# Climate Change(d)?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Under the high emissions scenario that the scientists modeled, in which pollution from the burning of fossil fuels continues to climb, warming would trigger ocean species loss by 2300 that was on par with the five mass extinctions in Earth’s past. The last of those wiped out the dinosaurs.

What utter nonsense. It’s modeling based off a scenario that can’t happen.

A rapture like cult.
A high emission scenario can't happen?

The reality is that they don't know enough about methane hydrate behavior or quantity to model it adequately so it's totally omitted from the models--but it very well might be even worse than the CO2. Even if we can live under AC that doesn't mean our food sources can.

The reality is we are already seeing places experiencing deadly heat (at 95F wet bulb you can no longer maintain body temperature), something that wasn't expected for decades. We're getting basically the worst case scenario, why do you say it's impossible we will continue to get that?

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
Ffs, they can’t get next week’s weather forecast correct never mind the next ten years. Every single prediction has been spectacularly wrong.

A doomsday, end of times, rapture like cult.
You can't predict whether the DJIA will be up or down tomorrow; But we can predict that it will be up ten years from now.

The inability to accurately forecast short term fluctuations in a chaotic phenomenon is not a barrier to the forecasting of long term trends, and your false belief that it must be, as you have expressed here, is a clear, unavoidable, and unequivocal demonstration that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

If you were smart, you would take this undeniable evidence on board; Recognise that your lack of education in this area is excluding you from useful contribtion to the debate; and either stop trying to contribute, or go away and study to fill the gaps in your competence before contributing further.

However, I predict that you will instead continue to post counterfactual soundbites and empty assertions that your opponents are acting like cult members.

Please disappoint me by confounding my prediction and actually learning something.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Ffs, they can’t get next week’s weather forecast correct never mind the next ten years. Every single prediction has been spectacularly wrong.

A doomsday, end of times, rapture like cult.

The doomsday predictions in the popular press are wrong. The stuff the scientists put out has fared pretty well.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Our modern existence based on alrge amounts of water and abundant food is fragile and always has been. Made obvius by the andemic.

age, Arizona CNN —

Lake Powell, the country’s second-largest reservoir, is drying up.

The situation is critical: if water levels at the lake were to drop another 32 feet, all hydroelectricity production would be halted at the reservoir’s Glen Canyon Dam.

The West’s climate change-induced water crisis is now triggering a potential energy crisis for millions of people in the Southwest who rely on the dam as a power source. Over the past several years, the Glen Canyon Dam has lost about 16 percent of its capacity to generate power. The water levels at Lake Powell have dropped around 100 feet in the last three years.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
Oh noes, the climate apocalypse cometh!!

Bryan Hill runs the public power utility in Page, Arizona, where the federal dam is located, and likens the situation to judgment day.

It really, really is a rapture like cult. There’s no other way to describe it when you read nonsense like that.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
Our modern existence based on alrge amounts of water and abundant food is fragile and always has been. Made obvius by the andemic.

age, Arizona CNN —

Lake Powell, the country’s second-largest reservoir, is drying up.

The situation is critical: if water levels at the lake were to drop another 32 feet, all hydroelectricity production would be halted at the reservoir’s Glen Canyon Dam.

The West’s climate change-induced water crisis is now triggering a potential energy crisis for millions of people in the Southwest who rely on the dam as a power source. Over the past several years, the Glen Canyon Dam has lost about 16 percent of its capacity to generate power. The water levels at Lake Powell have dropped around 100 feet in the last three years.
Which is yet another reason (if more were needed) why it's insanity to try to fight climate change by using power plants that are dependent upon the weather.

Hydro, solar, and wind as a response to climate change are hugely risky, because they depend upon climatic conditions at their sites remaining favourable.

We need electricity that is generated without carbon emissions, and without reliance on climate stability. There's only one solution that fits that bill.

#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump
Ffs, they can’t get next week’s weather forecast correct never mind the next ten years.
I can't predict when a single leaf of one of my cedar trees will fall, let alone where exactly it will land. Nevertheless, I am confident that the tree will have shed all leaves a couple of months from now.

#### bleubird

##### Veteran Member
Our modern existence based on alrge amounts of water and abundant food is fragile and always has been. Made obvius by the andemic.

age, Arizona CNN —

Lake Powell, the country’s second-largest reservoir, is drying up.

The situation is critical: if water levels at the lake were to drop another 32 feet, all hydroelectricity production would be halted at the reservoir’s Glen Canyon Dam.

