Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

[ZiprHead]

 

[Toni]

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Ah. We’re different in that respect. I don’t mind single toilet unisex bathrooms at all. But I’d prefer not to share a bathroom with a man who is not an intimate partner, especially at a bar. But it’s rarely an issue as I am rarely at bars….

I am talking when they are single-occupancy bathrooms, and they are unnecessarily segregated. I find that shit creepy.

I don't usually go to places that would have multiple occupancy bathrooms, though, and I haven't been in one in a while.

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Ah. We’re different in that respect. I don’t mind single toilet unisex bathrooms at all. But I’d prefer not to share a bathroom with a man who is not an intimate partner, especially at a bar. But it’s rarely an issue as I am rarely at bars….

I've never seen anyone else's genitalia in a public bathroom. I couldn't care less if there was a female in the stall next to me.

I understand. But you are probably less likely than most women to want to hide out in the ladies room to escape a persistent creep. Also, if I go because I want to fix my makeup or hair, I’d rather not see a dude in the mirror behind me. Now part of that may be generational. It would seem creepy to me, even if it were some perfectly nice person just…doing his business.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I am talking when they are single-occupancy bathrooms, and they are unnecessarily segregated. I find that shit creepy.

I am more creeped out by the idea of what some of the men i know would do to, and with, the contents of a tampon dispenser they found in a bathroom they were alone in.

 

[Metaphor]

I am talking when they are single-occupancy bathrooms, and they are unnecessarily segregated. I find that shit creepy.

I am more creeped out by the idea of what some of the men i know would do to, and with, the contents of a tampon dispenser they found in a bathroom they were alone in.

Who the fuck do you hang out with?

In any case, if the gender ideologists get 'gender-based' bathrooms, the 'men's room' will also get a tampon dispenser, so you'll get to witness....whatever it is you think they're going to do....anyway.

 

[Metaphor]

I understand. But you are probably less likely than most women to want to hide out in the ladies room to escape a persistent creep. Also, if I go because I want to fix my makeup or hair, I’d rather not see a dude in the mirror behind me. Now part of that may be generational. It would seem creepy to me, even if it were some perfectly nice person just…doing his business.

A dude? You don't object to transwomen in your bathroom though, I assume. How can you tell that the 'dude' behind you is a transwoman or not, though?

 

[Toni]

I understand. But you are probably less likely than most women to want to hide out in the ladies room to escape a persistent creep. Also, if I go because I want to fix my makeup or hair, I’d rather not see a dude in the mirror behind me. Now part of that may be generational. It would seem creepy to me, even if it were some perfectly nice person just…doing his business.

A dude? You don't object to transwomen in your bathroom though, I assume. How can you tell that the 'dude' behind you is a transwoman or not, though?

No I would not object to sharing a multi stall bathroom with a trans woman. I’m pretty sure I’ve done so, in fact. Someone who physically presents as male in the same public bathroom with me would feel like a violation of my privacy. At the same time, a 6’6 broad shouldered person with a beard, wearing lipstick and heels and a skirt—I would assume was a trans woman and accept them (as an example, not as the only case). Is this entirely consistent? Perhaps not but we are talking about feelings and comfort not unambiguous rights.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Bathrooms everywhere are already all-gender. What they are not is all-sex.

The popular nomenclature, here in Raleigh, North Carolina, is "all-gender bathroom." That is one of the local norms, where I live. After the famous "bathroom bill" was passed, a large number of restaurants and bars all over town desegregated their bathrooms, and there is even a classy hotel in Durham that has multiple small single-occupancy stalls that actually lock. While the term "all-gender" is not universally used, it is popular at the more upscale hipster hangouts, and in the immediate aftermath of the bill, a large number of businesses had more temporary signs, some of which had verbose statements about their respect for all people. An elderly woman and I eat out once a week, so I have seen nigh about every spot in town. In my perception, segregated single-occupancy bathrooms are falling into disuse in my particular area.

 

[Metaphor]

I understand. But you are probably less likely than most women to want to hide out in the ladies room to escape a persistent creep. Also, if I go because I want to fix my makeup or hair, I’d rather not see a dude in the mirror behind me. Now part of that may be generational. It would seem creepy to me, even if it were some perfectly nice person just…doing his business.

A dude? You don't object to transwomen in your bathroom though, I assume. How can you tell that the 'dude' behind you is a transwoman or not, though?

