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Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

No, I think that men should lay off telling women what they can and cannot wear. It has absolutely nothing to do with the woman’s right to political or religious beliefs or the expression of religious and political belief and everything to do with the desire of some men to control women.

In this discussion, it’s Hijabs. In other discussions it’s about whether women can wear certain clothing and not be asking to be raped.

Fuck that shit all to hell.

Men need to start policing their own behavior for a change.
 
Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

This. I am in full agreement with Toni for once, and even in more agreement with Jarhyn making this gender universal.
 
I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

No, I think that men should lay off telling women what they can and cannot wear. It has absolutely nothing to do with the woman’s right to political or religious beliefs or the expression of religious and political belief and everything to do with the desire of some men to co troll women.

Fuck that shit.

But when a garment is defined by it's religious ideology, then wearing it is expressing a religious (and in this case misogynistic) ideology, and critique of wearing it is a critique of that ideological endorsement.
The fact that it's clothing is incidental. What is being critiqued by my argument is their use of the garment endorses such a misogynistic ideology and a custom created via violence against women. Plenty of women (and all Muslim women forced to wear it) share my view. The fact that I am not a woman is of no relevance to the validity of the viewpoint.

By your logic, if any white person critique's Kanye West's statements he has made in support of Trump, then they are nothing but another white person telling black people what to think. That's stupid. They are one person telling another person how their actions are harmful to others, and whether the racial or gender category matches the person they are critiquing is of no relevance.
 
Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

This. I am in full agreement with Toni for once, and even in more agreement with Jarhyn making this gender universal.

Those are absurd points that mean you are not allowed to comment on the ethics of another person's speech or actions, especially if you don't share their race and gender.
 
No, I think that men should lay off telling women what they can and cannot wear. It has absolutely nothing to do with the woman’s right to political or religious beliefs or the expression of religious and political belief and everything to do with the desire of some men to co troll women.

Fuck that shit.

But when a garment is defined by it's religious ideology, then wearing it is expressing a religious (and in this case misogynistic) ideology, and critique of wearing it is a critique of that ideological endorsement.
The fact that it's clothing is incidental. What is being critiqued by my argument is their use of the garment endorses such a misogynistic ideology and a custom created via violence against women. Plenty of women (and all Muslim women forced to wear it) share my view. The fact that I am not a woman is of no relevance to the validity of the viewpoint.

By your logic, if any white person critique's Kanye West's statements he has made in support of Trump, then they are nothing but another white person telling black people what to think. That's stupid. They are one person telling another person how their actions are harmful to others, and whether the racial or gender category matches the person they are critiquing is of no relevance.

But you are not criticizing Muslim men for wearing beards or Jewish men for being circumcised or anybody for wearing a cross or a Star of David or modest dress. You’ve focused on something that some Muslim women wear which is not dissimilar to what day, some old Italian or Greek grandmothers might wear. You are not criticizing Hindu men for their beards or their turbans. You are specifically targeting some Muslim women and inserting your own beliefs about what their hijabs mean and how they should act.
 
In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

Idiotic false equivalence.

No. Idiotic false equivalence would be equating it to blackface or a t-shirt that says "I hate Ni**ers", both of which are clear intent of being offensive and bigoted (well the latter moreso than the former). Covering your hair for personal modesty isn't. A muslima may be covering her hair for a variety of reasons, including both modesty and dedication to tradition and respect for her community and elders etc. It doesn't necessarily mean she is making a statement against women and for their repression.

Women everywhere, regardless of law choose to cover their breasts most of the time.

That hasn't always been true, and though definitely common to many cultures that isnt universally true even today. Why do you think women feel the need to cover their chests, especially where the law and culture declare it indecent? You don't think that may have something to do with them being oppressed into doing so when some of them may like to go topless? The law here changed because some women actually decided to challenge the law here against them going topless on a hot day and the law was found unconstitutional precisely because it is repressive.

Unless you want to claim that Islamic women are genetically determined to prefer to do something that all other women are not, then it is clearly a case of cultural force and coercion, and proves if there was no such coercion, almost none of the women currently "choosing" to wear one would choose it.

There is certainly a lot of cultural influence involved, in both the case of wearing hajib and in the case of not going topless. There is nothing genetic pushing all women to go either way on either matter.

The custom and "culture" would not exist w/o the continued use of violence to forces and association between it and being an Islamic woman. So, there is no way to practice that aspect of their culture without inherently endorsing that violence that created and sustains it as part of the culture.