The West’s climate change-induced water crisis is now triggering a potential energy crisis for millions of people in the Southwest who rely on the dam as a power source. Over the past several years, the Glen Canyon Dam has lost about 16 percent of its capacity to generate power. The water levels at Lake Powell have dropped around 100 feet in the last three years.
The Southwest is so F#$Kt . 12 years of drought and no end in site. Sure I live in a cold wet place,but we never worry about power or water. I like to visit the desert,would never want live there. And,I am 70 and a lot of people here snowbird,mostly Mexico and Hawaii. #### southernhybrid ##### Contributor Under the high emissions scenario that the scientists modeled, in which pollution from the burning of fossil fuels continues to climb, warming would trigger ocean species loss by 2300 that was on par with the five mass extinctions in Earth’s past. The last of those wiped out the dinosaurs. What utter nonsense. It’s modeling based off a scenario that can’t happen. A rapture like cult. Well, thanks for enlightening us. I'm sure you know a lot more than the actual scientists who have studied these things in details for decades. /s #### T.G.G. Moogly ##### Formerly Joedad I also live in a cold wet region where flooding is common. It never ceases to amaze me that a person's idea of "emergency" water usage is to water the grass only once a week. That shows how dangerously and insanely and cluelessly accustomed someone can get to actual reality. Watering grass while there is a genuine crisis in availability? Holy fuck are people out of touch! #### southernhybrid ##### Contributor I also live in a cold wet region where flooding is common. It never ceases to amaze me that a person's idea of "emergency" water usage is to water the grass only once a week. That shows how dangerously and insanely and cluelessly accustomed someone can get to actual reality. Watering grass while there is a genuine crisis in availability? Holy fuck are people out of touch! I think that all grass watering should be banned, with the possible exception of when seeding a new area. But, I think it would be much better if we stopped putting grass in our yards and instead used natural flora that needs little attention. Unfortunately, most of our yard is still grass, but if the house had been new when we bought it, I would have planted decorative grass, and other low maintenance plants. We've never watered our grass and it still grows. Droughts don't kill it, as it always comes back when the rain returns. #### T.G.G. Moogly ##### Formerly Joedad It really, really is a rapture like cult. Oddly enough that's how Jim Jones described the rest of humanity outside Jonestown. He even wrote a manual for his followers entitled "Advice on How to Avoid Becoming a member of a Cult." So your advice to the rest of humanity with regards to cult behavior is certainly sound. How are you and Bigfoot getting along these days? #### Elixir ##### Made in America I also live in a cold wet region where flooding is common. It never ceases to amaze me that a person's idea of "emergency" water usage is to water the grass only once a week. That shows how dangerously and insanely and cluelessly accustomed someone can get to actual reality. Watering grass while there is a genuine crisis in availability? Holy fuck are people out of touch! I think that all grass watering should be banned, with the possible exception of when seeding a new area. But, I think it would be much better if we stopped putting grass in our yards and instead used natural flora that needs little attention. Unfortunately, most of our yard is still grass, but if the house had been new when we bought it, I would have planted decorative grass, and other low maintenance plants. We've never watered our grass and it still grows. Droughts don't kill it, as it always comes back when the rain returns. Our yard looks like a lawn from more than 20-30 feet away, but it's a multispecies assortment of grasses, wild plants, dandelions etc. I try to only cut it a few times a year and water it minimally. Certainly don't cut it until after the bees have exhausted the dandelions. The deer and rabbits keep it all under control for the most part, but it starts looking raggedy when the few plants they won't eat, start to grow out of proportion to the rest. That's when it gets cut... Might not be as luxurious to lie on as single species grass but it requires almost no maintenance and looks just fine to me. #### T.G.G. Moogly ##### Formerly Joedad I also live in a cold wet region where flooding is common. It never ceases to amaze me that a person's idea of "emergency" water usage is to water the grass only once a week. That shows how dangerously and insanely and cluelessly accustomed someone can get to actual reality. Watering grass while there is a genuine crisis in availability? Holy fuck are people out of touch! I think that all grass watering should be banned, with the possible exception of when seeding a new area. But, I think it would be much better if we stopped putting grass in our yards and instead used natural flora that needs little attention. Unfortunately, most of our yard is still grass, but if the house had been new when we bought it, I would have planted decorative grass, and other low maintenance plants. We've never watered our grass and it still grows. Droughts don't kill it, as it always comes back when the rain returns. Excellent advice. Too bad there are too few of us around who recognize the nonsense that is pet grass. Even though dandelion is an invasive I dedicated a portion of the yard to dandelions last year, another portion to native, wild strawberry. I prefer native flora but both are good for the environment and not affected by drought. Having a grass lawn is okay, what is insane is pouring chemicals and water onto it. There is a person down the street, a good friend, who is clueless. Her chemical grass took a hit last year with the dry, hot weather and much of it died. This is the fate of all chemical lawns once the life that is the soil is destroyed. She was devastated but is incapable of recognizing how wrong is her behavior. Lots of people fear "nature." My neighbor asked me to keep mowing along my side of his pool fence because the mice will climb the fence and get into his yard. What! It is literally insane how disconnected people can be with regards to environmental reality. I think it all gets back to that religious insanity about man vs nature. #### pood ##### Senior Member Oh noes, we are all going to die !!!11!!!11!! Keep calm lad. You made a statement. You said that every single prediction of climate change has been “spectacularly wrong.” I gave you a link proving just the opposite. Climate change models fifty years old have proven dead-on accurate. Would you care to retract your statement? I might add that the first climate change prediction owing to fossil-fuel use was by a scientist in 1898. The first newspaper notice of this finding was 1902. The first prediction that climate change could occur because of human activity goes all the way back to 1837. No one said “we are all going to die (followed by your childish exclamation points and strings of the number 1).” However, many are already dying from climate change, many more will die, and there will be hundreds of millions of climate refugrees as the waters rise. Swathes of the equatorial regions are slated to become uninhbitable by humans unless we rein in carbon emissions. We already have monster storms, wildfires and droughts that have been specifically tied to climate change, including California’s current mega-drought. Climate change denialism is a cult. A rapture-like cult. Let’s go Dump! #### steve_bank ##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ... A question for twizzler, give him a chance to answer. There are two common commofities in your home. One you can't do withiut for about 3 days the other a few months, What are they? Where do they come from? There are undoubdedly groups paid or not that go around posting repetitive attacks on climate change around the net. There are probaly sites where one can go to pick up phtases, hemce the repititive mantra. #### steve_bank ##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ... Our modern existence based on alrge amounts of water and abundant food is fragile and always has been. Made obvius by the andemic. age, Arizona CNN — Lake Powell, the country’s second-largest reservoir, is drying up. The situation is critical: if water levels at the lake were to drop another 32 feet, all hydroelectricity production would be halted at the reservoir’s Glen Canyon Dam. The West’s climate change-induced water crisis is now triggering a potential energy crisis for millions of people in the Southwest who rely on the dam as a power source. Over the past several years, the Glen Canyon Dam has lost about 16 percent of its capacity to generate power. The water levels at Lake Powell have dropped around 100 feet in the last three years. The Southwest is so F#$Kt . 12 years of drought and no end in site. Sure I live in a cold wet place,but we never worry about power or water. I like to visit the desert,would never want live there. And,I am 70 and a lot of people here snowbird,mostly Mexico and Hawaii.
Will the thawing tundra have to be mowed?

