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Captain America: Civil War trailer released

Eh, I doubt they'll follow the comic book that slavishly. None of the other movies have. The only part that is required to fill in the role is a character who starts off in Iron Man's camp, then switches sides to Captain America. Pretty much anybody can do that.
 
Eh, I doubt they'll follow the comic book that slavishly. None of the other movies have.

Depends on the movie, as to the degree of divergence, but I certainly get your point.

The only part that is required to fill in the role is a character who starts off in Iron Man's camp, then switches sides to Captain America. Pretty much anybody can do that.

If they are going to go that route, and not have Spidey meet any of the expectations of him set by the comic, why even have him in the movie? At least having him fulfill the first action Spidey really takes in the Civil War comics gives the audience something they can relate to on an emotional level, since his character is so well known.

In the clip about Black Panther that was posted above, the guys on that show were talking about how this doesn't need to be another Spider-Man origin story, and that, to me, shows that they don't understand anything about Civil War. It was never an origin story for Spider-Man, it fully depended upon the audience already knowing about Spider-Man and his relationships. The Civil War movie can do the exact same thing with Spidey, because everyone already knows his story. They are already losing some of the initial emotional appeal by apparently removing the Stamford Incident from the story line (unless Winter Soldier somehow "causes" it in a similar way to the New Warriors). Having Spidey just put in a cameo or two, rather than using his character to connect the audience with the enormity of the decision he has to make just takes away another powerful dimension that the movie could have. Maybe if the Black Panther movie came first, and they gave us something to care about in the character, he could take on that role. I just don't see it happening at this point.
 
Ya, that is the problem with the Black Panther taking on the Spidey role in it. If some dude whom we just met switches back and forth between the two sides, it doesn't really make an impact. Having the motivations of each of them analyzed by an outsider may help to clarify what each is going for, but I think everyone other than Cap and Iron Man are pretty much just going to be fodder to help flesh out what gets presented as an individual contest between the two of them.

I really hope they focus on that storyline. I remember in Winter Soldier, Cap was having an argument with Nick Fury about the trade-offs between freedom and security in regards to the flying aircraft carrier fleet. That sounded like a really interesting conversation and I was looking forward to how they went ahead and and worked the trade-offs between those ideals into the plotline and ... oh wait, one of the sides of that argument turned out to be a secret group of evil Nazis - never mind. I want this movie to be about the conflict between Cap and Iron Man and not have the moral ambiguity of each side derailed by one of them being a Nazi plot or something.
 
Depends on the movie, as to the degree of divergence, but I certainly get your point.

The only part that is required to fill in the role is a character who starts off in Iron Man's camp, then switches sides to Captain America. Pretty much anybody can do that.

If they are going to go that route, and not have Spidey meet any of the expectations of him set by the comic, why even have him in the movie? At least having him fulfill the first action Spidey really takes in the Civil War comics gives the audience something they can relate to on an emotional level, since his character is so well known.

In the clip about Black Panther that was posted above, the guys on that show were talking about how this doesn't need to be another Spider-Man origin story, and that, to me, shows that they don't understand anything about Civil War. It was never an origin story for Spider-Man, it fully depended upon the audience already knowing about Spider-Man and his relationships. The Civil War movie can do the exact same thing with Spidey, because everyone already knows his story. They are already losing some of the initial emotional appeal by apparently removing the Stamford Incident from the story line (unless Winter Soldier somehow "causes" it in a similar way to the New Warriors). Having Spidey just put in a cameo or two, rather than using his character to connect the audience with the enormity of the decision he has to make just takes away another powerful dimension that the movie could have. Maybe if the Black Panther movie came first, and they gave us something to care about in the character, he could take on that role. I just don't see it happening at this point.
By "enormity of the decision", I think you are referring to him revealing his identity rather than him switching sides halfway through the movie. But the former is not going to happen. First, even in comics it was immediately retconned in the most inane way possible, and I really doubt that Marvel Cinematic Universe is going to have Spidey make a deal with the devil to undo it. Second, it would totally fuck over Sony's upcoming Spider-Man movies. Not gonna happen. I suppose they could find someone else to do it, but who? People in MCU just don't have secret identities mostly, and it's not really that relevant to the story.