Again, that also applies to other "decency" laws, only differing in context and degree. Freedom and modesty arguments for either choice can be made.

A very interesting conversation happens when you put these two extremes together for a conversation between a Muslim and a nudist on this topic. You may want to hear both out, and you may be surprised when you hear yourself in both towards the other.
 
It is not about telling women what the should wear as women or b/c they are women. It's about calling out the endorsement of unethical customs built upon oppressive violence. If a bunch of men went around wearing t-shirts saying "I support the hijab", the same critique would apply. The only reason the critique of wearing the hijab applies exclusively to women is that centuries of violent oppression created the custom of exclusively women wearing it. To turn around and say that criticizing the promotion of this violent sexist custom and thus it's inherent violent roots is itself "sexist" just b/c it's directed at a garment worn by women due to that sexism is absurd, and to pretend it is is equivalent to the violent oppression that created it as a customary garment for women is beyond absurd.

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Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

This. I am in full agreement with Toni for once, and even in more agreement with Jarhyn making this gender universal.

Those are absurd points that mean you are not allowed to comment on the ethics of another person's speech or actions, especially if you don't share their race and gender.

Bullshit. I would be equally wrong and equally racist if I were to demand that Muslim women not wear hijabs it to try to tell them what they can and cannot do with regards to their dress and expression of religious beliefs.

The fact that you are specifically targeting women ads a layer of misogyny to the whole bigotry pie.
 
It is not about telling women what the should wear as women or b/c they are women. It's about calling out the endorsement of unethical customs built upon oppressive violence. If a bunch of men went around wearing t-shirts saying "I support the hijab", the same critique would apply. The only reason the critique of wearing the hijab applies exclusively to women is that centuries of violent oppression created the custom of exclusively women wearing it. To turn around and say that criticizing the promotion of this violent sexist custom and thus it's inherent violent roots is itself "sexist" just b/c it's directed at a garment worn by women due to that sexism is absurd, and to pretend it is is equivalent to the violent oppression that created it as a customary garment for women is beyond absurd.

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Given that the sole target of your rant is Muslim women who, btw, are also the only ones who would face negative consequences for doing what you, Oh White Man! tell than that they should do completely belies your so called ethical arguments.
 
Toni, do you realize that the OP could just as easily be written by a woman and that there are many women who agree with it?

Is your only dismissal of it your adhom accusing ron of misogyny, or do you also agree with me and Jarhyn that people should generally be allowed to wear what they want?
 
Toni, do you realize that the OP could just as easily be written by a woman and that there are many women who agree with it?

Is your only dismissal of it your adhom accusing ron of misogyny, or do you also agree with me and Jarhyn that people should generally be allowed to wear what they want?

My belief that people should be allowed to wear what they want likely predates your birth and Jarhyn’s.

IMO, ron’s opinions about hijabs and the fact that he targets only women and only women who are most likely dark skinned add layers of misogyny and racism to his objections.
 
Women should NOT be forcibly prevented from wearing a hijab, but they they should not celebrated for doing so, and it should be criticized for the way such a choice promotes and endorses a custom that only exists b/c of historical and continued violent oppression of women.

I tend to agree, on the whole. Personally I would just add that women should not be criticised or discriminated against merely for wearing it. Otherwise I think responses could cross a line into intolerance. The valid point (or general criticism) about how it effectively endorses oppression of women would be slightly separate to that, imo. In other words, that point could still be made.

It's a tricky issue.
 
IMO, ron’s opinions about hijabs and the fact that he targets only women and only women who are most likely dark skinned add layers of misogyny and racism to his objections.

No, you read that in. There is absolutely no reason why a woman or a non-white person could have exactly the view he wrote in the OP. Equating women with pro-hajib or a particular race with a religious view would in fact be what's sexist/racist.

In fact there are numerous self described feminists who take that view and want to ban the islamic head coverings, stating as he does that it is oppressive. And he's not wrong that for some women wearing it, it actually is forced on them.
 
IMO, ron’s opinions about hijabs and the fact that he targets only women and only women who are most likely dark skinned add layers of misogyny and racism to his objections.

No, you read that in. There is absolutely no reason why a woman or a non-white person could have exactly the view he wrote in the OP. Equating women with pro-hajib or a particular race with a religious view would in fact be what's sexist/racist.