No I would not object to sharing a multi stall bathroom with a trans woman. I’m pretty sure I’ve done so, in fact. Someone who physically presents as male in the same public bathroom with me would feel like a violation of my privacy. At the same time, a 6’6 broad shouldered person with a beard, wearing lipstick and heels and a skirt—I would assume was a trans woman and accept them (as an example, not as the only case). Is this entirely consistent? Perhaps not but we are talking about feelings and comfort not unambiguous rights.

But that's my point. Your comfort zone extends to people who are unambiguously female (no matter how they present), and people who are male but are dressed in a stereotypically feminine style. It doesn't extend to any male not dressed in a stereotypically feminine style (remember what the gender ideologists say--clothes have no gender!)

But radical gender ideologists say that neither being male, nor presenting as one, would preclude you from being a transwoman. So any person in the 'women's' bathroom, no matter what they look like, is not ever to be questioned. Why do the feelings of comfort of other females - like those who perhaps are comfortable only with females in their sex-segregated spaces--not taken into account?

 

[Metaphor]

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Bathrooms everywhere are already all-gender. What they are not is all-sex.

The popular nomenclature, here in Raleigh, North Carolina, is "all-gender bathroom." That is one of the local norms, where I live. After the famous "bathroom bill" was passed, a large number of restaurants and bars all over town desegregated their bathrooms, and there is even a classy hotel in Durham that has multiple small single-occupancy stalls that actually lock. While the term "all-gender" is not universally used, it is popular at the more upscale hipster hangouts, and in the immediate aftermath of the bill, a large number of businesses had more temporary signs, some of which had verbose statements about their respect for all people. An elderly woman and I eat out once a week, so I have seen nigh about every spot in town. In my perception, segregated single-occupancy bathrooms are falling into disuse in my particular area.

I'm not suggesting the term is not in wide, incoherent use.

I'm saying that all bathrooms are already all-gender, since gender is a thought in your head and the person pissing into the trough next to me, shaking their penis at the end (no matter how you shake and prance, the last two drops end up in your pants) might be any gender or no gender at all.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I am talking when they are single-occupancy bathrooms, and they are unnecessarily segregated. I find that shit creepy.

I am more creeped out by the idea of what some of the men i know would do to, and with, the contents of a tampon dispenser they found in a bathroom they were alone in.

Well, you are currently running out of segregated single-occupancy bathrooms in the Research Triangle Park area. An unexpected consequence, of the famous "bathroom bill," is that the more progressive eating establishments in the state (and many moderate ones) have absolutely abolished segregated single-occupancy bathrooms. At my place of work, both of the two bathrooms are all-gender, or if you prefer, "unisex," though nobody uses the term "unisex" anymore. It sounds like a unicorn with a boner growing out of his head.

 

[Enigma]

Let me clarify my inquiry in another way, using a "scary hypothetical":

One night, while you are sleeping, you get kidnapped and taken out to some random bunker in the middle of nowhere.
You wake up, tied up to a chair while a masked man holds a gun to your head.
They tell you about the student I previously mentioned and want you to answer the question about whether or not they are really a transgirl.
They say that they know whether or not the student is trans and will kill you if you get it wrong and take you back home, safe and sound, if you get it right. You believe them.
They are allowing you to phone-a-friend or zoom call literally any number of teachers and/or staff members of the school and ask them anything you want, with the understanding that if you try any shenanigans to get yourself free without answering the question that you will be dead long before any help arrives.

With that setup in mind: What do you need to ask the teachers and/or staff in order for you to be able to be confident that you can answer correctly?

If your answer amounts to "just ask the teachers if they think the student is trans", then I hate to break it to you, but rural counties in red states have teachers too.
Such teachers aren't guaranteed to believe that being trans is a real thing, much less be able to confidently tell whether or not a student is trans.

Well, I would be dead. I would say "you are a murderer, and you will murder someone for such a petty reason as they will not violate the privacy of another person for your sick amusement. You will make that choice and nobody else. I don't care whether she is trans. You are evil."

Perhaps you would be dead, assuming your moral convictions are as you say that they are. The real question is whether Jimmy would be dead.

He claimed to have some means of "reasonable judgment" to determine whether or not a male student claiming to identify as a transgirl trying to get access to the girl's locker room was actually trans. I called BS on this.

The odd thing is, given your stated position in this thread and that I have seen throughout the forums throughout the long time that I have lurked here is that you should have called BS on this.

Instead, I discovered that, thanks to a fun new forum feature that lets me see what posts are thumbs-upped by whom on a post-by-post basis, you gave a thumbs-up to the post where he made such a claim.

