China-Bashing

[barbos]

Observation: Many people are unwilling to talk about any subject matter that might be politically sensitive.

Chinese are really indifferent to politics, add the fact
that CCP brought their population out of abject poverty and you will understand why they don't want to listen to your sermons.
Western propaganda likes to take some crazy idiots and make dissidents out of them in order to paint completely distorted picture about level of dissent.

 

[Toni]

Interesting re: progressive property taxes. Not sure how that will be enforced.

In general I find I do have an increasingly negative bias against foreign nationals and foreign entities purchasing real estate in the US. I know that many countries put serious restrictions on such and I can see why.

In the US as well as many other places, there is an increasing issue with the in affordability of housing. Purchases by foreign nationals does not help the situation. China has vast land that it can develop its own.

Directly, it doesn't actually matter. Whether a local investor or a foreign investor owns the house makes no difference to the supply of real estate.

What is a problem is that much of the foreign investment is money fleeing to a place of safety and bids up the price of housing in the affected cities. The Chinese especially have an obsession with real estate as a store of value (and their own market is horribly overpriced--rental rates nowhere near justify the sale prices) and the flow of money into our cities is an issue.

The moron in Florida is going about it totally wrong, though--Chinese citizens can be here as permanent residents and those aren't the problem. Rather it's non-owner-occupied real estate that's the issue.

It matters when any entity/individual comes in and is willing and able to purchase property at inflated prices, effectively pricing locals out of the market. Not China but I’ve seen this happen and I’ve seen the ripple effects throughout the community.

I agree that it is the non-residents ( and corporations) that are the problem.

 

[bilby]

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

Take.

Taking something unsecured isn't stealing, unless it's unlawful in the jurisdiction in which the taking occurs.

That you characterise their behaviour as stealing says a lot about your unconscious assumptions, and nothing at all about China.

So I'm free to distribute copies of your book and not pay you royalties?

In China? Yes. Unless the Chinese government has granted me copyright protection, and is prepared to enforce it.

Indeed, that's true of any jurisdiction.

What do you imagine I could do to stop you?

You're free to distribute copies of any work that's out of copyright, or that isn't copyrighted, in the jurisdiction in which you distribute it.

Copyright law is just a judicial law, not a law of nature. You can't build a perpetual motion machine in any jurisdiction, but you can certainly print and sell a book, in any jurisdiction in which that work isn't protected by the law.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

China is a repressive authoritarian regime with a recent history of imperialism, and in opposition to the concept of freedom and democracy. Refer to Uyghurs, Tibet, Hong Kong, and the South China Sea.

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

 

[laughing dog]

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

I seriously doubt Tibetans or Uighur agree.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

China is a party to multiple international agreements concerning IP.

True, but it's cultural thing. They just never had it in their culture and "steal" IP from each other without any consequence. That's annoying.
Western countries did it too, as recently as 70s and computers and chips in general were not protected.
Companies were free to copy everything.

Theft was generally not a big factor before everything was digital.

How do you know?
China has always had problem with corruption (theft) and all kind of scams. CCP could not solve it.
It's part of culture. And it takes generations to change that.
Take Taiwan for example. It took generations indirect (through puppet dictators) US rule to make them have "western" style "democracy".
They got there only recently and we can't be sure how reliable they are, it all could be just a result of constant american managing.

South Korea and even Japan are not exactly western style democracies.
Hell, even US is not really that great democracy. US is really an oligarchate.

Pointing out that China has a culture of corruption is in no way a rebuttal to my point.

It's so much easier to steal an electronic document than it is to steal and analyze an existing item. Of course the documents get stolen more!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Observation: Many people are unwilling to talk about any subject matter that might be politically sensitive.

Chinese are really indifferent to politics, add the fact
that CCP brought their population out of abject poverty and you will understand why they don't want to listen to your sermons.
Western propaganda likes to take some crazy idiots and make dissidents out of them in order to paint completely distorted picture about level of dissent.

You have no idea of the situation. I'm talking about suddenly changing the topic when I gave an answer to one of their questions that didn't match up with Beijing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Interesting re: progressive property taxes. Not sure how that will be enforced.

In general I find I do have an increasingly negative bias against foreign nationals and foreign entities purchasing real estate in the US. I know that many countries put serious restrictions on such and I can see why.

