Charlie Kirk shot in Utah

[Toni]

Teenagers are children.

Teenagers (14 to 19) are minors, but they aren't juveniles, hence not children.

I don’t think you know the definition of juvenile.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Re gun laws:

@ZiprHead -
Do you consider the AU model too lax?
@Emily Lake -
Do you consider the AU model too restrictive?

Just trying to narrow down the point of disagreement, if there is one.

From an unbiased and objective perspective, I'd say the AU model is somewhat too restrictive, but plausibly not unreasonable.

That said, however, there's a world of difference between people never having had a constitutional right to firearms and taking away a right.

You don't know Australia's history. Gun possession may not have been a right, but it was and is a privilege, and there are many Australians who have guns. So no right was taken away by gun laws. Throughout most human history gun ownership has never been a right.
If there is a psychological difference between people that have a right to own guns and those for whom it is a privilege, then that difference is amenable to study by experts in mental conditions. If there is no such psychological difference then there is not a world of difference between people who do or do not have such a dubious (not natural) right.
There is a universal declaration of human rights, and gun ownership is not one of those rights.
If "taking away" (actually only suggesting regulations, not removal of a "right") Americans "gun rights" has such a debilitating impact on so many people (their minds or social perceptions), then Americans may need massive therapy to wean them away from a condition similar in type to drug addiction.

Additionally there are many amendments and original Constitutional words that Americans seem happy to ignore, being obsessed only with this one. Americans don't have a constitutional right to have limbs or a head, but I'm sure they would miss not having them, so don't need a thing to be a right to have it make a difference when that thing is taken away. Strangely Americans don't have rights to food, shelter, and other necessary things, but rather have rights mainly to nebulous concepts like "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Many Americans do not really understand what rights are. They are granted by other people. They are not innate, which is how many Americans see gun rights as - that is, not granted by other humans but by nature itself.

 

[Elixir]

Many Americans do not really understand what rights are. They are granted by other people. They are not innate, which is how many Americans see gun rights as - that is, not granted by other humans but by nature itself.

Yup. They even refer to their “god given rights” to this that and the other thing, including guns, and even women’s bodies. It’s a corrupt and insidious turn of phrase.

somewhat too restrictive, but plausibly not unreasonable.

Way to put your opinion out there Ems!
You sure keep an ample supply of smarmy weasel words handy for occasions when an opinion is requested.
You COULD have just said yes, it’s too restrictive. But you didn’t want to defend that, did you? So instead you posted a self contradiction.
Sadly predictable.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

You know Emily, I don't actually care about Rittenhouse. And neither do you.

 

[Toni]

Yes. Several people in this thread have taken the position that Rittenhouse did NOT have a right to self-defense... because he shouldn't have been present in the first place, and the fact that he was present and in possession of a firearm makes Rittenhouse the aggressor, and it makes Rosenbaum's actions of chasing down, cornering, and attacking Rittenhouse into a defensive action, and therefore Rittenhouse is a murderer.

Rittenhouse was in violation of the clean hands law doctrine. He purchased the weapon illegally. He entered a closed zone illegally, He was carrying the weapon illegally and it was reported he brandished the weapon which is very illegal and can get you shot if you do it towards police officers.

I know, I know. He totally brought it on himself, he's to blame for being chased, cornered, and attacked by someone else. Did you see what he was wearing?

There's not a single person that night (except for perhaps cops and EMTs) who was there legally - therefore not a single person had clean hands by your logic.

I agree, actually. But people get pissed/anxious when someone points a semi auto weapon at them.

People also get terrified and anxious when a grown-ass adult chases them, corners them, and tries to physically attack them.

Why were grown ass adults chasing him?

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

 

[Elixir]

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

What's Amurka coming to, when you can't even go hunt down and shoot some commies without them come chasing after you?
It ain't right I tellya. Any self-proclaimed "moderate" would say so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, I am still shocked and incredulous that you seem to believe that a 16 year old reasons more like a 22 year old than like a 12 year old.

A 16 year old is more likely to engage in all sorts of risky behavior than a 12 year old but they do not have sufficient life experience nor brain development compared with someone in their 20’s. But because many physically resemble adults, some people conflate body size and secondary sexual characteristics with maturity and adulthood . To the great detriment of the 16 year olds and society as a whole.

