Cleveland Judge Finds Probable Cause to Charge Officers in Tamir Rice Death

[Nice Squirrel]

Tamir was 12

His actions are the actions of a 12 year old.

Correct, but the officers wouldn't have known that upon arrival. This does not excuse their actions in the least. As the gun was "holstered" in his belt and he made no threatening move.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Two police officers received a report of a someone waving a gun around, rolled up right in front of someone with what appeared to be a gun in his waistband, and in less than 2 seconds the junior cop jumped out of the car and shot him.

That is fucked up on so many levels.

1. they weren't sure they had the right guy in their sights.
2. he wasn't waving the gun around when they saw him.
3. they put themselves in danger by driving right up to him, with the trainee cop getting out of the car almost within arm's reach of the guy they thought might be dangerous
4. they didn't give him a chance to understand or comply with their orders before shooting him.

Then they stood around like a couple of dumbfucks. The only action they took was to arrest the boy's sister- who was no threat to them at all, and had rushed over to try to save her brother - and put her in the car where she had a clear view of him dying.

^This. There appears to be no warning, just shoot to kill the guy they THINK waved the gun.

 

[Derec]

He is guilty of killing a 12 year old boy. That is unless you have some proof that he didn't shoot Tamir and the that Tamir didn't die from those bullet wounds.

They had no way of knowing he was 12 or that the gun was not real.

When you put on a badge and a gun, you (not your partners not your parents, not any suspect you may encounter) take the responsibility of protecting the citizenry and being held accountable for actions. You have to stand the test in judgment and you have to stand there for yourself.

You know what they say? Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I think he made mistakes like waving a realistic looking replica gun around with orange tip removed yes. Using the "but for" test, "but for" that he'd still be alive. We can't know for sure if he'd still be alive "but for" the police actions though. While they did park too close and shot too soon, we simply do not know how the situation would have unfolded if they hadn't.

I can guess with 95% accuracy on how it would have unfolded if they hadn't shot him. Everyone would be alive and he would probably had a good tongue lashing after being thrown on the ground.

Why do you object to identifying mistakes Tamir made? Is it because of his age?

I did the same types of things at his age. This is why 12 year-olds are minors and not expected to have a full sense of responsibility and consequences for their actions. Yes, he made mistakes, but he was still a child. Don't equate size with mental development.

 

[Derec]

He's guilty of shooting an unarmed 12 year old boy who was committing NO crime.

He was armed with a realistic looking replica. He waved said replica in a public park which I do think is a crime. And cops had no way of knowing he was 12 or that the gun wasn't real.

I think the focus should be on what Nice Squirrel said, not on him being 12 or gun not being real as those facts are known only in hindsight and not to police at the time and should not be used against them.

 

[RavenSky]

He is guilty of killing a 12 year old boy. That is unless you have some proof that he didn't shoot Tamir and the that Tamir didn't die from those bullet wounds.

When you put on a badge and a gun, you (not your partners not your parents, not any suspect you may encounter) take the responsibility of protecting the citizenry and being held accountable for actions. You have to stand the test in judgment and you have to stand there for yourself.

I agree but in this context it is unfair to describe Tamir as a 12 year old boy as it was not known at the time of the shooting and while I am not unsympathetic, I question it's relevancy. At the time of the incident the officer's (still in training) knowledge of the situation was that of a black male with a gun. This is the information from dispatch at that point in time and his partner places him roughly six feet from this 195 lb male.
What type of motions did Tamir make at this point in time, the seconds before he was shot? Here is the latest story with the report. I haven't looked through the report but my understanding is only the rookie cop, Loehmann is witness to Tamir's movements between the cop car and the gazebo.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rice_investigation_relea.html#incart_maj-story-1

The man shot and killed 12-year old Tamir Rice before the car even stopped moving. That was HIS choice. HE failed to take even a few seconds to assess the situation. HE is guilty of killing Tamir Rice.

I fully agree that the driver is certainly guilty of reckless endangerment, but that does not excuse the person who pulled the trigger of the gun.

 

[RavenSky]

I challenge you to produce evidence that Tamir Rice, himself, removed this orange tip from the gun.

Is that even disputed? It was his gun, right, so who else would have bothered?
If it turns out to be somebody else, arrest that person for involuntary manslaughter.

I'm challenging it. You are blaming a 12-year old child for his own death at the hands of over-zealous, poorly trained police officers, so I challenge you to back up your repeated claims that Tamir Rice removed the "orange tip" from the toy he was playing with.

Provide the evidence or stop using that as your example to blame Tamir Rice for "his mistakes"

 

[RavenSky]

They had no way of knowing he was 12 or that the gun was not real.

Yes, actually they did. Instead of driving across the park lawn like they were starring in an action movie, then killing a 12-year old boy before the car even stopped rolling, they could have stopped a safe distance away and they could have assessed the situation.