In the US as well as many other places, there is an increasing issue with the in affordability of housing. Purchases by foreign nationals does not help the situation. China has vast land that it can develop its own.

Directly, it doesn't actually matter. Whether a local investor or a foreign investor owns the house makes no difference to the supply of real estate.

What is a problem is that much of the foreign investment is money fleeing to a place of safety and bids up the price of housing in the affected cities. The Chinese especially have an obsession with real estate as a store of value (and their own market is horribly overpriced--rental rates nowhere near justify the sale prices) and the flow of money into our cities is an issue.

The moron in Florida is going about it totally wrong, though--Chinese citizens can be here as permanent residents and those aren't the problem. Rather it's non-owner-occupied real estate that's the issue.

It matters when any entity/individual comes in and is willing and able to purchase property at inflated prices, effectively pricing locals out of the market. Not China but I’ve seen this happen and I’ve seen the ripple effects throughout the community.

I agree that it is the non-residents ( and corporations) that are the problem.

It's the flow of capital into the area, not whether they are residents or not.

Owner-occupied is inherently self-limiting and doesn't cause nearly the issue that external capital bidding up prices does. And the Chinese market is so utterly insane at present that wildly overpriced US homes would seem a bargain by comparison.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

I seriously doubt Tibetans or Uighur agree.

You don't have a basis for comparison. 60 years ago is Cultural Revolution time.

 

[Toni]

Interesting re: progressive property taxes. Not sure how that will be enforced.

In general I find I do have an increasingly negative bias against foreign nationals and foreign entities purchasing real estate in the US. I know that many countries put serious restrictions on such and I can see why.

In the US as well as many other places, there is an increasing issue with the in affordability of housing. Purchases by foreign nationals does not help the situation. China has vast land that it can develop its own.

Directly, it doesn't actually matter. Whether a local investor or a foreign investor owns the house makes no difference to the supply of real estate.

What is a problem is that much of the foreign investment is money fleeing to a place of safety and bids up the price of housing in the affected cities. The Chinese especially have an obsession with real estate as a store of value (and their own market is horribly overpriced--rental rates nowhere near justify the sale prices) and the flow of money into our cities is an issue.

The moron in Florida is going about it totally wrong, though--Chinese citizens can be here as permanent residents and those aren't the problem. Rather it's non-owner-occupied real estate that's the issue.

It matters when any entity/individual comes in and is willing and able to purchase property at inflated prices, effectively pricing locals out of the market. Not China but I’ve seen this happen and I’ve seen the ripple effects throughout the community.

I agree that it is the non-residents ( and corporations) that are the problem.

It's the flow of capital into the area, not whether they are residents or not.

Owner-occupied is inherently self-limiting and doesn't cause nearly the issue that external capital bidding up prices does. And the Chinese market is so utterly insane at present that wildly overpriced US homes would seem a bargain by comparison.

Yes, so the fact that foreign investors—I do not mean to vilify the Chinese—see outrageous prices as bargains — it DOES cause an inflow of capitol into the pockets of the seller and their agents but it artificially inflated the cost of housing and increases the tax burden for locals.

I’ve seen this happen in towns I am familiar with—places that are now facing a labor shortage because workers who want to live/work in the area cannot afford to pay what are now outrageous prices for rent/buy in that area. In full disclosure, I actually was someone who thought about buying my own piece of property in that area, for my own use, so I am aware of just how much those prices have been inflated. And I’m talking in the middle of nowhere in flyover country. The only people who can afford property are those corporations who operate them as businesses—at rates too high for most people.

Foreign investors tend to be even more out of touch and less likely to invest their profits in the local area. Instead, they will suck out every dollar they can and spend it elsewhere, caring nothing for the people whose families have lived there for generations abd who want and need that support as they raise their own families and start their own businesses—which would funnel profits/money back into the area.

 

[laughing dog]

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

I seriously doubt Tibetans or Uighur agree.

You don't have a basis for comparison. 60 years ago is Cultural Revolution time.

I didn’t realize you were a spokesperson for Tibet or the Uighurs.

 

[zorq]

China is a repressive authoritarian regime with a recent history of imperialism, and in opposition to the concept of freedom and democracy. Refer to Uyghurs, Tibet, Hong Kong, and the South China Sea.