Please explain.

My explanation is that you yourself are making an assumption of bad faith here.

I am merely attempting to determine why you are taking this issue up with me and not with Jimmy.

Your whole line of thought is "how do the teachers know for certain the trans person 'is'?"

Yes, in roughly the same way and for roughly the same reasons as I'd ask about how we can ensure that handicapped parking spots are only used by those who are actually handicapped as opposed to those who identify as handicapped but are actually arseholes.

I'm pretty sure the term "suspect population" is explicitly coined around that concept.

You frame that anyone needs to do finding at all.

No, I believe @Jimmy Higgins did that in response to Emily Lake:

You make it sound like boys in middle or high school can just up and say they are trans, the school will open up the girls locker room to them gleefully, and then erects boys will be taking showers with the girls, none the wiser.

What exactly do you think is preventing this from happening?

You mean other than reasonable judgment? This isn't some sort hack that must be obliged.

What do you believe "reasonable judgment" means in this exchange? What process do you believe both prevents boys just saying they are trans to get into the girls locker room and makes no finding whether or not those boys are actually trans?

The result is that someone will be revealed as a sex offender IFF they are a sex offender;

How so? What process do you believe ensures that all sex offenders will be revealed as such?

a pall will be cast upon any future attempts to transition if they ever had any dissonance/dysphoria at all,

A consequence which is literally of no consequence to the vast majority of people. It's like barring someone from ever winning the lottery.

and they will probably be expelled. They will forever go down as "the boy who did that."

They won't be able to live it down and consequences can be "legal".

Reality will "find" and it's up to us to impart on anyone who starts this journey that this is the case and consequences are dire for bad faith.

Are these just idealized outcomes or do you actually have a notion of how they can be consistently achieved?

That's all the finding needs be done. From there, you follow their transition,

Who does? I don't. Presumably you have some agent of the state or other empowered group in mind?

their behavior, evaluate it honestly, and IFF they violate women, send them to be housed with people who violate women but in such a manner as they are not exposed to people who may violate them.

Somehow I suspect that your definition of "violate women" is significantly more narrow than that of, say, @Emily Lake or @Toni , but even if it isn't, who exactly do you intend to make this judgment?

 

[SigmatheZeta]

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Bathrooms everywhere are already all-gender. What they are not is all-sex.

The popular nomenclature, here in Raleigh, North Carolina, is "all-gender bathroom." That is one of the local norms, where I live. After the famous "bathroom bill" was passed, a large number of restaurants and bars all over town desegregated their bathrooms, and there is even a classy hotel in Durham that has multiple small single-occupancy stalls that actually lock. While the term "all-gender" is not universally used, it is popular at the more upscale hipster hangouts, and in the immediate aftermath of the bill, a large number of businesses had more temporary signs, some of which had verbose statements about their respect for all people. An elderly woman and I eat out once a week, so I have seen nigh about every spot in town. In my perception, segregated single-occupancy bathrooms are falling into disuse in my particular area.

I'm not suggesting the term is not in wide, incoherent use.

I'm saying that all bathrooms are already all-gender, since gender is a thought in your head and the person pissing into the trough next to me, shaking their penis at the end (no matter how you shake and prance, the last two drops end up in your pants) might be any gender or no gender at all.

I have already shown you some of the research on the neurobiological underpinnings of gender dysphoria. I know that you think it's a "thought," but you are oversimplifying. The difference is clearly one that we are born with.

On an unrelated note, I would remind you that, as a gay man, you also have a brain that is, in certain respects, more female than female. Well, at least more female than male...

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait

www.newscientist.com

This does not mean that you have a woman's brain. You have a gay man's brain.

I have a trans-woman's brain.

This is very elementary.

 

[Metaphor]

@Metaphor Well, at bars, which I do occasionally go to, it's actually the men's bathroom that is always full at peak hours, so I don't even bother knocking on the men's room anymore. The ladies' room is usually vacant. I am very impatient with bullshit.

However, if they don't have all-gender bathrooms, I don't usually go back because I kind of find segregated bathrooms to be creepy.

Bathrooms everywhere are already all-gender. What they are not is all-sex.

The popular nomenclature, here in Raleigh, North Carolina, is "all-gender bathroom." That is one of the local norms, where I live. After the famous "bathroom bill" was passed, a large number of restaurants and bars all over town desegregated their bathrooms, and there is even a classy hotel in Durham that has multiple small single-occupancy stalls that actually lock. While the term "all-gender" is not universally used, it is popular at the more upscale hipster hangouts, and in the immediate aftermath of the bill, a large number of businesses had more temporary signs, some of which had verbose statements about their respect for all people. An elderly woman and I eat out once a week, so I have seen nigh about every spot in town. In my perception, segregated single-occupancy bathrooms are falling into disuse in my particular area.

