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"Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection....

i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross. If you believe that all matter is evil, the idea that being bodily resurrected is superior to becoming pure spirit would be an alien and alienating thought. Jesus had returned to the "fullness", and no longer had need of the wicked cage that is flesh.

I don't know what people you are referring to, but all four Gospel writers refer to a bodily resurrection of Christ.
Do they? I think the ends of the Gospels make a lot more sense if you read it as a series of visions and apparitions specifically to his followers, rather than a zombie wandering around the Judean countryside three days after his execution. Where is your textual evidence to the contrary? Yes, he eats a few times, and yes, Thomas touches him physically (though for some reason he doesn't want Mary to do likewise) but one could easily have visions of a person eating. I think the Gospels are portraying the resurrected Jesus as being something other than just a resuscitated body. Note that only his followers see him at all. If the Gospel writers were anxious to prove that Jesus had a physical form, shouldn't they have included a passage where he appears to Pontius Pilate, or just goes on a walk through downtown Jerusalem? Why so coy with his appearances? Also note that Mark, the earliest Gospel, fails to mention the ressurrection at all, yet still clearly portrays Jesus as an important figure? If the resurrection was what made Jesus important, why on earth would you write an entire biography that fails to mention it?


Also, my critique of the spiritual-resurrection doctrine is not merely "modernist" but is logically valid for all times. I'm not sure what you mean by "transcended materiality," but we read that Christ's lifeless body was taken down from the cross and entombed. To do so would be very difficult if it had departed the material world. Besides, we read that Jesus and his closest followers preached much "alien and alienating thought" so I see no reason why they could not entertain thoughts of a bodily death and resurrection of Christ. Finally, I know of no evidence that Christ or the early Christian sect thought that "all matter is evil."
The perspective of a lot of people at the time was that the material realm was something of an illusion, real perhaps but not the ultimate reality. For Jesus to be only a body would be tantamount, from a Neoplatonic perspective, of confining him only to the lower realm. Within the perspective of philosophers of the day, the Fullness contains the material but it isn't bound by it. If Jesus is essentially a God, and resides in the domain of a god, that domain is the realm of the pure Ideal, not just the physical. I reference modernism, because your own assumptions seem much more reflective of modernist philosophy, to wit, the material realm is the "truly real", and empirical testing or objectively accessible Reason the only means of determining the real. Your "logically valid for all times". Am I correct in guessing that you found Plato's Idealist philosophy a bit confusing and off-putting when you encountered it in school? And that you find postmodernist philosophy similarly frustrating now? You are very much a child of modernist thought. We simply don't think of things the same way these days that people did when the theology of resurrection was first being built, and applying modern standards to ancient contexts can only lead to confusion.
 
.....I note that one of the characters' proposed explanations was that Jesus might be Elijah. If you believe the Hebrew Scriptures, then you wouldn't call that a physical resuscitation either, as Elijah never died in the first place.
Like being Elijah, I don't think Jesus being John the Baptist involved zombies either. (maybe just a transference of a "soul"...) Though in the case of easter the original body was gone - I guess those atoms were supposedly used to make the resurrected body.... I wonder what Spong, etc, believe happened to Jesus' body - did it disappear, was stolen or is still there....?
Spong and King both believed in the "new life" promised by Christ, they just don't think of that life as being defined as new air getting stuffed into the same old meat sack.
Yeah it isn't scientific....
 
Spong surely would not be surprised to hear that someone had dug up Jesus' body somewhere. I don't know enough about King's philosophy. The ancient Christians had a wide variety of beliefs on the question.
 
. Elsewhere in the same letter, he insists that his vision of Christ on the road to Emmaeus elevates him to the same status as the disciples. Why? Why would having a vision of the risen Christ be the equivalent of seeing him "in the flesh"?
I presume you mean road to Damascus rather than Emmaus? </nitpick>
 