In fact there are numerous self described feminists who take that view and want to ban the islamic head coverings, stating as he does that it is oppressive. And he's not wrong that for some women wearing it, it actually is forced on them.

No. Whether or not a woman or a person of color could hold a position similar to Ron’s is immaterial. He does not state a general principle of people being allowed to wear what they want. He specifically calls for women who wear hijabs to be criticized.

He makes no mention of any article of clothing worn by men or other religions as being objects of derision or open to criticism. Many observant Jews choose to wear stars of David or yarmulkes although Jews were forced to wear stars of David on their clothing to identify them as Jews in order to target them for repression and worse.

Only women and only certain women are targeted by Ron.
 
No. Idiotic false equivalence would be equating it to blackface or a t-shirt that says "I hate Ni**ers", both of which are clear intent of being offensive and bigoted (well the latter moreso than the former).

I didn't equate them. I used them to point out the absurdity of claims that what people wear has nothing to do with ethical actions or endorsing immoral ideologies.

People wear black face without trying to be offensive, and a person can just sincerely hate Ni&&ers and be expressing this belief without trying to offend. Yes, they inherently endorse bigotry and are inherently offensive, just like the practice of wearing a hijab endorses sexism and offend the millions of women who continue to be violently forced to wear them. This is the same violence of past centuries that created it as a custom which some women continue to chose to follow. They are all actions in which a person is choosing to wear something that only became an aspect of culture out of bigotry and oppression, and that oppression they reflect still continues, so no matter what the intent, to wear them is harmfully endorsing those practices, especially if the intent is to endorse Islam, which means it is being worn to specially to follow a custom created by violent oppression.

Covering your hair for personal modesty isn't. A muslima may be covering her hair for a variety of reasons, including both modesty and dedication to tradition and respect for her community and elders etc. It doesn't necessarily mean she is making a statement against women and for their repression.

That tradition only exists due to violent oppression that forced it on women, and those elders who it "respects" are the violent misogynists who created and reinforced it. Thus, it inherently does make a statement in favor of that oppression, whether she realizes it or not, just like black face makes a racist statement whether it's wearer intends it or not. It doesn't make the wearer a bad person, it just makes them a promoter of bad things for which they should be critiqued and discouraged from doing.

Women everywhere, regardless of law choose to cover their breasts most of the time.

That hasn't always been true, and though definitely common to many cultures that isnt universally true even today. Why do you think women feel the need to cover their chests, especially where the law and culture declare it indecent? You don't think that may have something to do with them being oppressed into doing so when some of them may like to go topless? The law here changed because some women actually decided to challenge the law here against them going topless on a hot day and the law was found unconstitutional precisely because it is repressive.

And yet, even there and other places where women can go topless, they don't do so 99% of the time. That's b/c there are intrinsic personal benefits and desires to covering their breasts. That is what makes it fundamentally different that the practice of always wearing a hijab in public and around men, which women only do when socialized in an ideology built upon violent repression of women.
If we were talking about women occassionally wearing a general head scarf when the weather and particular context made it something many women would naturally choose, then there would be a valid comparison. But we aren't. We are talking about women always wearing it in public and around men as part of a religious tradition built up violence.

Unless you want to claim that Islamic women are genetically determined to prefer to do something that all other women are not, then it is clearly a case of cultural force and coercion, and proves if there was no such coercion, almost none of the women currently "choosing" to wear one would choose it.

There is certainly a lot of cultural influence involved, in both the case of wearing hajib and in the case of not going topless. There is nothing genetic pushing all women to go either way on either matter.

The extremely strong negative correlation between legal and cultural women's equality/rights and them wearing a hijab shows that the practice is purely a product of violent religious coercion and that w/o such coercion the concept of a hijab would not even exist. It is not a coincidence that it remains a dominant custom only in countries where a violently misogynistic religion completely controls society, or that those women in free societies who still "choose" it are either descended from such countries or practice the religion that rules those countries. Without such sexist coercion, head scarves would just be something that women occassionally putting on a head scarf when it was cold or as an fashion accessory, but no sense of cultural identity wrapped up in it.