#### pood

##### Senior Member
“Hint to coal consumers,” from 1902:

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
On behalf of Ruptured psych-dolts, I'd like to point out that Svante Arrhenius was Swedish, just like Greta Thunberg. Makes you think, hunh?
“Hint to coal consumers,” from 1902:

View attachment 38364
Do you expect us to be impressed by some chemist from Sweden? Get back to us when you have a Russian scientist on your side, and can link to an interview on InfoWars or other credible media.

Sure, Arrhenius won a Nobel Prize. But you know who awarded that Prize? The King of Sweden. The cult was going strong 120 years ago. Anyway isn't Sweden taking Biden's side in the Biden-vs-Trump War being waged by proxy in Ukraine?

No, TSwizzle knows more about climate in one of his pustulant pimples than any Nobel Laureate ever knew in both cerebral hemispheres put together.

Go Brandon!

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia

“climate denial”? LOL.

Everyone benefits from cheap abundant energy Steve. Everyone.

#### pood

##### Senior Member
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia

“climate denial”? LOL.

Everyone benefits from cheap abundant energy Steve. Everyone.

Were you planning to respond to my post #615 and retract your false claim that all climate-change predictions have been “spectacularly wrong“?

Now, in your latest post, you set up a red herring. Yes, everyone benefits from cheap abundant energy, provided that such energy isn’t destablizing the climate to dangerous levels, which fossil fuels are. That fossil are doing this is not an opinion, it is a fact. Why the diversionary tactic?

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia

“climate denial”? LOL.

Everyone benefits from cheap abundant energy Steve. Everyone.
Yes. Cheap gasoline was a big part of the American post war economic growth.

That was then not today .Shold we go back to the 19th century?

I remnber smog in the NYC area before pollution controls and emissions standards on cars. On a bad day in La with clear skies visiblity might only have been a mile. People suffered from pollution related lung disease. Eye damage as well.

In the 90s I lived for a while in the North Idaho Silver Valley known for silver mining.