So, when the identity reveal is out, all that leaves storywise is some character who switches sides halfway through. I don't know if it'll be Black Panther or Spider-Man or Winter Soldier, but that doesn't depend on anyone knowing the character beforehand.
 
Well, its kind of a big reversal isn't it? In the USA, we are used to getting movies about black people and their problems, with a white guy thrown in to help us the dumb white audience to relate (Glory, The Last King of Scotland, etc). Now we are getting a black guy thrown in to help us understand the conflict between the white billionaire industrialist and the white military leadership.

Progress?
 
Depends on the movie, as to the degree of divergence, but I certainly get your point.



If they are going to go that route, and not have Spidey meet any of the expectations of him set by the comic, why even have him in the movie? At least having him fulfill the first action Spidey really takes in the Civil War comics gives the audience something they can relate to on an emotional level, since his character is so well known.

In the clip about Black Panther that was posted above, the guys on that show were talking about how this doesn't need to be another Spider-Man origin story, and that, to me, shows that they don't understand anything about Civil War. It was never an origin story for Spider-Man, it fully depended upon the audience already knowing about Spider-Man and his relationships. The Civil War movie can do the exact same thing with Spidey, because everyone already knows his story. They are already losing some of the initial emotional appeal by apparently removing the Stamford Incident from the story line (unless Winter Soldier somehow "causes" it in a similar way to the New Warriors). Having Spidey just put in a cameo or two, rather than using his character to connect the audience with the enormity of the decision he has to make just takes away another powerful dimension that the movie could have. Maybe if the Black Panther movie came first, and they gave us something to care about in the character, he could take on that role. I just don't see it happening at this point.
By "enormity of the decision", I think you are referring to him revealing his identity rather than him switching sides halfway through the movie. But the former is not going to happen. First, even in comics it was immediately retconned in the most inane way possible, and I really doubt that Marvel Cinematic Universe is going to have Spidey make a deal with the devil to undo it. Second, it would totally fuck over Sony's upcoming Spider-Man movies. Not gonna happen. I suppose they could find someone else to do it, but who? People in MCU just don't have secret identities mostly, and it's not really that relevant to the story.

So, when the identity reveal is out, all that leaves storywise is some character who switches sides halfway through. I don't know if it'll be Black Panther or Spider-Man or Winter Soldier, but that doesn't depend on anyone knowing the character beforehand.

Yup, that was what I was referring to, and I don't see why it has to be out. If this is going to be Spideys only appearance in the MCU (I honestly don't know if that is the case), they don't have to worry about it. Most big changes in the comics are retconned sooner or later, and Spider-Man has certainly seen his share of this. Sony has not kept the Spider-Man backstory consistent throughout their movies, and all they have to do is ignore the MCU Spider-Man like they ignored Toby Maguire's Spider-Man when Andrew Garfield came along. The MCU hasn't dealt much with secret identities because, for the most part, the super heroes they have used don't have secret identities in the comics. Spidey doing a reveal can be relevant to the story, if done right, and for MCU fans it would harken back to Tony Stark's reveal at the end of the first Iron Man movie.

Anyway, however he is used, I just don't think Black Panther taking Spider-Man's role from the comics would resonate well with the MCU audience, as those who are not comic book fans know nothing about him. If they are going to go that route, there is no real reason to have Spider-Man in the movie. Since we know Spider-Man will be in the movie, I don't see any reason to think the guys in that clip have it right.
 
Anyway, however he is used, I just don't think Black Panther taking Spider-Man's role from the comics would resonate well with the MCU audience, as those who are not comic book fans know nothing about him. If they are going to go that route, there is no real reason to have Spider-Man in the movie. Since we know Spider-Man will be in the movie, I don't see any reason to think the guys in that clip have it right.

