Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

[Toni]

Bullshit. I would be equally wrong and equally racist if I were to demand that Muslim women

For the 1000,000th time:

MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!
View attachment 24347

And again, for those hard of reading.
View attachment 24348
MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!

99.9% of the time Americans object to women wearing hijabs they also equate being Muslim with being not white.

One does not have to specify race to be racist.

When someone decries the display of a religious article of clothing worn primarily by people with not-white skin and do not decry the wearing of religious articles of clothing by people with white colored skin, then it certainly does seem to indicate that the problem isn't the article of clothing or that it is associated with a religion but that the article of clothing is associated with not white skin.

 

[Toni]

He makes no mention of any article of clothing worn by men or other religions as being objects of derision or open to criticism. Many observant Jews choose to wear stars of David or yarmulkes although Jews were forced to wear stars of David on their clothing to identify them as Jews in order to target them for repression and worse.

Not mentioning something and not agreeing with something are not the same . Instead of accusing him of only caring when its women involved, you could ask him if he applies this sort of thing to men and to a broader spectrum than this one case. Instead you have chosen to leap to conclusions and personal accusations without any grounding.

Sure. Or he could have chosen to clarify his position at any point in time, demonstrating that he is equally opposed to religious items worn primarily by males and/or by white people. Instead he chose to double down.

I know that you are still trying to reconcile yourself and your world view with the fact that you actually agreed with me but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all reason.

 

[Metaphor]

Bullshit. I would be equally wrong and equally racist if I were to demand that Muslim women

For the 1000,000th time:

MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!
View attachment 24347

And again, for those hard of reading.
View attachment 24348
MUSLIM IS NOT A RACE!!!!

99.9% of the time Americans objecting to women wearing hijabs also equate being Muslim with being not white.

One does not have to specify race to be racist.

When someone decries the display of a religious article of clothing worn primarily by people with not-white skin and do not decry the wearing of religious articles of clothing by people with white colored skin, then it certainly does seem to indicate that the problem isn't the article of clothing or that it is associated with a religion but that the article of clothing is associated with not white skin.

It indicates nothing of the kind.

Why are people like you so desperate to equate criticism of religion with racism?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

99.9% of the time Americans object to women wearing hijabs they also equate being Muslim with being not white.

There is zero indication that ron was doing that in his OP. YOU are the one who did that in your response. If you don't want people to be racist, maybe don't project your own racist expectations upon them?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure. Or he could have chosen to clarify his position at any point in time, demonstrating that he is equally opposed to religious items worn primarily by males and/or by white people. Instead he chose to double down.

Hardly. You attacked him with a slanderous accusation with no basis to do so. Did you expect him to react positively to that?

I know that you are still trying to reconcile yourself and your world view with the fact that you actually agreed with me but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all reason.

I am still unsure if I agree with more than that one sentence from you. You seem to care because you are on your everything is sexist schtick, whereas I am coming from this from a more universal perspective.

 

[Derec]

99.9% of the time Americans object to women wearing hijabs they also equate being Muslim with being not white.

From my experience, the ones who automatically impute non-white status to Muslims are people like you who equate opposition to Islam with "racism".

One does not have to specify race to be racist.

To be racist one has to think a certain way about a race of people. A religion is a set of ideas and practices. It is not a race, as people of any race can be Muslim and people of any race can renounce Islam (and all its works).

When someone decries the display of a religious article of clothing worn primarily by people with not-white skin and do not decry the wearing of religious articles of clothing by people with white colored skin,

Are people who object to hijabs or niqabs on people with "non-white skin" fine with hijabs or niqabs on people with "white skin"? I have never encountered anybody advancing such a position.
And by the way, Arabs are classified as white and many have pretty light skin, and some are even blonde/blue-eyed.

 

[Toni]

Sure. Or he could have chosen to clarify his position at any point in time, demonstrating that he is equally opposed to religious items worn primarily by males and/or by white people. Instead he chose to double down.

