Canadian province experiments with decriminalising hard drugs

[Oleg]

Bad policies have consequences.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But why the heck would a doctor want to cut her patient off instead of tapering him off in the first place, unless the government was threatening to prosecute her or yank her license?...

If they didn't expect habituation why would they taper?

Why wouldn't they expect habituation? You said it yourself...

... All the opioids are fairly similar in effects ...

Because a slimebag drug company lied to them and told them their pill was much less of an issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

People are dying of fentanyl because the U.S. government, apparently ignorant of Econ 101, chose to incentivize drug dealers to add fentanyl to their less dangerous products.
The opioid crisis was created by the drug war. Every pain patient who kills himself because the government won't let him have his Vicodin was murdered by the government; that goes without saying. The irony is that even the overdosing junkies who the government was nominally trying to rescue from addiction were murdered by the government.

I never considered you a conspiracy theorist but holy cow.

Why on earth would you think the observation that governments adopt stupid policies that have catastrophic unintended consequences because politicians completely ignore what anybody who's taken Econ 101 could have told them would happen because they care more about winning elections than solving problems is a "conspiracy theory"?

If you disagree with what I'm arguing, please explain by what mechanism an opioid crisis would have arisen if there hadn't first been a drug war.

"People respond to incentives. That is the whole of economics -- the rest is commentary."

1) You're mixing up the opioid issue and the fentanyl issue. It's the latter the government caused.

2) You're assuming malice where I think it's just stupidity. The Republicans are all about the message. Hammer drugs as hard as possible and don't worry about the collateral damage. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even realize the substitution would happen, they're not exactly known for digging into the details and fentanyl did not used to be a drug that got much attention.

While I was aware of the issue of enforcement driving the market to harder drugs I wasn't aware of that "Iron Law" expression, nor was I aware of fentanyl as something the market could be pushed towards.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bad policies have consequences.

The grandmother doesn't understand the situation. While you can force someone to attend drug treatment you can't actually force treatment--it won't work.

 

[Jarhyn]

Bad policies have consequences.

The grandmother doesn't understand the situation. While you can force someone to attend drug treatment you can't actually force treatment--it won't work.

In the reefer madness days the yellow journalist rags would post and repost as many of the rare stories they could and mix in just enough bullshit or spin that what were rare events would seem like frequent occurrences happening in the neighborhoods next door.

You could point at lot of dog bite reports if you want to attack dogs or dog ownership.

You could point at a lot of fentanyl related incidents.

The whole situation is fucked, but it won't get unfucked by building a criminal world of expense and desperation around access to something they are addicted to.

 

[bilby]

In the reefer madness days the yellow journalist rags would post and repost as many of the rare stories they could and mix in just enough bullshit or spin that what were rare events would seem like frequent occurrences happening in the neighborhoods next door.

You could point at lot of dog bite reports if you want to attack dogs or dog ownership.

You could point at a lot of fentanyl related incidents.

... you could point to a lot of Chinese "spy" balloons, if you want to attack China - or at least if you want Americans to stop taking about attacking Russia.

 

[Jarhyn]

In the reefer madness days the yellow journalist rags would post and repost as many of the rare stories they could and mix in just enough bullshit or spin that what were rare events would seem like frequent occurrences happening in the neighborhoods next door.

You could point at lot of dog bite reports if you want to attack dogs or dog ownership.

You could point at a lot of fentanyl related incidents.

... you could point to a lot of Chinese "spy" balloons, if you want to attack China - or at least if you want Americans to stop taking about attacking Russia.

Also true, but off topic.

Infrequent occurrences are framed frequently.

The dog wags.

It's a tale as old as privately controlled media.

Even when I was naive enough to believe the message of the framed content, I was not so interested in repeating the framed line, and I would look outside the frame when beckoned.

All people do when they trade "corporate news" for "alternative news" is switch frames.

The reality when the weird and disinterested people with strange and often boring hobbies look at it is "it's complicated, and doesn't really work either way, it works this other way, and we should be spending more money on education".

If that means an army of homeschool teachers accredited by the state and deployed from schools so every student gets their own teacher with some form of oversight, then sure, let's go with that. Everyone homeschooled! Or small groups?

I wouldn't object overmuch if tomorrow the only use of a classroom was on exam day. Not standardized but just curriculum based exams.

Then, I think classrooms full of peers and common time with them in the same space is important in it's own right so I would have some reservations on cross-visibility and exposure to discussion in a classroom.

Whatever.

More education.

More often.

Better.

Earlier.

Later.

Just, more education for everyone. That's the solution to so many problems.

