Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death

[AthenaAwakened]

Derec, can a black person ever be innocent enough for you?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

WASHINGTON — Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.

“Children in most societies are considered to be in a distinct group with characteristics such as innocence and the need for protection. Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent,” said author Phillip Atiba Goff, PhD, of the University of California, Los Angeles. The study was published online in APA’s Journal of Personality and Social Psychology®.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

 

[Derec]

WASHINGTON — Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.

“Children in most societies are considered to be in a distinct group with characteristics such as innocence and the need for protection. Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent,” said author Phillip Atiba Goff, PhD, of the University of California, Los Angeles. The study was published online in APA’s Journal of Personality and Social Psychology®.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

This is not a case of him being perceived as older due to his race but because his height and weight was bigger than that of a typical 12 year old boy. He was 5'7" and weighed 195 lbs. That is about George Zimmerman's height and weight.

 

[Derec]

Derec, can a black person ever be innocent enough for you?

It has nothing to do with race. And what does "innocent enough" mean anyway? Do I think he was a thug? Certainly not. Do I think he made mistakes? Yes. He should not have removed the orange tip for example.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec, can a black person ever be innocent enough for you?

It has nothing to do with race. And what does "innocent enough" mean anyway? Do I think he was a thug? Certainly not. Do I think he made mistakes? Yes. He should not have removed the orange tip for example.

No matter what you say his height and weight was, he was still a 12-year old boy. Blaming HIM for his own death is just sickening.

The two cops (both with very poor service records) are 100% to blame. They are the only ones who "made mistakes" here.

Moreover, you are fixating on "murder" as if the only suggested charge was first degree murder. It wasn't.

Judge Ronald B. Adrine released the opinion Thursday afternoon, days after a group of local clergy and activists filed affidavits asking the court to find probable cause to arrest Loehmann and Frank Garmback on aggravated murder, murder, involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, negligent homicide and dereliction of duty charges.

The judge did not find probable cause that either officer should be charged with aggravated murder. Adrine also determined that there was not probable cause to charge Garmback with murder.

But the judge found probable cause for charges of murder, involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, negligent homicide and dereliction of duty against Loehmann.

He also found probable cause for charges of negligent homicide and dereliction of duty against Garmback.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/judge_finds_probable_cause_for.html

Ohio statute: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903

 

[AthenaAwakened]

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

This is not a case of him being perceived as older due to his race but because his height and weight was bigger than that of a typical 12 year old boy. He was 5'7" and weighed 195 lbs. That is about George Zimmerman's height and weight.

You can be big and still look twelve. And considering how quickly the boy was shot, I doubt if the cop who shot him was doing estimations of height and weight.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Derec, can a black person ever be innocent enough for you?

It has nothing to do with race. And what does "innocent enough" mean anyway? Do I think he was a thug? Certainly not. Do I think he made mistakes? Yes. He should not have removed the orange tip for example.

You did not answer the question. To my recollection, you have not once in any of the recent shooting deaths of black males found that the person shot was unjustifiably killed. If you have, please link to the post. If you only post things that say black people are to blame for being shot, I have to wonder if you ever see black people as being innocent.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec, can a black person ever be innocent enough for you?

... Do I think he made mistakes? Yes. He should not have removed the orange tip for example.

On this point again - you put blame on 12-year old Tamir Rice, saying "He should not have removed the orange tip for example"

I challenge you to produce evidence that Tamir Rice, himself, removed this orange tip from the gun.

 

[Juma]

What the police did would be just as bad even If Tamir had been 25 and the gun was real and loaded,

 

[Arctish]

What the police did would be just as bad even If Tamir had been 25 and the gun was real and loaded,

I agree.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I think the most significant contributing factor to this tragedy is the veteran officer driving the vehicle so close to Tamir. This put his rookie partner in an indefensible position of being 4.5-7 feet away from Tamir. The veteran officer is guilty of negligence resulting in Tamir's death. The rookie; I'm not sure he's guilty of anything.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I think the most significant contributing factor to this tragedy is the veteran officer driving the vehicle so close to Tamir. This put his rookie partner in an indefensible position of being 4.5-7 feet away from Tamir. The veteran officer is guilty of negligence resulting in Tamir's death. The rookie; I'm not sure he's guilty of anything.

He is guilty of killing a 12 year old boy. That is unless you have some proof that he didn't shoot Tamir and the that Tamir didn't die from those bullet wounds.

When you put on a badge and a gun, you (not your partners not your parents, not any suspect you may encounter) take the responsibility of protecting the citizenry and being held accountable for actions. You have to stand the test in judgment and you have to stand there for yourself.

 

[Toni]

I think the most significant contributing factor to this tragedy is the veteran officer driving the vehicle so close to Tamir. This put his rookie partner in an indefensible position of being 4.5-7 feet away from Tamir. The veteran officer is guilty of negligence resulting in Tamir's death. The rookie; I'm not sure he's guilty of anything.

He's guilty of shooting an unarmed 12 year old boy who was committing NO crime.

 

[Toni]

What the police did would be just as bad even If Tamir had been 25 and the gun was real and loaded,

I agree.

I don't agree. I think gunning down an unarmed child is worse than gunning down an armed adult. Both would still be murder, though.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I think the most significant contributing factor to this tragedy is the veteran officer driving the vehicle so close to Tamir. This put his rookie partner in an indefensible position of being 4.5-7 feet away from Tamir. The veteran officer is guilty of negligence resulting in Tamir's death. The rookie; I'm not sure he's guilty of anything.