Do they? I think the ends of the Gospels make a lot more sense if you read it as a series of visions and apparitions specifically to his followers, rather than a zombie wandering around the Judean countryside three days after his execution. Where is your textual evidence to the contrary? Yes, he eats a few times, and yes, Thomas touches him physically (though for some reason he doesn't want Mary to do likewise) but one could easily have visions of a person eating. I think the Gospels are portraying the resurrected Jesus as being something other than just a resuscitated body. Note that only his followers see him at all. If the Gospel writers were anxious to prove that Jesus had a physical form, shouldn't they have included a passage where he appears to Pontius Pilate, or just goes on a walk through downtown Jerusalem? Why so coy with his appearances? Also note that Mark, the earliest Gospel, fails to mention the ressurrection at all, yet still clearly portrays Jesus as an important figure? If the resurrection was what made Jesus important, why on earth would you write an entire biography that fails to mention it?
Yes. All four Gospels including Mark mention a physical resurrection.
A zombie-Jesus fits the resurrection accounts well.
Look at the accounts to see that I am, of course, right.
If you wish to explain away the accounts of a physical Jesus post-resurrection as mere visions, then you could explain away his appearances before his resurrection as mere visions too.
We don't know who all the people who we are told could have seen the risen Jesus were, so it's not warranted to conclude we are being told only his followers saw him at that time.
The most likely reason the Gospel writers don't specify unbelievers who saw Jesus is that the Gospel writers were making up the resurrection accounts.
The perspective of a lot of people at the time was that the material realm was something of an illusion, real perhaps but not the ultimate reality. For Jesus to be only a body would be tantamount, from a Neoplatonic perspective, of confining him only to the lower realm. Within the perspective of philosophers of the day, the Fullness contains the material but it isn't bound by it. If Jesus is essentially a God, and resides in the domain of a god, that domain is the realm of the pure Ideal, not just the physical. I reference modernism, because your own assumptions seem much more reflective of modernist philosophy, to wit, the material realm is the "truly real", and empirical testing or objectively accessible Reason the only means of determining the real. Your "logically valid for all times". Am I correct in guessing that you found Plato's Idealist philosophy a bit confusing and off-putting when you encountered it in school? And that you find postmodernist philosophy similarly frustrating now? You are very much a child of modernist thought. We simply don't think of things the same way these days that people did when the theology of resurrection was first being built, and applying modern standards to ancient contexts can only lead to confusion.
I don't think the early Christian sect was too concerned with conforming to a "Neoplatonic perspective" so they wouldn't bother doing so.
My assumptions rest on the logic that if two explanations are available for a claim, then choose the explanation with the fewer assumptions. We know that the Gospel writers wrote of a bodily resurrection, but we don't know if they thought it was merely spiritual. The explanation that Jesus was being claimed to have risen bodily has the fewer assumptions, so I choose it as the explanation that's more likely correct.
I didn't study Plato extensively in school.
I don't find any philosophy frustrating.
No matter how ancient or modern anybody is, death and physical bodies have always been with us. I see no reason, then, to conclude that people of the past could not necessarily have seen a resurrection as physical.
 
Yes. All four Gospels including Mark mention a physical resurrection.
A zombie-Jesus fits the resurrection accounts well.
I think in every sighting of Jesus after his death it is just for short amounts of time - I think that is most compatible with Jesus being a vision or mistaken identity (like the sighting with the 6000). If he was a normal person I thought he would have slept at places, etc.
John 21:14
This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
That suggests relatively short amounts of time.... if he was a zombie with a continuous existence that would mean he physically walks away a lot then walks back....
 
Yes. All four Gospels including Mark mention a physical resurrection.
A zombie-Jesus fits the resurrection accounts well.
I think in every sighting of Jesus after his death it is just for short amounts of time - I think that is most compatible with Jesus being a vision or mistaken identity (like the sighting with the 6000). If he was a normal person I thought he would have slept at places, etc.
John 21:14
This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
That suggests relatively short amounts of time.... if he was a zombie with a continuous existence that would mean he physically walks away a lot then walks back....
I'm not saying that the reported sightings of Jesus were not merely visions or hallucinations but that the Gospel writers believed that some people at least saw Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead. Visions were a dime per dozen those days, and an actual physical resurrection would stand out as far more impressive. Besides, prior to Jesus' resurrection he engaged in some stunts that were much like what he is said to have done when resurrected. Was he merely a spirit or immaterial then? Would you argue that a physical Jesus could not have walked on water and that the Gospel writers were portraying him as a spirit at that time?
 
......the Gospel writers believed that some people at least saw Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead.
It could be mistaken identity - see this account involving 6000 people - which is similar to the 500 in 1 Corinthians 15:6....
Visions were a dime per dozen those days, and an actual physical resurrection would stand out as far more impressive.
In Mark 6:14-16 Herod believed that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead. Though there is a difference between people like Herod believing in a physical resurrection and an actual one...
Besides, prior to Jesus' resurrection he engaged in some stunts that were much like what he is said to have done when resurrected. Was he merely a spirit or immaterial then? Would you argue that a physical Jesus could not have walked on water and that the Gospel writers were portraying him as a spirit at that time?
I think it just involves legends perhaps partly based on actual events or involving the fulfilment of prophecies.... BTW on the topic of zombies being raised from the dead there's:
Matthew 27:50-53
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I wonder what happened to the zombies after that?
 
i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross....
It seems the earliest surviving Christian writings were from Paul and it seems he believed in a physical resurrection....
e.g.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
So, Paul isn't talking specifically of Jesus in that sentence. He seems to imply resurrection is actually more common. Which would appear to dilute the importance of Jesus's alleged resurrection after his alleged crucifixion.
 
i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross....
It seems the earliest surviving Christian writings were from Paul and it seems he believed in a physical resurrection....
e.g.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
So, Paul isn't talking specifically of Jesus in that sentence. He seems to imply resurrection is actually more common. Which would appear to dilute the importance of Jesus's alleged resurrection after his alleged crucifixion.
Whether or not the dead would be resurrected on the apocalyptic Day of the Lord was a major theological dispute among Jews of that time. This belief carried over into modern Christianity; it's the historical reason why church dogmas forbade cremation until recently.
 