And it's something to do with the time we have here, when we finish making machines that do all the work because some folks wanted an excuse not to share.

 

[Gospel]

If that means an army of homeschool teachers accredited by the state and deployed from schools so every student gets their own teacher with some form of oversight, then sure, let's go with that. Everyone homeschooled! Or small groups?

Judging by how the information highway is used these days to trick people into fighting each other over bullshit I'm certain having your own teacher without interaction wither your peers will work just as good. I am curious how this experiment will turn out in Canada though. I predict it will decrease organized crime, reduced death by overdose or lack of quality control. It should also decrease spending so that funds can be put towards rehab & prevention efforts rather than blown on incarceration's that does absolutely nothing to the users. Mostly dealers get locked up and they are easily replaced with other dealers since the demand isn't effected. Make drugs legal and you remove the criminal elements (like Prohibition in the US did). Regardless of all the crying done by those in opposition to it, the crying should come with evidence to support the tears.

 

[Jarhyn]

The bigger problem I see is that the drug war is really often a war against those same weird people with boring hobbies.

It's the same as all the calls for prohibition, be it prohibition of comic books or prohibition of homosexuality, or prohibition of gender nonconformity, or the prohibition of marijuana, or the prohibition of alcohol.

Because as much as I have boring hobbies, I like smoking some weed, I've explored altered consciousness, and I have no interest in opioids or meth, and I recognize that MDMA is for sparing medical use because it can play havoc on older kidneys.

I see it as an attack on the things that atypical people like. The badge of a well maintained society is having a maximum number of weird folks with strange and boring hobbies whose hobbies occasionally yield as many cool things as possible.

Sometimes those cool things are drug shaped.

 

[Gospel]

One thing for certain that I can't wrap my mind around is the difference between an illegal drug being sold by that black guy at the corner store vs that black guy with an MD next to his name prescribing the same drug. It's either a legal drug or it's not folks. It's as if the only true separation is the collection of tax.

Maybe if drug dealers made it a thing to pay Taxes on their earnings they can lobby like the legal drug industry for politicians to leave them alone.

 

[Jarhyn]

One thing for certain that I can't wrap my mind around is the difference between an illegal drug being sold by that black guy at the corner store vs that black guy with an MD next to his name prescribing the same drug. It's either a legal drug or it's not folks. It's as if the only true separation is the collection of tax.

Maybe if drug dealers made it a thing to pay Taxes on their earnings they can lobby like the legal drug industry for politicians to leave them alone.

The problem is, too many folks wanting to do that were liberal or black, and the politicians wouldn't hear for it.

Not to mention that illegality and risk lets them treat their employees like slaves condoms against exposure to illegality, discarding them as easily. They need provide no health insurance or OSHA. They can tell everyone at every level to be as greedy as they can get away with, and cover the difference with violence.

 

[Gospel]

Judging by how the information highway is used these days to trick people into fighting each other over bullshit I'm certain having your own teacher without interaction wither your peers will work just as good.

Quick Derail (Please don't reply to this) I was taking a shot at OpenAI's chat GBT with that quote. This potshot will be very important in the near future. You think the press was good at misinformation, just wait until everyone blindly trusts the bot.

END derail.

 

[bilby]

It's as if the only true separation is the collection of tax.

Try selling tobacco or alcohol without collecting the tax, and see how tolerant law enforcement are of that behaviour.

Recreational drugs have long been lawful, as long as the government gets their cut of the action. Indeed, it's slightly strange that more such drugs are not both lawful and highly taxed.

 

[Toni]

One thing for certain that I can't wrap my mind around is the difference between an illegal drug being sold by that black guy at the corner store vs that black guy with an MD next to his name prescribing the same drug. It's either a legal drug or it's not folks. It's as if the only true separation is the collection of tax.

Maybe if drug dealers made it a thing to pay Taxes on their earnings they can lobby like the legal drug industry for politicians to leave them alone.

Because a lot of medications can do great harm if not taken correctly, and sometimes under medical supervision.

Take antibiotics. A lot of people quit taking them or quit giving them to their kids as soon as they feel better. I get it. It’s easy to forget a dose, you might feel not grest with regards to your digestive tract or you might have to wrestle your 2 year old to get them to swallow their dose, so people don’t finish their script, They take enough to feel fine which is enough to kill off all but the most resistant of the bacteria—and those just continue to grow and pass on their antibiotic resistant genes to the next generation abd the next….So, now we have a bunch of antibiotic resistant strains of all kinds of things. All of this was made worse because we started raising livestock in crowded inhumane conditions and then started incorporating antibiotics into their diets as a regular thing, now, we have a very limited number of effective antibiotics and a lot of drug resistant strains out there,

But you’re thinking mostly of drugs that can cause dependence. Doctors prescribed pain
meds, usually 30 days worth for a post op patient. Me? I will take them for a day. Some people experience more pain and need the full 30 days. Or more. But most people hang on to the extras for just in case. And for people who get grabbed by the meds—and some people absolutely do! I know I’m extremely lucky that so far, that’s never been me. It’s not because I’m so strong willed and full of self control. It’s because, thanks to a fluke of genetics, so far, I’ve never felt that pull. I’m extremely grateful.