He is guilty of killing a 12 year old boy. That is unless you have some proof that he didn't shoot Tamir and the that Tamir didn't die from those bullet wounds.

When you put on a badge and a gun, you (not your partners not your parents, not any suspect you may encounter) take the responsibility of protecting the citizenry and being held accountable for actions. You have to stand the test in judgment and you have to stand there for yourself.

I agree but in this context it is unfair to describe Tamir as a 12 year old boy as it was not known at the time of the shooting and while I am not unsympathetic, I question it's relevancy. At the time of the incident the officer's (still in training) knowledge of the situation was that of a black male with a gun. This is the information from dispatch at that point in time and his partner places him roughly six feet from this 195 lb male.
What type of motions did Tamir make at this point in time, the seconds before he was shot? Here is the latest story with the report. I haven't looked through the report but my understanding is only the rookie cop, Loehmann is witness to Tamir's movements between the cop car and the gazebo.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rice_investigation_relea.html#incart_maj-story-1

 

[AthenaAwakened]

He is guilty of killing a 12 year old boy. That is unless you have some proof that he didn't shoot Tamir and the that Tamir didn't die from those bullet wounds.

When you put on a badge and a gun, you (not your partners not your parents, not any suspect you may encounter) take the responsibility of protecting the citizenry and being held accountable for actions. You have to stand the test in judgment and you have to stand there for yourself.

I agree but in this context it is unfair to describe Tamir as a 12 year old boy as it was not known at the time of the shooting and while I am not unsympathetic, I question it's relevancy. At the time of the incident the officer's (still in training) knowledge of the situation was that of a black male with a gun. This is the information from dispatch at that point in time and his partner places him roughly six feet from this 195 lb male.
What type of motions did Tamir make at this point in time, the seconds before he was shot? Here is the latest story with the report. I haven't looked through the report but my understanding is only the rookie cop, Loehmann is witness to Tamir's movements between the cop car and the gazebo.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rice_investigation_relea.html#incart_maj-story-1

Tamir was 12

His actions are the actions of a 12 year old.

His actions were not given sufficient time to be anything other than being in the park.

The officers were both grown men and trained professional and I don't think them too fragile or precious to face the consequences of their actions.

 

[Derec]

No matter what you say his height and weight was, he was still a 12-year old boy. Blaming HIM for his own death is just sickening.

Unlike you I can recognize more than one party to events can make mistakes and contribute to the tragic outcome.
Also the height and weight are relevant to what the cops saw when they responded to the call. They should be judged on information they had, not hindsight.

The two cops (both with very poor service records) are 100% to blame. They are the only ones who "made mistakes" here.

Wrong. The kid made mistakes as well.

Moreover, you are fixating on "murder" as if the only suggested charge was first degree murder. It wasn't.

I am "fixating" on murder because that (second degree I think though, not first) is the most serious charge and because you and others on here insist it was murder.

- - - Updated - - -

You can be big and still look twelve.

Really? Did he have his age displayed on his forehead or something?

And considering how quickly the boy was shot, I doubt if the cop who shot him was doing estimations of height and weight.

Height and weight is certainly the first thing one notices. Certainly well before any "baby face" features that you think would make him appear 12.

 

[Arctish]

Two police officers received a report of a someone waving a gun around, rolled up right in front of someone with what appeared to be a gun in his waistband, and in less than 2 seconds the junior cop jumped out of the car and shot him.

That is fucked up on so many levels.

1. they weren't sure they had the right guy in their sights.
2. he wasn't waving the gun around when they saw him.
3. they put themselves in danger by driving right up to him, with the trainee cop getting out of the car almost within arm's reach of the guy they thought might be dangerous
4. they didn't give him a chance to understand or comply with their orders before shooting him.

Then they stood around like a couple of dumbfucks. The only action they took was to arrest the boy's sister- who was no threat to them at all, and had rushed over to try to save her brother - and put her in the car where she had a clear view of him dying.

 

[Derec]

You did not answer the question.

I did. Even earlier in this thread I said the shooting was not justified but still not murder either. I think Walter Scott case for example is probably murder, although even there the dead guy made mistakes that led to his death.

To my recollection, you have not once in any of the recent shooting deaths of black males found that the person shot was unjustifiably killed.

Early onset Alzheimer's?

If you have, please link to the post. If you only post things that say black people are to blame for being shot, I have to wonder if you ever see black people as being innocent.

I said I thought this killing and also Freddy Grey death were unjustified earlier up-thread. Even if a killing is not justified doesn't mean the dead people didn't make mistakes that contributed to their own death. Police rarely just come up to a person and shoot for no reason.

 

[Derec]

On this point again - you put blame on 12-year old Tamir Rice, saying "He should not have removed the orange tip for example"

I think he made mistakes like waving a realistic looking replica gun around with orange tip removed yes. Using the "but for" test, "but for" that he'd still be alive. We can't know for sure if he'd still be alive "but for" the police actions though. While they did park too close and shot too soon, we simply do not know how the situation would have unfolded if they hadn't.
Why do you object to identifying mistakes Tamir made? Is it because of his age?

I challenge you to produce evidence that Tamir Rice, himself, removed this orange tip from the gun.

Is that even disputed? It was his gun, right, so who else would have bothered?
If it turns out to be somebody else, arrest that person for involuntary manslaughter.