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

If sanctions never did any good nobody would use them for anything. But sanctions do work for nation states using the exact same human psychological principals that work on toddlers. Stop hitting your sister and you can come out of time out and enjoy ice cream with the rest of us. Rich assholes who control authoritarian police states like to get even richer and there is more money in open markets than in isolationist hell holes like North Korea. The adults in the room can potentially influence the greedy children to act nice.

You know, I suspect the reason so many rich Russians have fallen out of windows lately is because they were motivated by western sanctions to oppose Putin. (It's possible some of them had highly developed senses of justice and morality, but I doubt it. )

Russian sanctions are doing what they were intended to do. I'm sure even Putin is disappointed that the can't buy that new mega-yacht that he was planning on purchasing this year (on his totally immaculate and not at all corrupt salary as a public servant)

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

If China's cheating is really a problem, then
Boycotts, Sanctions, and Embargoes are not the solution.

The U.S. can steal Chinese technology just as easily as China can steal U.S. technology.

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

If "an awful lot more" means twice as much, or three times, then it doesn't matter. They still have enough for us to "steal" and benefit from their technology (or "intellectual property"). And in any case, their intellectual property will increase in the future.

Also, might there be a difference between "intellectual property" and "technology"? I don't believe a claim which says China doesn't have a lot of "technology" we could steal. Probably "we" (developed countries) are already doing much, maybe surreptitiously, to gain more knowledge from Chinese technology (analyzing it, picking it apart, etc.). I'm sure we're not so stupid to neglect any opportunity to do this. It is disingenuous for us to whine about the nasty Chinese "cheating" and not playing fair about the secret technologies.

If they have figured out ways to "steal" our intellectual property but we can't figure out how to "steal" theirs, maybe there's something wrong with us. Maybe our companies should hire some Chinese experts to teach us how to "steal" intellectual property, or maybe we can "steal" those instructional materials from them somehow. Or maybe we can figure out how to "steal" from them but have not yet really tried. (Or maybe, more likely, is that we've already done all the above.) It seems the fault lies more on our side than on theirs.

The main rule of thumb is to do whatever benefits consumers, not protect producers.


legitimate need to protect producers, creativity, etc.

Do the intellectual property laws truly reward the more efficient producers and thus benefit consumers?

Not all patents/copyrights/trademarks etc. are beneficial to consumers. So this all needs to be re-examined to make sure the original purpose is really achieved, i.e., the purpose of making the production improve for the benefit of consumers.

And probably the response of boycotts, sanctions, embargoes (BSE) etc. is counterproductive, more harm than good for consumers.

In concrete examples of it, no one has given a good explanation why we don't already have ways to counteract the "cheating" without the need for BSE. Why couldn't the U.S. simply confiscate the "stolen" products and have the property-owner (patent/copyright etc. holder) be compensated, paid their appropriate price. Instead of DESTROYING the confiscated products, these could just be put out for sale in the market, at market price, and the company paid.

What are we doing now, other than confiscating the products and destroying them? This is hardly an appropriate way to fix anything.

How does destroying the "bandit" product make things better? This approach assumes that those illegal products are somehow tainted, poisoned, contaminated, and fit only for extermination. How is this mentality any different than that of those striking auto-workers back in the 1990s who took a sledge hammer to the Japanese imported car? This symbolism doesn't make consumers better off but only worse.


inferior copycat products

How do we know that the counterfeit products are really inferior? Maybe they're just a less costly version which is either just as good, or if not that, they are a little inferior but also the price is lower enough to make it a good deal for consumers.

It's not accurate to say simply that the Asian products are inferior to the U.S. products. Because the truth is that American products are often inferior to the German and Canadian products. It's all relative.

All that really matters is the benefit to consumers, and it should be left to them to decide what is "inferior" or "superior" production. In some cases the higher quality is not worth the extra cost.


Prioritize consumer benefit over nationalism/xenophobia

So it's not clear that this "theft" is really something harmful to consumers. In some cases it's a good deal for consumers, and the domestic producers need to learn how to get the cost down, rather than try to suppress the importation of the cheaper products.

Assuming there's really an intellectual property rights violation problem, the solution to it is not something to interfere with trade or crack down on the "bandit" products etc. Rather, there are ways which ENCOURAGE trade rather than discourage it.

