Did they try to block certification of legitimate electoral votes? Did they break into the legislature to those ends? I'm not sure insurrection works. But you can call them that and block them from holding office in whatever jurisdiction they were subverting if they were indeed trying to overthrow and take control of that government. That seems fair enough.

Now lets talk some more about butterymales or some other whatabout. Hey, there's a mayor in a town of 21,000 that's at least as bad as George Santos. Let's bring her into this.

When you actually acquire land by force like our fore fathers did during the Revolutionary War, the old political system (the king of Britain) no longer mattered. After the Revolutionary War, the last thing George Washington would have worried about would be blocking electoral votes in England. Everything was already over with.

 

[TomC]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

The Teaparty Insurrection against the USA, on January 6, 2021, was an attack on the whole country. All of us! Trump and his supporters were attempting to take a sledgehammer to basic Usonian institutions, like the EC, because the outcome of the popular election and the resulting EC appointment of Biden didn't suit them.

There's no realistic way to compare them as "insurrection". Attempting to do so is anti-USA and anti-democracy.
Tom

 

[RVonse]

14.3 does not apply just to presidency. In fact, it is very unclear whether it applies to presidency at all.

My goodness, I thought you were better than grasping at non-existent straws.

Except that Derec is right.

 

[RVonse]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

 

[TomC]

14.3 does not apply just to presidency. In fact, it is very unclear whether it applies to presidency at all.

My goodness, I thought you were better than grasping at non-existent straws.

Except that Derec is right.

@Derec is one of the misinformed people who thinks that POTUS and VP are elected positions. At least it seems that way.
They aren't. They are appointed by electors, who are quite specifically covered.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

RVonse: question for you: what do you think would have happened if the fake electors and Jan 6 folks had succeeded in stopping the EC from electing Biden?

 

[Harry Bosch]

14.3 does not apply just to presidency. In fact, it is very unclear whether it applies to presidency at all.

My goodness, I thought you were better than grasping at non-existent straws.

Except that Derec is right.

@Derec is one of the misinformed people who thinks that POTUS and VP are elected positions. At least it seems that way.
They aren't. They are appointed by electors, who are quite specifically covered.
Tom

As an aside, I actually agree with Derec and RVonse that the electoral college sucks! It’s confusing, inexact and easily manipulated. I’d love to get a better more fair election process. However, I favor changing the process BEFORE the election! Changing it after the fact is not fair! It’s hard to believe that so many on the right don’t seem to understand this.

 

[TomC]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

I don't know how to respond to this with anything but derision.
Genghis Khan did his thing and died so many centuries ago, I don't remember how long. Comparing that to the Seattle dumbassery is almost as ignorant as comparing the Seattle dumbassery to the Trump Insurrection.

I cannot understand how a modern person with basic education and internet access could make arguments like that.
Unless they just flat out hate the USA, our values, institutions, and traditions.
Tom

 

[TomC]

As an aside, I actually agree with Derec and RVonse that the electoral college sucks! It’s confusing, inexact and easily manipulated. I’d love to get a better more fair election process.

So do I.
I consider it an obsolete relic of an older time. It's currently used mainly to prop up the power of the Demopublican establishment.
Look up National Popular Vote .com for a sensible solution to the basic problem.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

As an aside, I actually agree with Derec and RVonse that the electoral college sucks! It’s confusing, inexact and easily manipulated. I’d love to get a better more fair election process.

So do I.
I consider it an obsolete relic of an older time. It's currently used mainly to prop up the power of the Demopublican establishment.
Look up National Popular Vote .com for a sensible solution to the basic problem.
Tom

I’m totally on board. The Presidency is such a uniquely powerful position that it should be decided by popular vote.

 

[RVonse]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

RVonse: question for you: what do you think would have happened if the fake electors and Jan 6 folks had succeeded in stopping the EC from electing Biden?

Its hard to say. At the time I would have said it would make no difference other than more due diligence with the vote counting for everyone's satisfaction.

But after the passage of time, I can see how the other side would believe this could be stolen by shenanigans. I'm sure that would have caused an equally massive revolt from the left though.

 

[RVonse]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

I don't know how to respond to this with anything but derision.
Genghis Khan did his thing and died so many centuries ago, I don't remember how long. Comparing that to the Seattle dumbassery is almost as ignorant as comparing the Seattle dumbassery to the Trump Insurrection.