There is no such extreme correlation between nudity and nudity laws. Nudity laws vary greatly from country to country, and yet the practice of nudity varies little, with 99.9% of women choosing to not be nude most of the time. Wearing clothes isn't a statement endorsing anti-nudity laws b/c most people wear clothes even when they do not support an ideology that says nude people should be punished. In contrast, the vast majority of people who wear a hijab do so out of adherence to a religious custom that was created via violent control of women. To endorse Islam in general is to endorse misogyny, just as it is with Christianity. But to endorse it via the specific practice of a hijab is even more directly to endorse that misogyny, even if the wearer just thinks they are following their culture without thought to what the culture really represents and how it came to be.
 
Bullshit. I would be equally wrong and equally racist if I were to demand that Muslim women
For the 1000,000th time:

MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!
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And again, for those hard of reading.
DelayedUnsightlyHamster-size_restricted.gif
MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!
 
He makes no mention of any article of clothing worn by men or other religions as being objects of derision or open to criticism. Many observant Jews choose to wear stars of David or yarmulkes although Jews were forced to wear stars of David on their clothing to identify them as Jews in order to target them for repression and worse.

Not mentioning something and not agreeing with something are not the same . Instead of accusing him of only caring when its women involved, you could ask him if he applies this sort of thing to men and to a broader spectrum than this one case. Instead you have chosen to leap to conclusions and personal accusations without any grounding.
 
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I didn't equate them. I used them to point out the absurdity of claims that what people wear has nothing to do with ethical actions or endorsing immoral ideologies.

And I didn't equate going topless to wearing a hajib. I used the example to point out that modesty is a thing, including I presume you, actually do also act on. Had you merely said that repression is ONE reason that SOME muslimas wear hajib, and not that wearing it is them making a statement in support of oppression of women, then I'd agree with you.

This is the same violence of past centuries that created it as a custom which some women continue to chose to follow. They are all actions in which a person is choosing to wear something that only became an aspect of culture out of bigotry and oppression, and that oppression they reflect still continues, so no matter what the intent, to wear them is harmfully endorsing those practices, especially if the intent is to endorse Islam, which means it is being worn to specially to follow a custom created by violent oppression.

That tradition only exists due to violent oppression that forced it on women, and those elders who it "respects" are the violent misogynists who created and reinforced it. Thus, it inherently does make a statement in favor of that oppression, whether she realizes it or not, just like black face makes a racist statement whether it's wearer intends it or not. It doesn't make the wearer a bad person, it just makes them a promoter of bad things for which they should be critiqued and discouraged from doing.

And you think demanding women cover their chests arose somehow other than by societies in which men were violent and possessive of women demanded it and baked it into culture? It wasn't uncommon for tribal african women or aboriginies and others from hot climates to go topless without the taboo. It isn't genetic.

And yet, even there and other places where women can go topless, they don't do so 99% of the time. That's b/c there are intrinsic personal benefits and desires to covering their breasts.

Its partly because of personal modesty, party because of sanitation and body heat concerns, and very much partly because of social taboo. Social taboo that has become extremely widespread to the point that you may think it universal and somehow natural.

If we were talking about women occassionally wearing a general head scarf when the weather and particular context made it something many women would naturally choose, then there would be a valid comparison. But we aren't. We are talking about women always wearing it in public and around men as part of a religious tradition built up violence.

Often because they feel a sense of modesty, just as women feel a sense of modesty to not go topless. There is a very strong social taboo in both cases.

The extremely strong negative correlation between legal and cultural women's equality/rights and them wearing a hijab shows that the practice is purely a product of violent religious coercion and that w/o such coercion the concept of a hijab would not even exist.

That's false. Hajib predates Islam. It was merely a head covering at the time the religion came to be and people felt that women's hair, much like women's breasts, are indicators of immodesty. Strong and repressive controls exist in the middle east against not wearing hajib, and strong repressive controls exist in many western nations, I'm guessing including yours, against women going topless.

There is no such extreme correlation between nudity and nudity laws. Nudity laws vary greatly from country to country, and yet the practice of nudity varies little, with 99.9% of women choosing to not be nude most of the time.

Anti-nudity is a more engrained and widespread social taboo.

Wearing clothes isn't a statement endorsing anti-nudity laws b/c most people wear clothes even when they do not support an ideology that says nude people should be punished.

I know muslima who are pretty liberal but still choose to wear hajib. They dont support the view that anybody anywhere should be punished for wearing it. Just because they are "muslim" doens't mean they hold all the same views as others who call themselves "muslim". Some of them are mostly cultural muslims, and quite liberal in politics. I've even known some muslima strippers (who obviously didn't wear hajib).
 
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