Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

[Generation55]

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

 

[ZiprHead]

Welcome to the board.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.

*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.

 

[ZiprHead]

First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.

Actually new members have to submit ten posts before they get assigned a kitten.

 

[Generation55]

First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.

*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.

I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy. I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man. I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.

Have you heard of David Reimer? He was born male and had a botched circumcision that severely in jured his penis. The psychologist John Money told his parents, "Since sex and gender are different, just raise him as a girl. It doesn't matter." Turns out he battled severe depression and committed suicide later in life. Tragic story. but since the psychologist felt that sex and gender had nothing to do with each other, he should've been perfectly fine being raised as a girl. It didn't work.

What do you think about this?

 

[Politesse]

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

 

[Politesse]

First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.

*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.

I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy. I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man. I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.

"Are different" does not mean the same thing as "have nothing to to with each other".

 

[Generation55]

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

but I thought that sex and gender were different. If someone is assigned male at birth, then they are male, right? If their gender is "woman," then how were they misassigned? If the doctor said, "This is a boy"" then that would be misassigned. But, how can sex be misassigned? This is so confusing to me. I can't understand it and it frustrates me so much.

 

[Generation55]

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy.

Again, not about "happy", about who they are.

I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man.

Yet, for some reason you are having this conversation.

Oh, I'm totally cool with transgender... but

I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.

I don't feel a need to address it because it isn't important. What is important what an individual is in their mind. And you seem more interested in obfuscating the subject with labels. Labels are words that we provide things for identity. They don't have to have any viable meaning or usefulness in nature.

 

[Generation55]

I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy.

Again, not about "happy", about who they are.

I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man.

Yet, for some reason you are having this conversation.

Oh, I'm totally cool with transgender... but

I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.

I don't feel a need to address it because it isn't important. What is important what an individual is in their mind. And you seem more interested in obfuscating the subject with labels. Labels are words that we provide things for identity. They don't have to have any viable meaning or usefulness in nature.

I am talking about the labels because these are the labels that the scientific literature on the subject says. They are also the labels trans people go by. I don't have a problem with trans people. I just have no idea what it means to be transgender. I can see someone and they can tell me, "I am a trans woman" or "I am a trans man" but I wonder why and how they are trans. There is no adequate meaning of how and why sex and gender are different. When someone says, "I was born male but I identify as a woman so I am transgender," I wonder how they are transgender if sex and gender are different in the first place. Why even have a word for it? Sex and gender are different, so saying you are transgender implies there is a "right way" to be a man or woman, which transgender people would argue against.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'll put it the way I normally do: sex is the thing you need to consider when you wish to make babies. Gender is the thing you show to the world.

Historically,

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

About sex, as in "around all of the things that help people be ready for, interested in, and cued to sexuality

Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.

Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

There are a couple elements to this. One is that in many cases, we appreciate what we are encouraged to appreciate at young ages, and that will stick with us. Few are given choice of self determination in such regards. Many may not even know there is a different way society offers people to be and think and grow, or a choice of any kind available to them.

Even children as young as six have peers they have been grouped with, and a wave of expectation they are expected to ride that resonates on the frequency of the social group they become part of.

 

[Trausti]

When a girl declares herself a boy (or vice-versa), we now officially believe that the miracle of transubstantiation has taken place. It's even stronger than what happens when a communion wafer transubstantiates, because it changes the past too: that girl was always a boy.

 

[prideandfall]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

ever heard the term "nature vs nurture"?
in US culture nearly all boys are taught from infancy what they are and are not allowed to enjoy, with any interest in dolls or 'feminine' things being instantly chastised and disapproved of, in some areas even being punished for it.
likewise, from birth babies are gendered - pink for girls and blue for boys, start shoving 2 year olds into dresses or blue jeans, a playmobile with little footballs and soccer balls vs. one with unicorns and fairies.

so there's your answer to that - it's just taught cultural attitudes. take a 2 month old male and female and raise them in a biodome with no exposure to any sort of differences or expectations in regards to gender and you would not see the behaviors you describe.
that is *learned* behavior, not inherent genetic differences.

as for the broader question you ask in your OP, well... who knows? and who cares?
information is kind of hard to pin down precisely, but the best estimates by research in the last 5 years indicates that maybe upwards of about 1.5 million people in the US identify as trans.
that's less trans people than there are goths still hanging around, and who gives a shit about goths anymore? that's only slightly more trans people than there are midgets.