So it's not that there's no problem at all. Rather, it's that anti-trade solutions are always wrong. Reducing trade and scapegoating the foreign production as evil never makes it better but only worse. We can find ways to fix what's wrong without having a crusade against the damn foreigners stealin' our jobs (which really is 90% of what this is about). We first need to get rid of the xenophobic delusionalism, recognize the benefit of more trade, and reject any form of trade barriers, which gives higher priority to prejudice and xenophobia over what's good for consumers.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If China's cheating is really a problem, then
Boycotts, Sanctions, and Embargoes are not the solution.

The U.S. can steal Chinese technology just as easily as China can steal U.S. technology.

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

If "an awful lot more" means twice as much, or three times, then it doesn't matter. They still have enough for us to "steal" and benefit from their technology (or "intellectual property"). And in any case, their intellectual property will increase in the future.

Also, might there be a difference between "intellectual property" and "technology"? I don't believe a claim which says China doesn't have a lot of "technology" we could steal. Probably "we" (developed countries) are already doing much, maybe surreptitiously, to gain more knowledge from Chinese technology (analyzing it, picking it apart, etc.). I'm sure we're not so stupid to neglect any opportunity to do this. It is disingenuous for us to whine about the nasty Chinese "cheating" and not playing fair about the secret technologies.

If they have figured out ways to "steal" our intellectual property but we can't figure out how to "steal" theirs, maybe there's something wrong with us. Maybe our companies should hire some Chinese experts to teach us how to "steal" intellectual property, or maybe we can "steal" those instructional materials from them somehow. Or maybe we can figure out how to "steal" from them but have not yet really tried. (Or maybe, more likely, is that we've already done all the above.) It seems the fault lies more on our side than on theirs.

The main rule of thumb is to do whatever benefits consumers, not protect producers.


legitimate need to protect producers, creativity, etc.

Do the intellectual property laws truly reward the more efficient producers and thus benefit consumers?

Not all patents/copyrights/trademarks etc. are beneficial to consumers. So this all needs to be re-examined to make sure the original purpose is really achieved, i.e., the purpose of making the production improve for the benefit of consumers.

And probably the response of boycotts, sanctions, embargoes (BSE) etc. is counterproductive, more harm than good for consumers.

In concrete examples of it, no one has given a good explanation why we don't already have ways to counteract the "cheating" without the need for BSE. Why couldn't the U.S. simply confiscate the "stolen" products and have the property-owner (patent/copyright etc. holder) be compensated, paid their appropriate price. Instead of DESTROYING the confiscated products, these could just be put out for sale in the market, at market price, and the company paid.

What are we doing now, other than confiscating the products and destroying them? This is hardly an appropriate way to fix anything.

How does destroying the "bandit" product make things better? This approach assumes that those illegal products are somehow tainted, poisoned, contaminated, and fit only for extermination. How is this mentality any different than that of those striking auto-workers back in the 1990s who took a sledge hammer to the Japanese imported car? This symbolism doesn't make consumers better off but only worse.


inferior copycat products

How do we know that the counterfeit products are really inferior? Maybe they're just a less costly version which is either just as good, or if not that, they are a little inferior but also the price is lower enough to make it a good deal for consumers.

It's not accurate to say simply that the Asian products are inferior to the U.S. products. Because the truth is that American products are often inferior to the German and Canadian products. It's all relative.

All that really matters is the benefit to consumers, and it should be left to them to decide what is "inferior" or "superior" production. In some cases the higher quality is not worth the extra cost.


Prioritize consumer benefit over nationalism/xenophobia

So it's not clear that this "theft" is really something harmful to consumers. In some cases it's a good deal for consumers, and the domestic producers need to learn how to get the cost down, rather than try to suppress the importation of the cheaper products.

Assuming there's really an intellectual property rights violation problem, the solution to it is not something to interfere with trade or crack down on the "bandit" products etc. Rather, there are ways which ENCOURAGE trade rather than discourage it.

So it's not that there's no problem at all. Rather, it's that anti-trade solutions are always wrong. Reducing trade and scapegoating the foreign production as evil never makes it better but only worse. We can find ways to fix what's wrong without having a crusade against the damn foreigners stealin' our jobs (which really is 90% of what this is about). We first need to get rid of the xenophobic delusionalism, recognize the benefit of more trade, and reject any form of trade barriers, which gives higher priority to prejudice and xenophobia over what's good for consumers.