I'm not suggesting the term is not in wide, incoherent use.

I'm saying that all bathrooms are already all-gender, since gender is a thought in your head and the person pissing into the trough next to me, shaking their penis at the end (no matter how you shake and prance, the last two drops end up in your pants) might be any gender or no gender at all.

I have already shown you some of the research on the neurobiological underpinnings of gender dysphoria. I know that you think it's a "thought," but you are oversimplifying. The difference is clearly one that we are born with.

It is a thought. Thoughts arrive out of certain brain-states. But you clearly used 'men's' bathrooms, even though your gender identity is 'woman'. So the men's bathrooms were already all-gender. So were the women's.

'Unisex' might be an 'old-fashioned' term but it has the virtue of being correct. "All-gender" bathrooms are actually unisex. Single-sex bathrooms have always had multiple genders in them.

On an unrelated note, I would remind you that, as a gay man, you also have a brain that is, in certain respects, more female than female. Well, at least more female than male...

So what? My brain states don't make me female. Neither do my interests, or the way I dress, or anything else I do or don't do. In fact, nothing can make me female, because I'm a male mammal.

 

[Trausti]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Some folks will writhe in agony if they cannot label and categorized all others.

Nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women. A biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. A trans must do a lot of work for passable mimicry. Nothing to do with labels just Nature’s cues.

Sure, Jan.


View attachment 36002

Again, it would be nice if gender scholars could pinpoint the exact stage in the evolution of our species when our innate predispositions and psychological adaptions shaped by millions of years of sexual selection were magically erased.

 

[Metaphor]

This does not mean that you have a woman's brain. You have a gay man's brain.

I have a trans-woman's brain.

So....what?

Single-sex spaces are not predicated on the brain-states of the people in those spaces, but on the sexed bodies of the people in those spaces. Women don't use the women's toilets because they have 'ladybrains' but because their bodies are female.

 

[Arctish]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Some folks will writhe in agony if they cannot label and categorized all others.

Nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women. A biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. A trans must do a lot of work for passable mimicry. Nothing to do with labels just Nature’s cues.

Sure, Jan.


View attachment 36002

Again, it would be nice if gender scholars could pinpoint the exact stage in the evolution of our species when our innate predispositions and psychological adaptions shaped by millions of years of sexual selection were magically erased.

It would be even nicer if you could realize that learning things you never knew before about biology doesn't magically erase all prior knowledge.

 

[Trausti]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Some folks will writhe in agony if they cannot label and categorized all others.

Nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women. A biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. A trans must do a lot of work for passable mimicry. Nothing to do with labels just Nature’s cues.

Sure, Jan.


View attachment 36002

Again, it would be nice if gender scholars could pinpoint the exact stage in the evolution of our species when our innate predispositions and psychological adaptions shaped by millions of years of sexual selection were magically erased.

It would be even nicer if you could realize that learning things you never knew before about biology doesn't magically erase all prior knowledge.

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species; what do you think that means? Are you some sort of creationist? Do you imagine that before modernity no one could tell the difference between man and woman?

 

[Trausti]

 

[Metaphor]

I would say 'they've got to be taking the piss', but probably they're not.

 

[Arctish]

Nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women. A biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. A trans must do a lot of work for passable mimicry. Nothing to do with labels just Nature’s cues.

Sure, Jan.


View attachment 36002

Again, it would be nice if gender scholars could pinpoint the exact stage in the evolution of our species when our innate predispositions and psychological adaptions shaped by millions of years of sexual selection were magically erased.

It would be even nicer if you could realize that learning things you never knew before about biology doesn't magically erase all prior knowledge.

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species; what do you think that means? Are you some sort of creationist? Do you imagine that before modernity no one could tell the difference between man and woman?

You said nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women and a biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. I provided a picture of a woman who has gone to a lot of effort to appear a woman. She's wearing foundation, eyeliner, mascara, lipstick, and a pretty head wrap in a style associated with women. But that beard of hers is a lot to overcome.

Granted, her pheromones are probably a pretty big clue. And her voice and mannerisms might be feminine. But she still has to put some effort into her appearance to indicate her sex and gender.

ETA: Did you think she's a transwoman?