But we do know that the script for this movie was written before Marvel got the rights to Spiderman and that Black Panther was specifically written in to fill the role which Spidey had in the comics in order to give the character a prominent storyline that would lead into his own movie. While they added some scenes to get Spidey into it once the Sony deal went through, Sony still owns and profits from Spiderman, so Marvel isn't going to undercut their own franchise in favour of somebody else's franchise by diminishing what they had Black Panther doing in order to give Spidey a major role. He'll be there and have a decent amount of screentime because fans want that, but they're not going to be rewriting Black Panther scenes to make them Spiderman scenes.
 
By "enormity of the decision", I think you are referring to him revealing his identity rather than him switching sides halfway through the movie. But the former is not going to happen. First, even in comics it was immediately retconned in the most inane way possible, and I really doubt that Marvel Cinematic Universe is going to have Spidey make a deal with the devil to undo it. Second, it would totally fuck over Sony's upcoming Spider-Man movies. Not gonna happen. I suppose they could find someone else to do it, but who? People in MCU just don't have secret identities mostly, and it's not really that relevant to the story.

So, when the identity reveal is out, all that leaves storywise is some character who switches sides halfway through. I don't know if it'll be Black Panther or Spider-Man or Winter Soldier, but that doesn't depend on anyone knowing the character beforehand.

Yup, that was what I was referring to, and I don't see why it has to be out. If this is going to be Spideys only appearance in the MCU (I honestly don't know if that is the case), they don't have to worry about it. Most big changes in the comics are retconned sooner or later, and Spider-Man has certainly seen his share of this. Sony has not kept the Spider-Man backstory consistent throughout their movies, and all they have to do is ignore the MCU Spider-Man like they ignored Toby Maguire's Spider-Man when Andrew Garfield came along. The MCU hasn't dealt much with secret identities because, for the most part, the super heroes they have used don't have secret identities in the comics. Spidey doing a reveal can be relevant to the story, if done right, and for MCU fans it would harken back to Tony Stark's reveal at the end of the first Iron Man movie.

Anyway, however he is used, I just don't think Black Panther taking Spider-Man's role from the comics would resonate well with the MCU audience, as those who are not comic book fans know nothing about him. If they are going to go that route, there is no real reason to have Spider-Man in the movie. Since we know Spider-Man will be in the movie, I don't see any reason to think the guys in that clip have it right.

Why wouldn't it resonate?

T'Challa is a crown prince, and as such very interested in the rule of law, and so has a compelling reason to side with Iron Man.

However, within Wakanda, he is a reformer who is constantly butting heads with the traditionalists, and wants to turn Wakanda into a constitutional monarchy, so the freedom arguments from Captain America's side will also appeal to him. Besides, in the comic books, his closest friend among superheroes is Steve Rogers.

As a comic book fan, it feels completely natural to me that T'Challa would be torn between the arguments coming from both sides. If some event occurs in Wakanda to alter his political motivations, it would be even easier to accept him changing sides, because he always thinks about Wakanda first (as is appropriate for a future monarch).

At the time they were hashing out the story, they didn't know if they would get the rights to Spider-Man, so Black Panther was the next best choice for that part in the story. It fits. The only thing I need to see from Spider-Man in this movie is the Iron Spider suit.
 
Yup, that was what I was referring to, and I don't see why it has to be out. If this is going to be Spideys only appearance in the MCU (I honestly don't know if that is the case), they don't have to worry about it. Most big changes in the comics are retconned sooner or later, and Spider-Man has certainly seen his share of this. Sony has not kept the Spider-Man backstory consistent throughout their movies, and all they have to do is ignore the MCU Spider-Man like they ignored Toby Maguire's Spider-Man when Andrew Garfield came along. The MCU hasn't dealt much with secret identities because, for the most part, the super heroes they have used don't have secret identities in the comics. Spidey doing a reveal can be relevant to the story, if done right, and for MCU fans it would harken back to Tony Stark's reveal at the end of the first Iron Man movie.

Anyway, however he is used, I just don't think Black Panther taking Spider-Man's role from the comics would resonate well with the MCU audience, as those who are not comic book fans know nothing about him. If they are going to go that route, there is no real reason to have Spider-Man in the movie. Since we know Spider-Man will be in the movie, I don't see any reason to think the guys in that clip have it right.