Meh! What is the consumer benefit? Their costs are high. They don't respect western IP. They threaten us with war all the time. They withhold rare minerals from us when they can. They threaten us with war all the time. Almost every day. They are land disputes with India, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines. And they threaten our most important supply chain cog today, Taiwan, with total destruction. As long as war is avoided, I don't think that we should ban all trade with them. But what is the benefit to us to trade with them?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If China's cheating is really a problem, then
Boycotts, Sanctions, and Embargoes are not the solution.

The U.S. can steal Chinese technology just as easily as China can steal U.S. technology.

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

If "an awful lot more" means twice as much, or three times, then it doesn't matter. They still have enough for us to "steal" and benefit from their technology (or "intellectual property"). And in any case, their intellectual property will increase in the future.

Also, might there be a difference between "intellectual property" and "technology"? I don't believe a claim which says China doesn't have a lot of "technology" we could steal. Probably "we" (developed countries) are already doing much, maybe surreptitiously, to gain more knowledge from Chinese technology (analyzing it, picking it apart, etc.). I'm sure we're not so stupid to neglect any opportunity to do this. It is disingenuous for us to whine about the nasty Chinese "cheating" and not playing fair about the secret technologies.

If they have figured out ways to "steal" our intellectual property but we can't figure out how to "steal" theirs, maybe there's something wrong with us. Maybe our companies should hire some Chinese experts to teach us how to "steal" intellectual property, or maybe we can "steal" those instructional materials from them somehow. Or maybe we can figure out how to "steal" from them but have not yet really tried. (Or maybe, more likely, is that we've already done all the above.) It seems the fault lies more on our side than on theirs.

The main rule of thumb is to do whatever benefits consumers, not protect producers.


legitimate need to protect producers, creativity, etc.

Do the intellectual property laws truly reward the more efficient producers and thus benefit consumers?

Not all patents/copyrights/trademarks etc. are beneficial to consumers. So this all needs to be re-examined to make sure the original purpose is really achieved, i.e., the purpose of making the production improve for the benefit of consumers.

And probably the response of boycotts, sanctions, embargoes (BSE) etc. is counterproductive, more harm than good for consumers.

In concrete examples of it, no one has given a good explanation why we don't already have ways to counteract the "cheating" without the need for BSE. Why couldn't the U.S. simply confiscate the "stolen" products and have the property-owner (patent/copyright etc. holder) be compensated, paid their appropriate price. Instead of DESTROYING the confiscated products, these could just be put out for sale in the market, at market price, and the company paid.

What are we doing now, other than confiscating the products and destroying them? This is hardly an appropriate way to fix anything.

How does destroying the "bandit" product make things better? This approach assumes that those illegal products are somehow tainted, poisoned, contaminated, and fit only for extermination. How is this mentality any different than that of those striking auto-workers back in the 1990s who took a sledge hammer to the Japanese imported car? This symbolism doesn't make consumers better off but only worse.


inferior copycat products

How do we know that the counterfeit products are really inferior? Maybe they're just a less costly version which is either just as good, or if not that, they are a little inferior but also the price is lower enough to make it a good deal for consumers.

It's not accurate to say simply that the Asian products are inferior to the U.S. products. Because the truth is that American products are often inferior to the German and Canadian products. It's all relative.

All that really matters is the benefit to consumers, and it should be left to them to decide what is "inferior" or "superior" production. In some cases the higher quality is not worth the extra cost.


Prioritize consumer benefit over nationalism/xenophobia

So it's not clear that this "theft" is really something harmful to consumers. In some cases it's a good deal for consumers, and the domestic producers need to learn how to get the cost down, rather than try to suppress the importation of the cheaper products.

Assuming there's really an intellectual property rights violation problem, the solution to it is not something to interfere with trade or crack down on the "bandit" products etc. Rather, there are ways which ENCOURAGE trade rather than discourage it.

So it's not that there's no problem at all. Rather, it's that anti-trade solutions are always wrong. Reducing trade and scapegoating the foreign production as evil never makes it better but only worse. We can find ways to fix what's wrong without having a crusade against the damn foreigners stealin' our jobs (which really is 90% of what this is about). We first need to get rid of the xenophobic delusionalism, recognize the benefit of more trade, and reject any form of trade barriers, which gives higher priority to prejudice and xenophobia over what's good for consumers.