I cannot understand how a modern person with basic education and internet access could make arguments like that.
Unless they just flat out hate the USA, our values, institutions, and traditions.
Tom

Because just about everything that becomes big is someone or something who started out very small and then got big. You would laugh at how small Amazon and Microsoft were at one time. The activities in Seattle did not last long or become more threatening to our nation. But they surely could have and that's not hyperbole.

 

[bilby]

The Presidency is such a uniquely powerful position that it should be decided by popular vote stripped of many of its powers.

FTFY.

The whole point and purpose of democracy is to avoid concentration of power in one person's hands.

Bring able to vote out an unpopular king is better than letting him rule for life, but better still would be to not have a king at all.

 

[TomC]

Its hard to say. At the time I would have said it would make no difference other than more due diligence with the vote counting for everyone's satisfaction.

Dang!
We real U.S. Patriots would have a very clear opinion about trashing basic Usonian institutions because Trump and his violent followers didn't like the outcome of an election.
Tom

 

[bilby]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

I don't know how to respond to this with anything but derision.
Genghis Khan did his thing and died so many centuries ago, I don't remember how long. Comparing that to the Seattle dumbassery is almost as ignorant as comparing the Seattle dumbassery to the Trump Insurrection.

I cannot understand how a modern person with basic education and internet access could make arguments like that.
Unless they just flat out hate the USA, our values, institutions, and traditions.
Tom

Because just about everything that becomes big is someone or something who started out very small and then got big. You would laugh at how small Amazon and Microsoft were at one time. The activities in Seattle did not last long or become more threatening to our nation. But they surely could have and that's not hyperbole.

But the Jan 6 attack on the Capitol could not have?

Is that seriously what you're seeking to imply?

 

[RVonse]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

I don't know how to respond to this with anything but derision.
Genghis Khan did his thing and died so many centuries ago, I don't remember how long. Comparing that to the Seattle dumbassery is almost as ignorant as comparing the Seattle dumbassery to the Trump Insurrection.

I cannot understand how a modern person with basic education and internet access could make arguments like that.
Unless they just flat out hate the USA, our values, institutions, and traditions.
Tom

Because just about everything that becomes big is someone or something who started out very small and then got big. You would laugh at how small Amazon and Microsoft were at one time. The activities in Seattle did not last long or become more threatening to our nation. But they surely could have and that's not hyperbole.

But the Jan 6 attack on the Capitol could not have?

Is that seriously what you're seeking to imply?

No but what I am seeking to imply is that the Jan 6 attack was still at a political level versus the VIOLENT level at Seattle. And Ill take politics (which is really just verbal negotiations) over violence any day of the week.

 

[bilby]

No but what I am seeking to imply is that the Jan 6 attack was still at a political level versus the VIOLENT level at Seattle. And Ill take politics (which is really just verbal negotiations) over violence any day of the week.

Are you suggesting that these people died from politics?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html

 

[TomC]

The only difference I see is that that Jan 6 protesters were obviously NOT armed to the teeth like shown above.

That's the only difference you see? Seriously?

How about this difference.
Much as I oppose BLM and all that crap, what is being described here is a local issue.

That is exactly how all territorial expansions start out. Locally. Did Ghengis Khan acquire most of Asia in one afternoon? Or did he take over local villages until his empire was vast?

I don't know how to respond to this with anything but derision.
Genghis Khan did his thing and died so many centuries ago, I don't remember how long. Comparing that to the Seattle dumbassery is almost as ignorant as comparing the Seattle dumbassery to the Trump Insurrection.

I cannot understand how a modern person with basic education and internet access could make arguments like that.
Unless they just flat out hate the USA, our values, institutions, and traditions.
Tom

Because just about everything that becomes big is someone or something who started out very small and then got big. You would laugh at how small Amazon and Microsoft were at one time. The activities in Seattle did not last long or become more threatening to our nation. But they surely could have and that's not hyperbole.

You're still dodging around the Trump Insurrection!

Those people were trying to end the Usonian democracy. And it wasn't just some street thugs, it was top level government officials like Trump and Hawley and such.

I'm not big on state sanctioned killings, AKA capital punishment. But in the case of the Teaparty attack on the U.S., I'm ambivalent.
I think that Trump's facing a firing squad would be in the best interests of so many millions of people, around the globe, I'd be OK with it.
Tom