 

[Toni]

I think he made mistakes like waving a realistic looking replica gun around with orange tip removed yes. Using the "but for" test, "but for" that he'd still be alive. We can't know for sure if he'd still be alive "but for" the police actions though. While they did park too close and shot too soon, we simply do not know how the situation would have unfolded if they hadn't.

What exactly do you believe this unarmed 12 year old child could possibly have done that *might* have provoked a justifiable shooting by police if they had only given him a little time?

Why do you object to identifying mistakes Tamir made? Is it because of his age?

Do you go about your day making certain that you make no mistakes at all. Zero. Nada. None. with an idea that any mistake you make might lead police to speed up to you and shoot you dead before even fully stopping or exiting the police car?

Do you believe that any of the actions you attribute to Tamir justify his shooting?

Do you believe that 'mistakes' are justification for execution by police? Or only if you are black?

Do you actually KNOW that Tamir Rice made ANY mistakes? Or was he acting like a child, the same exact way my own children did? That I did, FFS, eons ago?

Tamir Rice did nothing wrong. He committed no crime. He was unarmed. He was a child, playing where he typically played. In a place designed for play by children. He was identified by the caller as probably a juvenile, with probably a fake--that is: toy---gun.

Tamir Rice is not the one who made mistakes here. He did nothing to deserve to be shot and killed by the adults whose job it was to protect him.

I challenge you to produce evidence that Tamir Rice, himself, removed this orange tip from the gun.

Is that even disputed? It was his gun, right, so who else would have bothered?

Did this child remove the orange tip? You don't know. You are pretty quick to assume.

Guess what? It's been reported in the news:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rices_friend_says_he_rem.html


Oh, yes: While these police officers were comfortable denying medical attention to the CHILD they shot, they made pretty certain that the cop who sprained his ankle was transported by ambulance to the hospital for treatment.

 

[Juma]

I agree.

I don't agree. I think gunning down an unarmed child is worse than gunning down an armed adult. Both would still be murder, though.

You speak about the resulting tragedy. I speak of the policemans action. But i agree totally.

 

[RavenSky]

He's guilty of shooting an unarmed 12 year old boy who was committing NO crime.

He was armed with a realistic looking replica. He waved said replica in a public park which I do think is a crime. And cops had no way of knowing he was 12 or that the gun wasn't real.

I think the focus should be on what Nice Squirrel said, not on him being 12 or gun not being real as those facts are known only in hindsight and not to police at the time and should not be used against them.

It is NOT "a crime" in any state in this country to "waive" a toy gun, so Tamir Rice did not "make a mistake" in playing with his toy gun. As you have already acknowledged, you have zero evidence that Tamir Rice removed any "orange tip" from his toy gun, so he did not make a mistake there either.

Tamir Rice can not control how tall he is, nor the fact that other people tend to view black children as older/bigger/more guilty than their white peers, so you cannot say that Tamir Rice made any "mistakes" there either.

I think the focus should be on everything the two police officers did wrong and how they could have done much better to "serve and protect", instead of manufacturing nonsense to blame Tamir Rice while excusing the men who killed him.

 

[Derec]

What exactly do you believe this unarmed 12 year old child could possibly have done that *might* have provoked a justifiable shooting by police if they had only given him a little time?

If he'd taken out the gun out of the holster waistband that would have been justifiable homicide at that point.
How likely is it? No idea, but it's a possibility.

Do you go about your day making certain that you make no mistakes at all. Zero. Nada. None. with an idea that any mistake you make might lead police to speed up to you and shoot you dead before even fully stopping or exiting the police car?

I already said that police made mistakes as well. That doesn't discount the mistakes Tamir made.

Do you believe that any of the actions you attribute to Tamir justify his shooting?

Not the way the shooting happened, no.

Do you believe that 'mistakes' are justification for execution by police?

Where did I say that? And it wasn't an "execution" anyway.

Or only if you are black?

There was a white kid in Georgia who was shot by a female cop for far less than Tamir. He was shot at his doorstep, Tamir was in public. He only had a Wii controller. Tamir had a realistic looking firearm. And the cop wasn't even indicted. So don't give me that racist bullshit, because it's getting stale.

Do you actually KNOW that Tamir Rice made ANY mistakes? Or was he acting like a child, the same exact way my own children did? That I did, FFS, eons ago?

He waved a realistic looking firearm in public. He (most likely) removed the orange tip from the gun.

Tamir Rice did nothing wrong. He committed no crime. He was unarmed. He was a child, playing where he typically played.

It is wrong to say he did nothing wrong. He wasn't unarmed as he was in possession of a realistic looking firearm. He likely committed a crime by brandishing said realistic looking firearm in public.

In a place designed for play by children. He was identified by the caller as probably a juvenile, with probably a fake--that is: toy---gun.