Meh! What is the consumer benefit? Their costs are high. They don't respect western IP. They threaten us with war all the time. They withhold rare minerals from us when they can. They threaten us with war all the time. Almost every day. They are land disputes with India, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines. And they threaten our most important supply chain cog today, Taiwan, with total destruction. As long as war is avoided, I don't think that we should ban all trade with them. But what is the benefit to us to trade with them?

You mean other than the fact that we gave so much of our production to them? The benefit of the trade is the labor is cheap and expansive. AND, because China attacking the US and visa versa harms each other's economy substantially. Economic dependency is better than MAD.

Complaining about China's fuckery in Asia is fucked up without taking note of our own fuckery in Central America and the Middle East. Yes, we are way more open, less despotic, but we also have a not too long ago history of supporting monsters who did some pretty bad things. Support? I mean help overthrow the other guy to put them in charge.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If China's cheating is really a problem, then
Boycotts, Sanctions, and Embargoes are not the solution.

The U.S. can steal Chinese technology just as easily as China can steal U.S. technology.

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

If "an awful lot more" means twice as much, or three times, then it doesn't matter. They still have enough for us to "steal" and benefit from their technology (or "intellectual property"). And in any case, their intellectual property will increase in the future.

Also, might there be a difference between "intellectual property" and "technology"? I don't believe a claim which says China doesn't have a lot of "technology" we could steal. Probably "we" (developed countries) are already doing much, maybe surreptitiously, to gain more knowledge from Chinese technology (analyzing it, picking it apart, etc.). I'm sure we're not so stupid to neglect any opportunity to do this. It is disingenuous for us to whine about the nasty Chinese "cheating" and not playing fair about the secret technologies.

If they have figured out ways to "steal" our intellectual property but we can't figure out how to "steal" theirs, maybe there's something wrong with us. Maybe our companies should hire some Chinese experts to teach us how to "steal" intellectual property, or maybe we can "steal" those instructional materials from them somehow. Or maybe we can figure out how to "steal" from them but have not yet really tried. (Or maybe, more likely, is that we've already done all the above.) It seems the fault lies more on our side than on theirs.

The main rule of thumb is to do whatever benefits consumers, not protect producers.


legitimate need to protect producers, creativity, etc.

Do the intellectual property laws truly reward the more efficient producers and thus benefit consumers?

Not all patents/copyrights/trademarks etc. are beneficial to consumers. So this all needs to be re-examined to make sure the original purpose is really achieved, i.e., the purpose of making the production improve for the benefit of consumers.

And probably the response of boycotts, sanctions, embargoes (BSE) etc. is counterproductive, more harm than good for consumers.

In concrete examples of it, no one has given a good explanation why we don't already have ways to counteract the "cheating" without the need for BSE. Why couldn't the U.S. simply confiscate the "stolen" products and have the property-owner (patent/copyright etc. holder) be compensated, paid their appropriate price. Instead of DESTROYING the confiscated products, these could just be put out for sale in the market, at market price, and the company paid.

What are we doing now, other than confiscating the products and destroying them? This is hardly an appropriate way to fix anything.

How does destroying the "bandit" product make things better? This approach assumes that those illegal products are somehow tainted, poisoned, contaminated, and fit only for extermination. How is this mentality any different than that of those striking auto-workers back in the 1990s who took a sledge hammer to the Japanese imported car? This symbolism doesn't make consumers better off but only worse.


inferior copycat products

How do we know that the counterfeit products are really inferior? Maybe they're just a less costly version which is either just as good, or if not that, they are a little inferior but also the price is lower enough to make it a good deal for consumers.

It's not accurate to say simply that the Asian products are inferior to the U.S. products. Because the truth is that American products are often inferior to the German and Canadian products. It's all relative.

All that really matters is the benefit to consumers, and it should be left to them to decide what is "inferior" or "superior" production. In some cases the higher quality is not worth the extra cost.


Prioritize consumer benefit over nationalism/xenophobia

So it's not clear that this "theft" is really something harmful to consumers. In some cases it's a good deal for consumers, and the domestic producers need to learn how to get the cost down, rather than try to suppress the importation of the cheaper products.

Assuming there's really an intellectual property rights violation problem, the solution to it is not something to interfere with trade or crack down on the "bandit" products etc. Rather, there are ways which ENCOURAGE trade rather than discourage it.