the trans issue comes down really simply to an absolutely miniscule number of oddballs doing some shit that doesn't make sense to normal people, but hey whatever makes 'em happy i guess what do i care.
but religious whack jobs and the media fucking looooooooooove trannies and to have an absolute shit fit over them, so their cultural presence is ridiculously magnified in relation to how many of them there are and how much of an impact they actually have on anything, anywhere, for anyone.

sure if you read these forums you might think the he/her armageddon is nigh, but it's really just that this forum has 3 really transphobic reactionary dickheads who post about it *constantly* so that it LOOKS like the topic is everywhere.

the fact is that if you don't "get" the trans issue, it doesn't really matter... because statistically speaking there's so few of them you're likely to never meet one in your life, unless you happen to live in one of the large cities where they tend to congregate.
and if you do happen to come across one 'in the wild', just be polite like you'd be to any other bizarre and unexpected thing you came across at a bar or a restaurant... i mean or don't, i guess? people are assholes to all kinds of folks for all kinds of reasons, i don't see how being a shithead to a trans person is any worse than being a shithead to *insert literally any other kind of person that isn't a cis white heteronormative Chad douchebag*.

 

[Generation55]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

ever heard the term "nature vs nurture"?
in US culture nearly all boys are taught from infancy what they are and are not allowed to enjoy, with any interest in dolls or 'feminine' things being instantly chastised and disapproved of, in some areas even being punished for it.
likewise, from birth babies are gendered - pink for girls and blue for boys, start shoving 2 year olds into dresses or blue jeans, a playmobile with little footballs and soccer balls vs. one with unicorns and fairies.

so there's your answer to that - it's just taught cultural attitudes. take a 2 month old male and female and raise them in a biodome with no exposure to any sort of differences or expectations in regards to gender and you would not see the behaviors you describe.
that is *learned* behavior, not inherent genetic differences.

as for the broader question you ask in your OP, well... who knows? and who cares?
information is kind of hard to pin down precisely, but the best estimates by research in the last 5 years indicates that maybe upwards of about 1.5 million people in the US identify as trans.
that's less trans people than there are goths still hanging around, and who gives a shit about goths anymore? that's only slightly more trans people than there are midgets.

the trans issue comes down really simply to an absolutely miniscule number of oddballs doing some shit that doesn't make sense to normal people, but hey whatever makes 'em happy i guess what do i care.
but religious whack jobs and the media fucking looooooooooove trannies and to have an absolute shit fit over them, so their cultural presence is ridiculously magnified in relation to how many of them there are and how much of an impact they actually have on anything, anywhere, for anyone.

sure if you read these forums you might think the he/her armageddon is nigh, but it's really just that this forum has 3 really transphobic reactionary dickheads who post about it *constantly* so that it LOOKS like the topic is everywhere.

the fact is that if you don't "get" the trans issue, it doesn't really matter... because statistically speaking there's so few of them you're likely to never meet one in your life, unless you happen to live in one of the large cities where they tend to congregate.
and if you do happen to come across one 'in the wild', just be polite like you'd be to any other bizarre and unexpected thing you came across at a bar or a restaurant... i mean or don't, i guess? people are assholes to all kinds of folks for all kinds of reasons, i don't see how being a shithead to a trans person is any worse than being a shithead to *insert literally any other kind of person that isn't a cis white heteronormative Chad douchebag*.

But every time you say "trans people" you are admitting that there is a right way to be a man or woman, otherwise why have the label of trans in the first place? But trans people argue that there is no right way to be a man or woman. You yourself just said they are "oddballs." This is not a term I would use. You are implying they are weird and strange. I am not implying that. I am asking why they consider themselves trans and what it even means. I have never received an adequate answer on this yet..

For example, if you look up the definition of woman, it says "adult human female." The definition of man is "adult human male." These are fair definitions. But when you look up the defintiion of a trans woman it says, "A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth." So a more technical way to say this would be, "A trans woman is an adult human female who was assigned male at birth." But, how can a trans woman be an adult human female if they were born male? They would still be an adult human male, which is the definition of a man.

I can't understand this. I'm desperately trying to understand and I really want to.

 

[Politesse]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?