No, the caller said might which is a far cry from probably. That information (probably because "might" doesn't mean much) wasn't relayed to the responding officers by the dispatch. Also he didn't, at 5'7" and 195 lbs look like a 12 year old. Note that "juvenile" includes 16 and 17 year olds and that gangs do include members in this age group. So "juvenile" is not synonymous with "innocent child" anyway.

Tamir Rice is not the one who made mistakes here. He did nothing to deserve to be shot and killed by the adults whose job it was to protect him.

He did nothing to deserve to die, true. But he did make mistakes. You are again conflating distinct concepts.
For example, this girl didn't deserve to die either but she certainly made some serious mistakes.
Girl, 14, struck and killed by train in Martinez

Did this child remove the orange tip? You don't know. You are pretty quick to assume.

It was a very reasonable assumption.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rices_friend_says_he_rem.html

Ok then, I stand corrected. Note however, that this doesn't absolve Tamir from having committed mistakes. In fact, in makes it worse.

The boy said he warned Tamir to be careful because the pellet gun "looked real." Tamir stored the gun in a backpack when the two arrived at the recreation center just after 11 a.m., but witnesses said they saw Tamir pointing the gun and shooting at car tires that afternoon.

So the boy warned him to be careful because the gun looked real. So he was informed about the dangers of using it in public like he did.
But he didn't merely wave it around, according to this article. He was shooting at car tires. Which means that he was armed, he did make mistakes and he was committing crimes (unless you want to claim that shooting pellets at car tires is somehow legal in Ohio).

Oh, yes: While these police officers were comfortable denying medical attention to the CHILD they shot, they made pretty certain that the cop who sprained his ankle was transported by ambulance to the hospital for treatment.

Where does it say they denied medical attention to Tamir.

 

[Derec]

It is NOT "a crime" in any state in this country to "waive" a toy gun, so Tamir Rice did not "make a mistake" in playing with his toy gun. As you have already acknowledged, you have zero evidence that Tamir Rice removed any "orange tip" from his toy gun, so he did not make a mistake there either.

A realistic replica. You did see the gun, right? When I think "toy gun" I think this

or this

but definitely not this

As far as who removed the tip, it turns out it was a friend, but this friend warned him to be careful because the gun looked real. Which means it's a mistake by Tamir that he disregarded this sage advice. Also, Tamir used the gun to shoot at car tires, which is not only a mistake, but also a crime. In any state.

Tamir Rice can not control how tall he is, nor the fact that other people tend to view black children as older/bigger/more guilty than their white peers, so you cannot say that Tamir Rice made any "mistakes" there either.

No, he can't control his height (he did have some control over his weight though) but he should have been more conscious of how he would be perceived when waving a realistic looking gun around.

I think the focus should be on everything the two police officers did wrong and how they could have done much better to "serve and protect", instead of manufacturing nonsense to blame Tamir Rice while excusing the men who killed him.

I am not excusing what they did. I maintain my position that both sides made mistakes, and that while the shooting is not murder it was not justified either.

 

[RavenSky]

I already said that police made mistakes as well. That doesn't discount the mistakes Tamir made.

yea, you keep saying it, but you still can't show a single "mistake" Tamir Rice made, and/or how any of his actions should have resulted in his death. Meanwhile, you also keep excusing the police "mistakes" because they are - in your mind - only mistakes "in hindsight"

Wrong Derec. The two police officers made serious "mistakes" that had absolutely nothing to do with "orange tips" on a toy gun that was in the boy's waistband anyway. They caused Tamir Rice's death, and they should be held accountable.

 

[RavenSky]

He waved a realistic looking firearm in public. He (most likely) removed the orange tip from the gun.

Adding "(most likely)" to your bogus claim does not let you get away with blaming Tamir Rice for a "mistake" that not only do you have ZERO evidence he did, but Toni has already shown you he did NOT make.

 

[Derec]

yea, you keep saying it, but you still can't show a single "mistake" Tamir Rice made,

- waving a realistic looking replica in public even though he was warned to be careful because the gun looked real
- the gun in question is a pellet gun and he used it to shoot at car tires, which is a crime.

and/or how any of his actions should have resulted in his death. Meanwhile, you also keep excusing the police "mistakes" because they are - in your mind - only mistakes "in hindsight"

No, the fact they rolled up the way they did and opened fire immediately is not "in hindsight" obviously. What is in hindsight is not recognizing he was 12 or that the gun he had was't a real firearm. They had no way of knowing that. As far as they knew they were engaging an adult (or at least older teen) suspect armed with an actual firearm.

Wrong Derec. The two police officers made serious "mistakes" that had absolutely nothing to do with "orange tips" on a toy gun that was in the boy's waistband anyway. They caused Tamir Rice's death, and they should be held accountable.

I agree that they made serious mistakes and that they should be held accountable. I do not understand why you want to argue me on points we already agree on.