Hardly. You attacked him with a slanderous accusation with no basis to do so. Did you expect him to react positively to that?

You mean the slanderous accusation you initially agreed with but then couldn't live with the fact that you agreed with me so you decided to pick a fight with me because bros before.....Toni?

This is you trying to pick a fight with me.

Have at it but I warn you: you're playing with yourself.

I know that you are still trying to reconcile yourself and your world view with the fact that you actually agreed with me but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all reason.

I am still unsure if I agree with more than that one sentence from you. You seem to care because you are on your everything is sexist schtick, whereas I am coming from this from a more universal perspective.

Nope. I don't care in the least about whether you agree with me or do not. You are the one who remarked on it up thread. I learned a long time ago to think for myself.

I'm not sure where you get this 'everything is sexist schtict' bit but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Whatevs, babe.

 

[Toni]

99.9% of the time Americans objecting to women wearing hijabs also equate being Muslim with being not white.

One does not have to specify race to be racist.

When someone decries the display of a religious article of clothing worn primarily by people with not-white skin and do not decry the wearing of religious articles of clothing by people with white colored skin, then it certainly does seem to indicate that the problem isn't the article of clothing or that it is associated with a religion but that the article of clothing is associated with not white skin.

It indicates nothing of the kind.

Why are people like you so desperate to equate criticism of religion with racism?

What do you mean 'people like me?'

When people only criticize followers of a religion when those people are predominately not white it seems kind of racist to me.
When people criticize only (some) female members of a religion for their garments, it seems kind of sexist to me.

It's funny. IMO, ron's remarks betray a certain level of racism and a certain level of sexism. I've explained why his posts in this thread seem that way to me.

Jolly agreed with me initially and is now trying to outdo himself in each post explaining how he doesn't really agree with me and that I think everything is sexist. You and Derec are trying to tell me that I see racism where there is none.



'K.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Toni]

From my experience, the ones who automatically impute non-white status to Muslims are people like you who equate opposition to Islam with "racism".

We have different experiences.

To be racist one has to think a certain way about a race of people. A religion is a set of ideas and practices. It is not a race, as people of any race can be Muslim and people of any race can renounce Islam (and all its works).

This is true. However, when one attacks the religious expression of only one religious practice by only one gender and where that person is generally not white, it does smack of racism and sexism.

When someone decries the display of a religious article of clothing worn primarily by people with not-white skin and do not decry the wearing of religious articles of clothing by people with white colored skin,

Are people who object to hijabs or niqabs on people with "non-white skin" fine with hijabs or niqabs on people with "white skin"? I have never encountered anybody advancing such a position.
And by the way, Arabs are classified as white and many have pretty light skin, and some are even blonde/blue-eyed.

Trust me, I know that Arabs are classified as white and I know that generally, Arabs consider themselves white. I also know that in many parts of the US, Arabs are not considered white and until fairly recently, and still, in some circles, neither are Jews and Italians are a little bit iffy, especially if they are Catholic. I am quite aware that the followers of Islam are Arab, Persian, Asian, White, Black. In fact, I have Muslim friends from each of those groups.

 

[Metaphor]

What do you mean 'people like me?'

I mean people who think like you.

When people only criticize followers of a religion when those people are predominately not white it seems kind of racist to me.

Why does it seem like that? What do you think "racism" is?

When people criticize only (some) female members of a religion for their garments, it seems kind of sexist to me.

Why does it seem sexist to you? Are you incapable of understanding the argument?

It's funny. IMO, ron's remarks betray a certain level of racism and a certain level of sexism. I've explained why his posts in this thread seem that way to me.

Jolly agreed with me initially and is now trying to outdo himself in each post explaining how he doesn't really agree with me and that I think everything is sexist. You and Derec are trying to tell me that I see racism where there is none.

You see what you want to see. For reasons unknown to me, you appear to want to defend Islam, which is a set of ideas, by imagining that the people who criticise it really object to something else.