..... How would you delineate between an ecstatic vision and a hallucination, anyway? Medically speaking.
I don't really know what visions are exactly but I don't think it would be likely to happen to more than five hundred people at once. Mistaken identity like with those 6000 would be far more likely.
The most plausible explanation, at least to me, is that none of it actually happened. The story is an accretion of legends over time, told only to a handful of people with no way to fact check.

Sometimes, lack of evidence really is evidence. Given what I know about the life and times of Jesus of Nazareth I can't believe this happened. There'd be evidence if it had.

The kernel of truth in the legend is utterly plausible. Itinerant teacher/social reformer/anti-Roman activist is arrested, convicted, and executed for treason against Rome. That sort of thing happened a lot. Everyone, including the Roman authorities, knew what a Messiah is. He's a warrior king who will rescue the Jews from foreign oppression, that is drive out the Romans and return The Chosen People to their rightful place as a world power(or at least a sovereign people).

But, if thousands of people knew Jesus had been crucified and then Resurrected there'd have been rioting in the streets. Thousands of people would have known that Jesus had power over death. Then add the portents, like a solar event and an earthquake. Regardless of what anyone believed about Jesus, all this would have been the 1st century equivalent of front page news. Keeping everyone talking for years!
But no. Nothing but crickets for years, until Saul/Paul came along. Nothing noteworthy enough to even get mentioned anywhere. Nobody knew when Jesus was born or when He died. Nobody knew where He was buried or where He ascended to Heaven or when. If it weren't for the self appointed "apostle" Paul, the whole Jesus thing would have died out during the diaspora, when it became excruciatingly clear that there was no Messiah! Not any real Messiah, as per Jewish Scripture.
So, all that was left was a Hellenistic prophet(Paul) proclaiming a Hellenistic demi-god with a relatively sophisticated ethical code. And a mangled version of Judaism, that Jews knew better than to believe came from God, but pagans like the Greeks and Romans found attractive.

The rest is "history".
Tom
 
......the Gospel writers believed that some people at least saw Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead.
It could be mistaken identity - see this account involving 6000 people - which is similar to the 500 in 1 Corinthians 15:6....
Visions were a dime per dozen those days, and an actual physical resurrection would stand out as far more impressive.
In Mark 6:14-16 Herod believed that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead. Though there is a difference between people like Herod believing in a physical resurrection and an actual one...
Besides, prior to Jesus' resurrection he engaged in some stunts that were much like what he is said to have done when resurrected. Was he merely a spirit or immaterial then? Would you argue that a physical Jesus could not have walked on water and that the Gospel writers were portraying him as a spirit at that time?
I think it just involves legends perhaps partly based on actual events or involving the fulfilment of prophecies.... BTW on the topic of zombies being raised from the dead there's:
Matthew 27:50-53
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I wonder what happened to the zombies after that?
While I agree with what you're saying here, I really didn't mean to debate if the bodily resurrection of Christ really happened. I don't believe it did happen. My point is that the Gospel writers were saying that Jesus rose bodily, and that claim is not supportable by the evidence so people have turned to belief in a "spiritual" resurrection that they hope is not so easily disputed.
 
Of course physical resurrection is bogus. If the gospel protagonist returned to life why did he lead the time so cryptically? Why didn't he get on with his ministry just as he was doing before he was killed? That would have been the ticket. Instead we have this ghosty thing that some people don't recognize, not very convincing.

When I lived in Georgia three men where I worked came back from an Elvis concert where a performer was dressed and performing as Elvis. They all swore it was actually Elvis on stage even though Elvis was dead. Now if Elvis really wasn't dead what's with all the cat and mouse? Same goes for the gospel protagonist. Spooky spooky woo woo woo, so people believe. Really corny stuff.

Call the ghostbusters and get their read. Maybe he was a full torso free floating vaporous apparition involved in a mass sponge migration.
 
Isn't this about moving goalposts?

Jesus's death wasn't supposed to be the curtain call. He was supposed to return, and that return was supposed to be the big deal. And as time passed, and he didn't return, the goalposts shifted as to what actually mattered most. After all, there is no talk of a "virgin birth" in the first written gospel (Mark).

By the time of Paul, Jesus is Lord before he is even born! Those weren't the goalposts when Mark was writing.
 
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