So it's not that there's no problem at all. Rather, it's that anti-trade solutions are always wrong. Reducing trade and scapegoating the foreign production as evil never makes it better but only worse. We can find ways to fix what's wrong without having a crusade against the damn foreigners stealin' our jobs (which really is 90% of what this is about). We first need to get rid of the xenophobic delusionalism, recognize the benefit of more trade, and reject any form of trade barriers, which gives higher priority to prejudice and xenophobia over what's good for consumers.

Meh! What is the consumer benefit? Their costs are high. They don't respect western IP. They threaten us with war all the time. They withhold rare minerals from us when they can. They threaten us with war all the time. Almost every day. They are land disputes with India, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines. And they threaten our most important supply chain cog today, Taiwan, with total destruction. As long as war is avoided, I don't think that we should ban all trade with them. But what is the benefit to us to trade with them?

You mean other than the fact that we gave so much of our production to them? The benefit of the trade is the labor is cheap and expansive. AND, because China attacking the US and visa versa harms each other's economy substantially. Economic dependency is better than MAD.

Complaining about China's fuckery in Asia is fucked up without taking note of our own fuckery in Central America and the Middle East. Yes, we are way more open, less despotic, but we also have a not too long ago history of supporting monsters who did some pretty bad things. Support? I mean help overthrow the other guy to put them in charge.

Chinese labor is no longer cheap. I used to believe in economic dependency, but I'm no longer sure that it helps. It didn't stop the war in Ukraine. China is incredibly dependent upon Taiwan chips, but doesn't seem to matter to them. My evolving position is that we should trade with countries that are economically beneficial for both parties and those that we are friendly with. Friendly countries will respect our laws, and won't destroy our supply chain in order to invade another country.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

China isn't Russia. Putin is a small dog with a big jaw, where China is the notable competition on the planet. Their problem is they've manipulated the system as much as they could and now the Chinese Communist Party is going to need to convince their massive population that they need to stay the course politically during bad times. History isn't in the Communist's favor.

We need to trade with as many nations as possible in order to increase everybody's reliance on everyone else. This doesn't eliminate war or conflict, but helps reduce the benefits of war and conflict. Trading with China has spurred American growth via lower prices. We have benefitted greatly as consumers from the low labor costs (and the outsourcing of the pollution).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's the flow of capital into the area, not whether they are residents or not.

Owner-occupied is inherently self-limiting and doesn't cause nearly the issue that external capital bidding up prices does. And the Chinese market is so utterly insane at present that wildly overpriced US homes would seem a bargain by comparison.

Yes, so the fact that foreign investors—I do not mean to vilify the Chinese—see outrageous prices as bargains — it DOES cause an inflow of capitol into the pockets of the seller and their agents but it artificially inflated the cost of housing and increases the tax burden for locals.

I’ve seen this happen in towns I am familiar with—places that are now facing a labor shortage because workers who want to live/work in the area cannot afford to pay what are now outrageous prices for rent/buy in that area. In full disclosure, I actually was someone who thought about buying my own piece of property in that area, for my own use, so I am aware of just how much those prices have been inflated. And I’m talking in the middle of nowhere in flyover country. The only people who can afford property are those corporations who operate them as businesses—at rates too high for most people.

It's been something of an issue locally in the past--we weren't very happy with all the people moving here from California and bidding up local real estate.

Foreign investors tend to be even more out of touch and less likely to invest their profits in the local area. Instead, they will suck out every dollar they can and spend it elsewhere, caring nothing for the people whose families have lived there for generations abd who want and need that support as they raise their own families and start their own businesses—which would funnel profits/money back into the area.

With the Chinese I think it's more about safety than sucking out every drop, but it's still a problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing of this is improved by means of sanctions, boycotts, and embargoes, but is only made worse. China is less repressive today than it was 60 years ago before trade was opened between China and the West.

I seriously doubt Tibetans or Uighur agree.

You don't have a basis for comparison. 60 years ago is Cultural Revolution time.

I didn’t realize you were a spokesperson for Tibet or the Uighurs.

I'm saying what we are seeing now with them isn't as bad as what all of China saw back then.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If China's cheating is really a problem, then
Boycotts, Sanctions, and Embargoes are not the solution.

The U.S. can steal Chinese technology just as easily as China can steal U.S. technology.

Intellectual property: We have an awful lot more for them to steal than they have for us to steal.