Um... that's not actually true. Cognitively and developmentally a 16 year old is much more like a 22 year old than a 12 year old. I think you're really, really, really downplaying the role of puberty in cognition and decision making. Of course a 16 year old isn't exactly as developed as a 22 year old, but they're far closer to that than to 12.

Yeah, the thing is Derec... *looks at the post handle* Wait what?!

 

[Derec]

Yeah, the thing is Derec... *looks at the post handle* Wait what?!

I find it baffling that this view is so controversial when it should be obvious to anyone who knows young people of those ages.

 

[Derec]

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

How is that a response to the comment about Rosenbaum you were replying to? Yes, Ritt shot him, but only after being attacked.

You do not know what the members of the mob who chased Ritt saw or did not see. And I do not think Huber and Grosskreutz in particular observed this self-defense shooting at all.

 

[Derec]

What's Amurka coming to, when you can't even go hunt down and shoot some commies without them come chasing after you?

Who "hunted down some commies"? The evidence showed that Rosenbaum chased down Rittenhouse, cornered him, and lunged for his weapon.
But since that does not fit the woke narrative, a more suitable one must be invented.

 

[Derec]

Treating a 16 year old like a 22 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious years to grow and develop into the adult they could be.

And treating a 16 year old like a 12 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious opportunity to grow and develop into an adult by gradually assuming more rights and responsibilities.

Maturing does not just happen due to chronology. It's an active process, and sheltering teenagers and treating them like children is hindering that process.

 

[Arctish]

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

How is that a response to the comment about Rosenbaum you were replying to? Yes, Ritt shot him, but only after being attacked.

You do not know what the members of the mob who chased Ritt saw or did not see. And I do not think Huber and Grosskreutz in particular observed this self-defense shooting at all.

You post like you don't remember the videos of Rittenhouse before and after he shot Rosenbaum.

What "mob" chased him?

 

[TSwizzle]

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

How is that a response to the comment about Rosenbaum you were replying to? Yes, Ritt shot him, but only after being attacked.

You do not know what the members of the mob who chased Ritt saw or did not see. And I do not think Huber and Grosskreutz in particular observed this self-defense shooting at all.

You post like you don't remember the videos of Rittenhouse before and after he shot Rosenbaum.

What "mob" chased him?

I don't know it it qualifies as a "mob" but the reporter states that "others in the crowd" chased Rittenhouse including Anthony Huber, who struck Rittenhouse with a skateboard which is clearly seen in the video. Rittenhouse was entitled to defend himself from this lunatic.

 

[laughing dog]

Treating a 16 year old like a 22 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious years to grow and develop into the adult they could be.

And treating a 16 year old like a 12 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious opportunity to grow and develop into an adult by gradually assuming more rights and responsibilities.

You mean like imprisonment with adults?

Maturing does not just happen due to chronology. It's an active process, and sheltering teenagers and treating them like children is hindering that process.

Recognizing that teenagers are children does not mean treating them like very young children. Responsible adults who know about children treat different ages differently.

Treating children like children means not treating them like adults.

 

[Arctish]

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

How is that a response to the comment about Rosenbaum you were replying to? Yes, Ritt shot him, but only after being attacked.

You do not know what the members of the mob who chased Ritt saw or did not see. And I do not think Huber and Grosskreutz in particular observed this self-defense shooting at all.

You post like you don't remember the videos of Rittenhouse before and after he shot Rosenbaum.

What "mob" chased him?

I don't know it it qualifies as a "mob" but the reporter states that "others in the crowd" chased Rittenhouse including Anthony Huber, who struck Rittenhouse with a skateboard which is clearly seen in the video. Rittenhouse was entitled to defend himself from this lunatic.

Rittenhouse was not "entitled" to shoot anyone. He's not a Prince in an absolute monarchy.

Our society recognizes a Right of self defense. Rittenhouse was found Not Guilty of murder despite his own contributions to the conflict that resulted in two deaths. That doesn't mean the people trying to prevent him from fleeing the scene of a homicide or to disarm him were wrong to do so, or that any of them were lunatics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, the thing is Derec... *looks at the post handle* Wait what?!