Why wouldn't it resonate?

I don't think it will resonate with the casual MCU fans, who have no awareness of Black Panther and his back story. Those fans are going to make up the bulk of the audience in theaters.

T'Challa is a crown prince, and as such very interested in the rule of law, and so has a compelling reason to side with Iron Man.

However, within Wakanda, he is a reformer who is constantly butting heads with the traditionalists, and wants to turn Wakanda into a constitutional monarchy, so the freedom arguments from Captain America's side will also appeal to him. Besides, in the comic books, his closest friend among superheroes is Steve Rogers.

As a comic book fan, it feels completely natural to me that T'Challa would be torn between the arguments coming from both sides. If some event occurs in Wakanda to alter his political motivations, it would be even easier to accept him changing sides, because he always thinks about Wakanda first (as is appropriate for a future monarch).

Sure, as a comic book fan, but the average MCU viewer is not a comic book fan. There is going to be too much going on in the Civil War plot line itself to give adequate time for Black Panther's origin story. If they try that, I think it will end up like Age of Ultron, where even though Ultron was the titular character, his character was not developed well enough for his decision to resonate with the audience. Age of Ultron was still a good movie, and made tons of money, but it could have been a great movie if they had been able to spend more time on Ultron's motivations. If they really do a total swap out of Black Panther for Spider-Man as the pivotal character, then Civil War could run into the same problem.

At the time they were hashing out the story, they didn't know if they would get the rights to Spider-Man, so Black Panther was the next best choice for that part in the story. It fits. The only thing I need to see from Spider-Man in this movie is the Iron Spider suit.

At that time it made sense, but it's not like they just found out they would have Spider-Man yesterday. It has been a done deal long enough for them to fix the story, and put Spidey back in the spotlight.
 
At that time it made sense, but it's not like they just found out they would have Spider-Man yesterday. It has been a done deal long enough for them to fix the story, and put Spidey back in the spotlight.

But while that may help with one potentially minor aspect of the plot, it would be a poor business decision. Black Panther is a franchise they want to promote because they make all the money off of him. Spiderman is a franchise they don't have much interest in promoting because someone else makes all the money off of him. The popularity of the character makes it in their interest to have him in the film, but they don't want to take the focus off of their own product in order to promote someone else's product.

With Iron Man, Captain America and Thor all pretty much done, Marvel is looking to focus on the other characters it's going to be making movies of in the future. Black Panther is one of the main ones of those and they have zero interest in de-emphasizing him in favour of one of Sony's characters.
 
At that time it made sense, but it's not like they just found out they would have Spider-Man yesterday. It has been a done deal long enough for them to fix the story, and put Spidey back in the spotlight.

But while that may help with one potentially minor aspect of the plot, it would be a poor business decision. Black Panther is a franchise they want to promote because they make all the money off of him. Spiderman is a franchise they don't have much interest in promoting because someone else makes all the money off of him. The popularity of the character makes it in their interest to have him in the film, but they don't want to take the focus off of their own product in order to promote someone else's product.

With Iron Man, Captain America and Thor all pretty much done, Marvel is looking to focus on the other characters it's going to be making movies of in the future. Black Panther is one of the main ones of those and they have zero interest in de-emphasizing him in favour of one of Sony's characters.

That certainly makes some sense from a business perspective, but I am not sure every decision will be made from that perspective. If they had done the Black Panther movie first, and gave the MCU fans a character to care about, with a proper treatment of his origin story and background, I would be more likely to give credence to the idea of his character filling the Spider-Man role. I am sure we will get more info from leaks and new trailers before May, and my opinion could change. I just don't buy it right now, but I could be wrong.
 
I think that's it's going to be, in the scheme of the movie, a relatively minor point. It looks like they're going to be using the basic outline of the Civil War storyline to focus on a more personal story between Cap and Iron Man and the other heroes are just kind of set pieces who happen to be there as well, as opposed to it being a more overarching story which deals with heroes in general. Neither Spiderman nor the Black Panther is going to be key to what's happening, so you don't particularly need to care about them because their struggle isn't important to the film except as to how it reflects or expands upon an aspect of the struggle between the two main characters.