You don't have any evidence for this, but you do have your own prejudice. But even if you did have evidence, claiming"racist" is not addressing an argument. It's a mindless shut down tactic that will lose effectiveness over time.

 

[Toni]

I mean people who think like you.



Why does it seem like that? What do you think "racism" is?

When people criticize only (some) female members of a religion for their garments, it seems kind of sexist to me.

Why does it seem sexist to you? Are you incapable of understanding the argument?

It's funny. IMO, ron's remarks betray a certain level of racism and a certain level of sexism. I've explained why his posts in this thread seem that way to me.

Jolly agreed with me initially and is now trying to outdo himself in each post explaining how he doesn't really agree with me and that I think everything is sexist. You and Derec are trying to tell me that I see racism where there is none.

You see what you want to see. For reasons unknown to me, you appear to want to defend Islam, which is a set of ideas, by imagining that the people who criticise it really object to something else.

You don't have any evidence for this, but you do have your own prejudice. But even if you did have evidence, claiming"racist" is not addressing an argument. It's a mindless shut down tactic that will lose effectiveness over time.

I think you also see what you want to see. We all do to a certain extent.

I’ve rxolained multiple times in this thread exactly why I see some remarks as having some racism or sexism at the core. To summarize: there is no balance—only a tradition for some Muslim women is under attack here—and remains under attack even as Ron acknowledges the reasons for wearing hijab(although he conveniently glosses over the actual danger that some women would face for abandoning it.). There is no question in of why some women deliberately choose to wear the hijab or even a suggestion that women would better serve their community by abandoning the hijab. No: they’re wrong and they seem to be wrong in ron’s eyes because he disagrees with the tradition. I think—and yes, it’s my own speculation—that it’s easier for rob to take that position because hijab wearing Muslim women are other to him: female, Muslim, mostly not white. Other religious apparel or symbols are not similarly criticized, although certainly some are designed specifically to control people.

No one else has to agree with me.

I think that one or two are only arguing against my position because it’s my position. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You mean the slanderous accusation you initially agreed with

I agreed with you that women should not be ordered what they must wear, and even moreso with Jarhyn who wrote that in a universal way not just restricted to women. If did not agree with you that Ron wrote anything misogynist. That was purely your own rather rude accusation against him.

This is you trying to pick a fight with me.

No. This is you trying to pick a fight with imagined misogynists instead of addressing the topic or the OP as I and others have. You see it as sexist and racist because that's your lense and that's your thing. That's what you always do in these message boards anyway.

I'm not sure where you get this 'everything is sexist schtict' bit but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You responded to a post having zero to do with misogyny by calling ron a misogynist as a adhom instead of addressing what he actually wrote. Still can't see it eh?

I think that one or two are only arguing against my position because it’s my position. But that’s just my opinion.

I think you are wrong. I for one was happy to be able to agree with you on something. And then you had to turn it around into an adhom against the writer instead of a critique of what was written.

 

[Metaphor]

I think you also see what you want to see. We all do to a certain extent.

I’ve rxolained multiple times in this thread exactly why I see some remarks as having some racism or sexism at the core.

At the "core"? Tell me, if the least sexist person you know had made the exact same argument, would you then address the argument?

To summarize: there is no balance—only a tradition for some Muslim women is under attack here—and remains under attack even as Ron acknowledges the reasons for wearing hijab(although he conveniently glosses over the actual danger that some women would face for abandoning it.).

Since when was "balance" some kind of morally relevant point?

When feminists advocate for women, do you decry their lack of 'balance' in not also advocating for men? Or do you consider the issue at hand on its own merits? When somebody posts an article about teenage girls experience of sexual harassment, do you throw your hands up in the air and ask for balance? Who asked the teenage boys their experience? I know that you don't because you have commented on an article exactly like that.