 

[Derec]

Adding "(most likely)" to your bogus claim does not let you get away with blaming Tamir Rice for a "mistake" that not only do you have ZERO evidence he did, but Toni has already shown you he did NOT make.

Probability is always a function of knowledge we have at the time. Yes, another boy admitted to removing the tip but he also said he warned Tamir to be careful because the gun looks so real. Tamir definitely wasn't careful. In fact, he used said gun to shoot at car tires. "He did nothing wrong, no not a thing" just like Trayvon Martin, right?

 

[RavenSky]

A realistic replica. You did see the gun, right? When I think "toy gun" I think this

or this

but definitely not this

Derec, seriously, I don't care what you *think* a toy gun *should* look like, because unless you are advocating for all "realistic" toys gun be outlawed (including their manufacture), then Tamir Rice was not breaking any laws by playing with the toy.

As far as who removed the tip, it turns out it was a friend, but this friend warned him to be careful because the gun looked real. Which means it's a mistake by Tamir that he disregarded this sage advice. Also, Tamir used the gun to shoot at car tires, which is not only a mistake, but also a crime. In any state.

Again, playing with a TOY is not a crime in any state. Moreover, you can't use a TOY to "shoot at car tires" But you, Derec, will keep trying to portray a 12-year old black child as in the wrong, won't you?

Tamir Rice can not control how tall he is, nor the fact that other people tend to view black children as older/bigger/more guilty than their white peers, so you cannot say that Tamir Rice made any "mistakes" there either.

No, he can't control his height (he did have some control over his weight though) but he should have been more conscious of how he would be perceived when waving a realistic looking gun around.

So now you are not only trying to 'fat-shame' a dead 12-year old, you are holding HIM responsible for the illogical biases of strangers.

Do you have no depth you will not sink to in order to blame a black person for their own death at the hands of white men with guns?

I think the focus should be on everything the two police officers did wrong and how they could have done much better to "serve and protect", instead of manufacturing nonsense to blame Tamir Rice while excusing the men who killed him.

I am not excusing what they did. I maintain my position that both sides made mistakes, and that while the shooting is not murder it was not justified either.

You can pretend to be taking a Faux *fair and balanced* approach here, Derec, but you are again (as always) blaming the dead black victim while excusing/minimizing the actions of the police. You have failed to show how the 12-year old "made mistakes" but you have waived off the police actions as only avoidable "in hindsight"

But let's put those facts aside and focus on your admission that the shooting was not justified. What do you think should happen to these two police officers?

 

[laughing dog]

Adding "(most likely)" to your bogus claim does not let you get away with blaming Tamir Rice for a "mistake" that not only do you have ZERO evidence he did, but Toni has already shown you he did NOT make.

Probability is always a function of knowledge we have at the time. Yes, another boy admitted to removing the tip but he also said he warned Tamir to be careful because the gun looks so real. Tamir definitely wasn't careful. In fact, he used said gun to shoot at car tires. "He did nothing wrong, no not a thing" just like Trayvon Martin, right?

If being stupid or careless is a capital offense, there'd be a lot fewer posters on this board. Just sayin'.

 

[RavenSky]

- waving a realistic looking replica in public even though he was warned to be careful because the gun looked real
- the gun in question is a pellet gun and he used it to shoot at car tires, which is a crime.

The article Toni produced - which showed that you flat out made up your earlier claims about Tamir Rice - did not say that the friend (another CHILD) warned him not to "waive" the toy in public. But more importantly, now that your earlier bogus claim has been destroyed, you are moving on to another one - that Tamir Rice was committing a crime of shooting at car tires. So now I challenge you to back up THAT claim... and not with "most likely"

Provide evidence that Tamir Rice was, in fact, shooting pellets at anyone's tire (as opposed to simply pointing the toy and pretending). Then prove that Tamir Rice caused any property damage, or in any other way committed a crime. Produce the specific Ohio statutes.

and/or how any of his actions should have resulted in his death. Meanwhile, you also keep excusing the police "mistakes" because they are - in your mind - only mistakes "in hindsight"

No, the fact they rolled up the way they did and opened fire immediately is not "in hindsight" obviously. What is in hindsight is not recognizing he was 12 or that the gun he had was't a real firearm. They had no way of knowing that. As far as they knew they were engaging an adult (or at least older teen) suspect armed with an actual firearm.

and they did NOTHING to confirm or revise their pre-conceived WRONG assumptions. Instead, they killed an innocent 12-year old child.

Wrong Derec. The two police officers made serious "mistakes" that had absolutely nothing to do with "orange tips" on a toy gun that was in the boy's waistband anyway. They caused Tamir Rice's death, and they should be held accountable.

I agree that they made serious mistakes and that they should be held accountable. I do not understand why you want to argue me on points we already agree on.