Gender isn't random, it's a culturally constructed category; you would expect most people to largely conform to its expectations, because they were raised within the same culture from which those categories emerged. You don't intuit how to be a man or woman, it's taught to you. This is easily demonstrable, since different cultures apply different characteristics to gender, and indeed disagree on the number of expected genders, but people nonetheless usually fall into the gender categories they and others in their community expect. But no one ultimately finds that every aspect of their culture appeals to them, and questions of identity are especially fraught due to their emotional and psychological weight. We are also taught not to fidget, for instance, but many people fidget regardless, and interestingly, they do so in culturally predictable ways. The connection to biological sex is a further complication, as even if no one ever challenged cultural categorization, all communities would still have to deal with the reality of persons of ambiguous sex periodically, due to normal biological variation in sex expression.

 

[prideandfall]

But every time you say "trans people" you are admitting that there is a right way to be a man or woman, otherwise why have the label of trans in the first place?

well sure, necessarily being trans means to be an aberration of the norm - which from what you could call a moral perspective the question is whether or not that "right way" actually matters (many consider it to be a moral issue, though personally i see it more as purely an intellectual exercise).
also there's the philosophical question of whether that "right way" is some inherent aspect of the physical reality of the universe (it isn't, btw) or if it's the "right way" for the same reason that driving on the right side of the road is the "right way": ie, it's just that way because that happens to be how we do it.

almost everyone is born with one of two possible sets of genitals, and those who are born without clearly defined genitals are literally an accident, and so they don't count because they're an irrelevant aberration to the process - they should be respected and empathized with for being cast adrift in a world that wasn't made for them, but for the most part they are such a rare thing that culturally they can be and should be ignored.

so it's not really about physicality so much as expressions of self.
if you're someone who for your entire life has fallen squarely into the middle-of-the-road mainstream america way of thinking and way of expressing yourself, you've probably literally never flexed the part of your brain that processes self expression.
i've encountered this dozens upon dozens of times in my life... most people off the street have literally never accessed the part of their intellect that even aware that 'self expression' exists, because for them just slapping on a pair of jeans or slacks and whatever shirt they got at Target means they blend into the huge unwieldy jello mold that is the western pop-cultural mainstream and moved on with their day.

i personally have a deviation from the norm: i never liked how i looked growing up, i never felt good about myself, and in my early teens in the early 90s i discovered that goths exist and it clicked for me in ways it would take a college thesis paper for me to explain.
so for 30 years i've worn all black clothes with a particular style to them because it fits my sense of identity and self expression - so i get existing within a culture where the accepted forms of self expression don't meet your needs, and i get being willing to defy the mainstream to feel content with how you're expressing to the world.

is that wrong? is refusing to wear blue jeans and a polo shirt the "wrong way" to be?
i don't think it's any more wrong (or right) than being a male and identifying with feminine traits or cultural expression.
however, one has to fully admit it's not common or usual or *normal* - the question is then simply one of whether or not it being abnormal means it has to be rejected or attacked.
jews are abnormal, so are the amish. for that, stand up comedians are abnormal... are comedians 'wrong' and should they be outlawed?

But trans people argue that there is no right way to be a man or woman. You yourself just said they are "oddballs." This is not a term I would use. You are implying they are weird and strange. I am not implying that. I am asking why they consider themselves trans and what it even means. I have never received an adequate answer on this yet.

well the way you're framing the question sounds like you're having an issue with the mental gymnastics of separating biological sex, gender expression, and the cultural expression of masculinity and femininity, and i think that's the key to understanding the trans issue.
think of it as "man and woman" vs "male and female" - the former is the cultural concept of what it means to be the latter.

trans people aren't monolithic - it's not like all of them feel the same way about their bodies, or about how they should go about expressing whatever disconnect they have between their sense of self and their bodies.
sometimes a trans person is a guy who gets it in his head to cut off his cock and balls and get surgery to pretend he has a vagina.
sometimes a trans person is a guy who doesn't feel any relation to the cultural concept of masculine behavior or self-expression and so acts in a way most people consider effete, as he tries to embody feminine traits he identifies with.
maybe there's a woman who utterly rejects the social expectations put on her for being a woman and idolizes the notion of being a hairy douchebag so gets her tits chopped off and a skin-tube she can piss out of sewed to her labia.
maybe there's a woman who just likes having pockets.

when people say gender is a spectrum they just mean the expression of masculine or feminine traits as recognized within the mainstream culture.
actual biology is not a spectrum - it's strictly binary, full stop. any attempt to argue that is the desperate and pathetic attempts by the delusional to deny reality, because "i'm aberrant because i want to be because it makes me feel better" isn't good enough for them, they need to find some way to hallucinate a path to "i'm normal" despite not being normal.