Then, at the end, everybody becomes friends and teams up to fight Doomsday because fuck you, everything that I found interesting about this movie. :mad:
 
If the role played by Spider-Man can be interchangeably swapped out, wouldn't Hawkeye have made a better choice? I'm asking on behalf of my wife, who likes the comic book movies but doesn't read comic books. She doesn't know Black Panther from a hole in the wall, any more than she knew who Ultron was before the last movie. So without a LOT of screen time exploring BP's motivations, she won't care about his struggle. But she knows Hawkeye from two Avengers movies, and since we now know he has a wife and kiddos at home to worry about, the struggle becomes more personal.
 
A good question.

Another good question is will the Black Widow take advantage of this turmoil within the largely US led SHIELD agency to bring Russia more to the fore? Like threaten to walk out on the Avengers unless they bring in more Russian, Chinese and Iranian superheroes?
 
If the role played by Spider-Man can be interchangeably swapped out, wouldn't Hawkeye have made a better choice? I'm asking on behalf of my wife, who likes the comic book movies but doesn't read comic books. She doesn't know Black Panther from a hole in the wall, any more than she knew who Ultron was before the last movie. So without a LOT of screen time exploring BP's motivations, she won't care about his struggle. But she knows Hawkeye from two Avengers movies, and since we now know he has a wife and kiddos at home to worry about, the struggle becomes more personal.

Yes, from the perspective of what that character is supposed to do, Hawkeye would make a lot more sense. However, Marvel hasn't invested in a Hawkeye franchise. They have invested in a Black Panther franchise, so they want to take the time to build up that character by giving him a larger role in his first introduction. Other than Cap, Iron Man and Bucky, the Spiderman role from the comics is probably the largest role in the movie. They want to use that role to feature their new product prominently.

Additionally, the MCU has been facing a lot of criticism about how the vast majority of its heroes are a bunch of white guys. They have a major role here, so they're going to give it to the black guy to get everyone to shut the fuck up.
 
Another good question is will the Black Widow take advantage of this turmoil within the largely US led SHIELD agency to bring Russia more to the fore? Like threaten to walk out on the Avengers unless they bring in more Russian, Chinese and Iranian superheroes?

No. While I don't want anybody to read my response to this as implying that I have negative opinions about people due to their ethnic group, she won't be doing this because Russians, as a whole, are self-serving dipshits who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves, so she wouldn't even consider taking an opportunity to help someone else.
 
A good question.

Another good question is will the Black Widow take advantage of this turmoil within the largely US led SHIELD agency to bring Russia more to the fore? Like threaten to walk out on the Avengers unless they bring in more Russian, Chinese and Iranian superheroes?
Turmoil within SHIELD?
I'm not sure there is any turmoil. Could you elaborate, please?
In any case, as far as we know, she doesn't know that SHIELD even exists anymore - she seems to think there was disbanded.

But with regard to your question, I'd say she wouldn't, because:

1. Based on TWS, I'd say she seems to have a very negative memory of her time as a KGB agent. It seems to me she thought she had moved from working from an evil agency (KGB) to a good one (SHIELD), which is why she was so disappointed when she realized she was still (albeit unknowingly this time) working for the bad guys (HYDRA).

2. There is no suggestion she's inclined to bring Iranian or Chinese people in particular. Why not Brazilians, Saudis or Italians?

3. More generally, she doesn't seem interested in threatening the rest of the avengers due to some nationalistic (but which nationalities?) or ethnic bias.
 
Why wouldn't it resonate?

I don't think it will resonate with the casual MCU fans, who have no awareness of Black Panther and his back story. Those fans are going to make up the bulk of the audience in theaters.

T'Challa is a crown prince, and as such very interested in the rule of law, and so has a compelling reason to side with Iron Man.

However, within Wakanda, he is a reformer who is constantly butting heads with the traditionalists, and wants to turn Wakanda into a constitutional monarchy, so the freedom arguments from Captain America's side will also appeal to him. Besides, in the comic books, his closest friend among superheroes is Steve Rogers.