There is no question in of why some women deliberately choose to wear the hijab or even a suggestion that women would better serve their community by abandoning the hijab. No: they’re wrong and they seem to be wrong in ron’s eyes because he disagrees with the tradition. I think—and yes, it’s my own speculation—that it’s easier for rob to take that position because hijab wearing Muslim women are other to him: female, Muslim, mostly not white. Other religious apparel or symbols are not similarly criticized, although certainly some are designed specifically to control people.

Why should he criticise them? Is he required to? Certainly it's the case that if other apparel fit the same circumstances that he has made about hijab, and these arguments were put to him, but he didn't want to criticise the wearers of those garments, that might be hypocrisy, but silence on the other points is not hypocrisy.

No one else has to agree with me.

I think that one or two are only arguing against my position because it’s my position. But that’s just my opinion.

I think the hijab is stupid and there's nothing immodest about showing one's face or hair.

It's also the case that many women are forced to wear it, either by legal or physical coercion, or by complete familial control.

Now, as for ron's argument, I'm not sure I really agree that they should be criticised for wearing it because some other people are forced to wear it. I think that puts a special obligation on women because of what other people have done, and I am sick and tired of the idea that its okay to impose special obligations upon genders or races due to what other people have done.

 

[Toni]

I agreed with you that women should not be ordered what they must wear, and even moreso with Jarhyn who wrote that in a universal way not just restricted to women. If did not agree with you that Ron wrote anything misogynist. That was purely your own rather rude accusation against him.



No. This is you trying to pick a fight with imagined misogynists instead of addressing the topic or the OP as I and others have. You see it as sexist and racist because that's your lense and that's your thing. That's what you always do in these message boards anyway.

I'm not sure where you get this 'everything is sexist schtict' bit but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You responded to a post having zero to do with misogyny by calling ron a misogynist as a adhom instead of addressing what he actually wrote. Still can't see it eh?

I think that one or two are only arguing against my position because it’s my position. But that’s just my opinion.

I think you are wrong. I for one was happy to be able to agree with you on something. And then you had to turn it around into an adhom against the writer instead of a critique of what was written.

Nope. I said that the fact that ron only targeted Muslim women added layers of misogyny and racism to his argument. This is not the same thing as calling him a misgynist or a racist. YOU have claimed repeatedly that I did that, but that's only in your mind, not in actually what I wrote.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Now, as for ron's argument, I'm not sure I really agree that they should be criticised for wearing it because some other people are forced to wear it. I think that puts a special obligation on women because of what other people have done, and I am sick and tired of the idea that its okay to impose special obligations upon genders or races due to what other people have done.

I agree with this. people should be allowed to wear what they want to wear. Women should be allowed to wear hajib if they do so by their own free choice, which many do for the sake of their own modesty. They should not be forced to wear it. The choice should be entirely their own. That said, i can see where Ron is coming from on this and it isn't misogyny.

 

[laughing dog]

No. This is you trying to pick a fight with imagined misogynists instead of addressing the topic or the OP as I and others have.

That is blatantly false, Toni addressed the OP before you and you even agreed with her.

In an attempt to steer the discussion away from yhe gang attack and back towards the OP, I have a question - who really gives a flying fuck what women or men freely choose to wear?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Nope. I said that the fact that ron only targeted Muslim women added layers of misogyny and racism to his argument.

I stand corrected. He isnt a racist or misogynist. He just "adds layers of racism and misogyny". Alrighty then.

Metaphor addressed that well above. He made one post about a specific topic, and instead of addressing that topic, you judge him as adding "layers of misogyny and racism" for not also speaking on related topics. That's a logic fail and a clear demonstration of your own lens rather than his.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

to wear?

Evidently Ron does. Did you miss the OP while reading the OP?

 

[laughing dog]

to wear?

Evidently Ron does. Are you so dense that you missed the OP while reading the OP?

Maybe, but not as dense as anyone who missed the obvious point that this topic is realky too trivial to be on the radar.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Yet apparently not too trivial for you to show up and post in this thread about it. Very good contribution you make too.