I find it baffling that this view is so controversial when it should be obvious to anyone who knows young people of those ages.

Indeed. An 8 year old is much more like a 14 year old than a 2 year old.

 

[Elixir]

Our society recognizes a Right of self defense. That's why Rittenhouse was found Not Guilty of murder despite his own contributions to the conflict that resulted in two deaths.

Confirming that someone in the crowd should have “felt threatened” and killed the bad guy boy with the gun before he could kill two people. The lib commie leftists need to arm up!

 

[Toni]

Treating a 16 year old like a 22 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious years to grow and develop into the adult they could be.

And treating a 16 year old like a 12 year old is cheating the 16 year old of precious opportunity to grow and develop into an adult by gradually assuming more rights and responsibilities.

Maturing does not just happen due to chronology. It's an active process, and sheltering teenagers and treating them like children is hindering that process.

I agree. But treating a 16 year old like a 20 year old or even an 18 year old is also cheating the 16 year old of precious opportunity to grow and develop naturally into an adult. A 16 year old—or any child—should be treated according to their chronological age and intellectual development as well as their emotional and social maturity.

I’ve raised four children of my own and have had at least half a dozen other adolescents living under my roof, in addition to many many hours of childcare ( other than my own) , volunteer work with kids of various ages and listening to a lot of adolescents talk at my dinner table. And of course a lot of reading and talking with other parents, teachers and other professionals.

I’ve also watched my parents who, because of their childhood circumstances, assumed adult responsibilities when they were quite young. Basically, they raised themselves. And that foreshortened childhood cheated them both out of the opportunity to grow into the adults they each could have been. Don’t get me wrong: I loved my parents and respected them both, very much. I admire how much they overcame. But I remember watching my dad watch my children play and got a window into just how much he missed as a child. My mother as well, whose own adolescence was made more difficult by my grandmother’s denial and superstitions, attempting to keep her a little girl well into her teens. And then, as was customary in their day and time, my parents were expected to be fully functional adults at 18. They married at 19. Had their first child at 21. They did not get the chance to figure out who they were or what they wanted. It was extremely unfair and had lifelong consequences.

I see dangers in both the assumption that kids ( birth through adulthood) are more capable or less capable than they really are at their developmental stages. Which vary by age on an individual basis.

My observation is that children grow much like a pendulum swings: a couple of steps forward, then a step or two or three forward. One of my kids grew 10 inches in one year. Socially/emotionally he lagged significantly while intellectually, he was years ahead of his chronological age, just as socially, he lagged a couple of years. It was an interesting time….

 

[TSwizzle]

Because Rosenbaum was already agitated, already aggressive, and Rittenhouse made a good target for him, I suppose.

No, people were chasing Rittenhouse AFTER they saw him shoot someone.

How is that a response to the comment about Rosenbaum you were replying to? Yes, Ritt shot him, but only after being attacked.

You do not know what the members of the mob who chased Ritt saw or did not see. And I do not think Huber and Grosskreutz in particular observed this self-defense shooting at all.

You post like you don't remember the videos of Rittenhouse before and after he shot Rosenbaum.

What "mob" chased him?

I don't know it it qualifies as a "mob" but the reporter states that "others in the crowd" chased Rittenhouse including Anthony Huber, who struck Rittenhouse with a skateboard which is clearly seen in the video. Rittenhouse was entitled to defend himself from this lunatic.

Rittenhouse was not "entitled" to shoot anyone. He's not a Prince in an absolute monarchy.

He had a “mob” chasing him, that is evident from your own link. He’s entitled to defend himself as necessary.

Our society recognizes a Right of self defense. Rittenhouse was found Not Guilty of murder despite his own contributions to the conflict that resulted in two deaths. That doesn't mean the people trying to prevent him from fleeing the scene of a homicide or to disarm him were wrong to do so, or that any of them were lunatics.

Rittenhouse was being chased by an angry “mob” and was assaulted when one of the “mob” caught up with him. His life was undoubtedly in danger, he did the right thing within the law. These assholes learned a valuable lesson that day, fuck them.

 

[Elixir]

These assholes learned a valuable lesson that day,

Yeah. Arm up and next time some punk brandishes an AR at a demonstration, don’t try to disarm him; shoot the fucker first.