People pass some around to a friend or family who can’t afford a doctor pr can’t get a script. Maybe because their doc knows they quickly become dependent. Or knows it’s not good for someone with their condition or who is taking some different medication, Or whatever, or someone goes shopping in other peoples medicine cabinets. I don’t know. It has as much appeal for me as dropping a brick on my toe.

Or for some people, they have other medical conditions that can make taking some meds dangerous or deadly. A long time ago, a friend’s mother died because she had a celebratory drink or two when her husband returned from overseas. The doctor never warned her because she didn’t ordinarily drink. It interacted with a medication she was taking for a heart condition and killed her.

Lots of medications can have bad side effects or others can be dangerous without medical supervision to ensure they are taken properly. A lot of people who are otherwise smart are just not medically sophisticated and do not realize the dangers of mixing this with that or skipping doses or doubling up or taking when you are also drinking alcohol.

It’s not different than saying if it’s legal for Mary the pilot to fly a passenger plane then Toni who can drive a car and read a lot in the internet and watched several TikToks should be able to hop in the cockpit and fly just the same as Mary,

Even under medical supervision, some people make mistakes, don’t take their meds as prescribed. Some doctors over prescribe or under prescribe and some don’t listen well to their patients. Not every doctor is good at their job, unfortunately.

I understand the argument that recreational drugs should be available for those who want to take them. Ok, but there are people who absolutely will believe that they can get a better high off the illicit stuff. I mean, how else do you explain bath salts?? I knew someone from when he was a kid and liked to play GI Joe in my basement like that. Wrecked up his life and did a lot of damage to his family as well, all before he was 25. Bright kid, well liked, good student, good family who loved him. Drugs made him batshit crazy.

No one is an island. Messing yourself up on whatever to the point you don’t function as a member of society hurts a lot more than just you.

 

[Gospel]

Because a lot of medications can do great harm if not taken correctly, and sometimes under medical supervision.

That's fair. However in the state of Florida a small-but-detectable amount of any controlled substance except marijuana, carries a penalty of up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000 for drug dealers while practicing medicine without a license is a $1,000 fine and a minimum mandatory period of incarceration of 1 year. Why the discrepancy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Toni]

Because a lot of medications can do great harm if not taken correctly, and sometimes under medical supervision.

That's fair. However in the state of Florida a small-but-detectable amount of any controlled substance except marijuana, carries a penalty of up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000 for drug dealers while practicing medicine without a license is a $1,000 fine and a minimum mandatory period of incarceration of 1 year. Why the discrepancy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think we should criminalize drug possession. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

I do have big qualms about legalization simply because I think more people will use. That's it: full stop. I don't want to increase inappropriate use or addiction or increased use of drugs.

 

[Gospel]

Because a lot of medications can do great harm if not taken correctly, and sometimes under medical supervision.

That's fair. However in the state of Florida a small-but-detectable amount of any controlled substance except marijuana, carries a penalty of up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000 for drug dealers while practicing medicine without a license is a $1,000 fine and a minimum mandatory period of incarceration of 1 year. Why the discrepancy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think we should criminalize drug possession. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

I do have big qualms about legalization simply because I think more people will use. That's it: full stop. I don't want to increase inappropriate use or addiction or increased use of drugs.

I respect that, however is there anything that was once illegal that has been made legal that as a result of it becoming legal usage was increased?

 

[Elixir]

Why don’t we all reserve judgment for a week or two and see how it goes for BC?
IMO it is foolish to sit here pronouncing decriminalization to be our salvation or the end of civilization as we know it, when we have a real world experiment right in front of us that will prove it out one way or another.

 

[Gospel]

Not really that silly to discuses the probability of decriminalization's success when you have the end of Prohibition to use as an example. Just sayin

 

[Elixir]

Not really that silly to discuses the probability of decriminalization's success when you have the end of Prohibition to use as an example. Just sayin

Right, and we have the Portugal example. At some point, the hand wringing over legalization is going to appear blatantly foolish, unless some disaster befalls one of the countries or provinces that decriminalized drugs, as a result of that action. So far, not happening.