If "an awful lot more" means twice as much, or three times, then it doesn't matter. They still have enough for us to "steal" and benefit from their technology (or "intellectual property"). And in any case, their intellectual property will increase in the future.

Also, might there be a difference between "intellectual property" and "technology"? I don't believe a claim which says China doesn't have a lot of "technology" we could steal. Probably "we" (developed countries) are already doing much, maybe surreptitiously, to gain more knowledge from Chinese technology (analyzing it, picking it apart, etc.). I'm sure we're not so stupid to neglect any opportunity to do this. It is disingenuous for us to whine about the nasty Chinese "cheating" and not playing fair about the secret technologies.

You're assuming their stuff is equally innovative. It's not.

If they have figured out ways to "steal" our intellectual property but we can't figure out how to "steal" theirs, maybe there's something wrong with us. Maybe our companies should hire some Chinese experts to teach us how to "steal" intellectual property, or maybe we can "steal" those instructional materials from them somehow. Or maybe we can figure out how to "steal" from them but have not yet really tried. (Or maybe, more likely, is that we've already done all the above.) It seems the fault lies more on our side than on theirs.

Steal what? It's not like there's much of anything new there to be worth stealing.

The main rule of thumb is to do whatever benefits consumers, not protect producers.

So innovators are to be robbed blind. You'll have a world with no innovations.

legitimate need to protect producers, creativity, etc.

Do the intellectual property laws truly reward the more efficient producers and thus benefit consumers?

Not all patents/copyrights/trademarks etc. are beneficial to consumers. So this all needs to be re-examined to make sure the original purpose is really achieved, i.e., the purpose of making the production improve for the benefit of consumers.

They are beneficial to consumers in that they make companies willing to invest.

Let's consider an example of the problem: There is a drug which very well might make a viable male birth control pill. It has decades of experience with a very good safety profile. Infertility is a known side effect. A drug company could jump straight to testing effectiveness. (Albeit with difficulty--the drug does not stop sperm production, it makes them incapable of fertilizing the egg.) I have been aware of this for many years--yet nobody's tested it. Because the patent long since expired, if they showed it worked they couldn't recoup the research costs. No patent protection = nothing worth patenting.

In concrete examples of it, no one has given a good explanation why we don't already have ways to counteract the "cheating" without the need for BSE. Why couldn't the U.S. simply confiscate the "stolen" products and have the property-owner (patent/copyright etc. holder) be compensated, paid their appropriate price. Instead of DESTROYING the confiscated products, these could just be put out for sale in the market, at market price, and the company paid.

And who is going to buy them if they knew they're fakes?

What are we doing now, other than confiscating the products and destroying them? This is hardly an appropriate way to fix anything.

How does destroying the "bandit" product make things better? This approach assumes that those illegal products are somehow tainted, poisoned, contaminated, and fit only for extermination. How is this mentality any different than that of those striking auto-workers back in the 1990s who took a sledge hammer to the Japanese imported car? This symbolism doesn't make consumers better off but only worse.

Besides, a lot of them don't get caught. Ask the people on Partnair flight 394 what they think of your approach. You'll need a medium.

inferior copycat products

How do we know that the counterfeit products are really inferior? Maybe they're just a less costly version which is either just as good, or if not that, they are a little inferior but also the price is lower enough to make it a good deal for consumers.

It's not accurate to say simply that the Asian products are inferior to the U.S. products. Because the truth is that American products are often inferior to the German and Canadian products. It's all relative.

Realistically, the only way you get consistently good quality out of China is if the American company is very careful to ensure the product remains of high quality. There is a huge culture of corruption over there, even when the original is good they sometimes cut corners down the road.

And a lot of the counterfeit goods that show up on the market are actually the quality control rejects from a foreign company.

All that really matters is the benefit to consumers, and it should be left to them to decide what is "inferior" or "superior" production. In some cases the higher quality is not worth the extra cost.

And nobody cares in the case of paying low for something you know to be of low quality. Harbor Freight can be a decent source if you don't care how well it works.

Prioritize consumer benefit over nationalism/xenophobia

It's not about nationalism or xenophobia! You think I'm xenophobic?!?! But I do know that every trip over there we have a lot of pretty routine stuff in our bags destined for her family because they trust the American stuff a lot more than the stuff in China, even if it's the same brand. If the locals are afraid of it that says a lot.