As a comic book fan, it feels completely natural to me that T'Challa would be torn between the arguments coming from both sides. If some event occurs in Wakanda to alter his political motivations, it would be even easier to accept him changing sides, because he always thinks about Wakanda first (as is appropriate for a future monarch).

Sure, as a comic book fan, but the average MCU viewer is not a comic book fan. There is going to be too much going on in the Civil War plot line itself to give adequate time for Black Panther's origin story. If they try that, I think it will end up like Age of Ultron, where even though Ultron was the titular character, his character was not developed well enough for his decision to resonate with the audience. Age of Ultron was still a good movie, and made tons of money, but it could have been a great movie if they had been able to spend more time on Ultron's motivations. If they really do a total swap out of Black Panther for Spider-Man as the pivotal character, then Civil War could run into the same problem.

At the time they were hashing out the story, they didn't know if they would get the rights to Spider-Man, so Black Panther was the next best choice for that part in the story. It fits. The only thing I need to see from Spider-Man in this movie is the Iron Spider suit.

At that time it made sense, but it's not like they just found out they would have Spider-Man yesterday. It has been a done deal long enough for them to fix the story, and put Spidey back in the spotlight.

The basic outline of Black Panther's split motivations in the debate would be very easy to communicate to fans with just a little bit of dialog.

All they have to do is mention that he is a crown prince, and it is not hard to see why he would resonate with the rule of law arguments from Iron Man's side.

All they have to do is mention that he wants to turn Wakanda into a constitutional monarchy, and the audience will understand why he would find Captain America's arguments compelling.

Yeah, it would take a little extra to explain to the audience, but they don't actually need much explaining for the motives to make sense to a general audience member who is not familiar with T'Challa's backstory.
 
The basic outline of Black Panther's split motivations in the debate would be very easy to communicate to fans with just a little bit of dialog.

All they have to do is mention that he is a crown prince, and it is not hard to see why he would resonate with the rule of law arguments from Iron Man's side.

All they have to do is mention that he wants to turn Wakanda into a constitutional monarchy, and the audience will understand why he would find Captain America's arguments compelling.

Yeah, it would take a little extra to explain to the audience, but they don't actually need much explaining for the motives to make sense to a general audience member who is not familiar with T'Challa's backstory.
there's a scene where a podium blows up. right before the explosion, you can see that the podium has a UN symbol on it - and a big change from the comic story to the movie appears to be making the registration act going from being a local US thing to a global thing.
(there's a lot of UN symbols and peacekeepers in the trailer). a central plot point appears to be that everyone thinks bucky is who blew up the UN room, that's the thing that gets everyone chasing bucky i'd wager.

in the comics, black panther's father is the leader of wakanda and a member of the UN, and while in the comics he died years ago it would be easy to have him be alive and be in the UN room, causing black panther to think bucky killed his dad - explaining why he's attacking bucky in the trailer, and putting him on iron man's side simply for personal reasons.
(and note too that the directors of civil war have said they want the motivations to be more personal and less political, so the script goes out of its way to make it about grudges and less about ideology)
 
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Another trailer released:



They finally showed us the new Spider-Man. Looks good. Mechanical web-shooters! Not sure how I feel about the mechanical eyes on the suit, but I like that they went with a more Ditko look to them. Also, Tony called him "Underoos." :)

Oh, and...


We see T'Challa in civilian clothes injured at a UN facility that was blown up.

I'm guessing that this will be the movie in which his father dies, and it will be at the UN facility. They also show a lot of scenes of Black Panther chasing and attacking Winter Soldier. Assuming they aren't creating a false impression through editing, I'm speculating that the UN facility will be the reason T'Challa is outside of Wakanda (they've already said they won't show us Wakanda yet... maybe some kind of diplomatic event related to the Sokovia Accords?), the diplomatic conference or whatever will be attacked. If T'Challa's father is there, he will die, and T'Challa will blame Bucky. Wild speculation, obviously.

 
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