 

[Trausti]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?

Gender isn't random, it's a culturally constructed category; you would expect most people to largely conform to its expectations, because they were raised within the same culture from which those categories emerged. You don't intuit how to be a man or woman, it's taught to you. This is easily demonstrable, since different cultures apply different characteristics to gender, and indeed disagree on the number of expected genders, but people nonetheless usually fall into the gender categories they and others in their community expect. But no one ultimately finds that every aspect of their culture appeals to them, and questions of identity are especially fraught due to their emotional and psychological weight. We are also taught not to fidget, for instance, but many people fidget regardless, and interestingly, they do so in culturally predictable ways. The connection to biological sex is a further complication, as even if no one ever challenged cultural categorization, all communities would still have to deal with the reality of persons of ambiguous sex periodically, due to normal biological variation in sex expression.

This seems off. Baby male monkeys have the same toy preferences as baby male humans. It's hard to imagine that evolution limited sex differences to physical characteristics. Would need an explanation for that.

 

[Generation55]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?

Gender isn't random, it's a culturally constructed category; you would expect most people to largely conform to its expectations, because they were raised within the same culture from which those categories emerged. You don't intuit how to be a man or woman, it's taught to you. This is easily demonstrable, since different cultures apply different characteristics to gender, and indeed disagree on the number of expected genders, but people nonetheless usually fall into the gender categories they and others in their community expect. But no one ultimately finds that every aspect of their culture appeals to them, and questions of identity are especially fraught due to their emotional and psychological weight. We are also taught not to fidget, for instance, but many people fidget regardless, and interestingly, they do so in culturally predictable ways. The connection to biological sex is a further complication, as even if no one ever challenged cultural categorization, all communities would still have to deal with the reality of persons of ambiguous sex periodically, due to normal biological variation in sex expression.

Yes, I've heard the culturally constructed argument before. I understand it but I don't know if it can explain everything. I heard someone say a while ago, "Money is a social construct as well. But, this doesn't mean you can write on a piece of paper, "100 hundred dollars" and take that piece of paper to a store and use it."

Likewise gender could be a social construct, but this doesn't mean everyone will take your word for it. So when a trans woman says, "I am now an adult human female" or a trans man says, "I am now an adult human male" it makes some people not understand how that is possible. If a trans woman asked me in person, "Do you think I am a woman?" I wouldn't be able to say "yes" to this question, much in the same way if a person asked, "Do you think this piece of paper is real money?" I wouldn't be able to say yes.

I wish more people would respond because I think this is getting very interesting now. I really want to understand this.

 

[Trausti]

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?

Gender isn't random, it's a culturally constructed category; you would expect most people to largely conform to its expectations, because they were raised within the same culture from which those categories emerged. You don't intuit how to be a man or woman, it's taught to you. This is easily demonstrable, since different cultures apply different characteristics to gender, and indeed disagree on the number of expected genders, but people nonetheless usually fall into the gender categories they and others in their community expect. But no one ultimately finds that every aspect of their culture appeals to them, and questions of identity are especially fraught due to their emotional and psychological weight. We are also taught not to fidget, for instance, but many people fidget regardless, and interestingly, they do so in culturally predictable ways. The connection to biological sex is a further complication, as even if no one ever challenged cultural categorization, all communities would still have to deal with the reality of persons of ambiguous sex periodically, due to normal biological variation in sex expression.

Yes, I've heard the culturally constructed argument before. I understand it but I don't know if it can explain everything. I heard someone say a while ago, "Money is a social construct as well. But, this doesn't mean you can write on a piece of paper, "100 hundred dollars" and take that piece of paper to a store and use it."

Likewise gender could be a social construct, but this doesn't mean everyone will take your word for it. So when a trans woman says, "I am now an adult human female" or a trans man says, "I am now an adult human male" it makes some people not understand how that is possible. If a trans woman asked me in person, "Do you think I am a woman?" I wouldn't be able to say "yes" to this question, much in the same way if a person asked, "Do you think this piece of paper is real money?" I wouldn't be able to say yes.

I wish more people would respond because I think this is getting very interesting now. I really want to understand this.

There are people whose mental self-image differs from their physical body. Folks who hate their hands or legs and get them cutoff to match the mental image. There's a story of lady who poured Drano in her eyes to get blind. Trans is probably like these people. However, these people can actually remove limbs or become blind. A trans person can never change sex.