I was there when the smoke stack for the old Bunker smelter was blown down. The entire top soil of Kellog Idaho had to be scraped up due to aresnic caontaminaton. Older people who grew up there told me there were steams you dd not swim in, it burned your skin. The lake bed of Lake Coeur D'Alene is toxic.

Only an ideological ignorant fool thinks we can continue as we have.

Can you answer the quetions or do you give up?

Without wtaer yiu last around 3 days. Without food maybe a month or more if you have water. Do you think water comes from a faucet and food from a grocery store?

Yu mist not b paying attention to reporting on water and agriclture estimates.

Reducing everything to profit and free markets will lead to systemic failure based in rigid ideology much as the Soviets failed by adhering to an ideology that did not work.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Oh noes, the climate apocalypse cometh!!

Bryan Hill runs the public power utility in Page, Arizona, where the federal dam is located, and likens the situation to judgment day.

It really, really is a rapture like cult. There’s no other way to describe it when you read nonsense like that.
You get water from there. It's going to bite.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
I think that all grass watering should be banned, with the possible exception of when seeding a new area. But, I think it would be much better if we stopped putting grass in our yards and instead used natural flora that needs little attention.

Here in Southern California the era of the lawn in people’s yards is on the way out. I have started to eliminate my front lawn and will replace with a mixture of hard scape and CA native plants that require little water. I’ll keep some sprinklers for the backyard which is a small area and I grow herbs and peppers.

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#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia
America has a a political Party — I call it QOPAnon — whose policy is to bombard Americans with lies. Gullible nitwits who deny the reality of climate change are eager to assume that voices of reason are wrong about other subjects as well. For example, the same nitwits who deny climate change also endorse the lies that top Democrats are child sex traffickers. This despite that a top Republican, Matt Gaetz, actually IS a child sex trafficker.

Obama was born in Kenya; Hillary runs a brothel in the basement of a pizzeria; the Election was stolen; AGW is a myth. The lies are ceaseless; rational voices are forced to play Whack-a-Mole and can't keep up with the lies.

Many QOPAnoners are smart enough to realize these are lies. (Some are not, as we see in this thread.) But they end up assuming ALL news is a lie, whether they see it on InfoWars or read it in the New York Times. With all information suspect in their view, they'll disregard ALL policy matters when they vote and just choose whoever seems to hate the same people they hate.

And these gullible idiots are so common in today's America that QOPAnon will probably take over Congress this November. When a history book is written decades from now, this tragic era will be called The Idiotocracy.

#### T.G.G. Moogly

Here in Southern California the era of the lawn in people’s yards is on the way out. I have started to eliminate my front lawn lawn and will replace with a mixture of hard scape and CA native plants that require little water. I’ll keep some sprinklers for the backyard which is a small area and I grow herbs and peppers.
So you woke up one day to learn that lawns are on the way out? Marvelous!

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's go Brandon!
Here in Southern California the era of the lawn in people’s yards is on the way out. I have started to eliminate my front lawn lawn and will replace with a mixture of hard scape and CA native plants that require little water. I’ll keep some sprinklers for the backyard which is a small area and I grow herbs and peppers.
So you woke up one day to learn that lawns are on the way out? Marvelous!

No, I was never asleep on the subject.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Who benefits from repetitious t climate denial messaging across the web?

coal
natural gas
oil
politicians
Russia
America has a a political Party — I call it QOPAnon — whose policy is to bombard Americans with lies. Gullible nitwits who deny the reality of climate change are eager to assume that voices of reason are wrong about other subjects as well. For example, the same nitwits who deny climate change also endorse the lies that top Democrats are child sex traffickers. This despite that a top Republican, Matt Gaetz, actually IS a child sex trafficker.

Obama was born in Kenya; Hillary runs a brothel in the basement of a pizzeria; the Election was stolen; AGW is a myth. The lies are ceaseless; rational voices are forced to play Whack-a-Mole and can't keep up with the lies.

Many QOPAnoners are smart enough to realize these are lies. (Some are not, as we see in this thread.) But they end up assuming ALL news is a lie, whether they see it on InfoWars or read it in the New York Times. With all information suspect in their view, they'll disregard ALL policy matters when they vote and just choose whoever seems to hate the same people they hate.

And these gullible idiots are so common in today's America that QOPAnon will probably take over Congress this November. When a history book is written decades from now, this tragic era will be called The Idiotocracy.
Yes, we Americans are gullible. Certainly not like the Brits, French, and Canadians.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Here in Southern California the era of the lawn in people’s yards is on the way out. I have started to eliminate my front lawn lawn and will replace with a mixture of hard scape and CA native plants that require little water. I’ll keep some sprinklers for the backyard which is a small area and I grow herbs and peppers.
So you woke up one day to learn that lawns are on the way out? Marvelous!

No, I was never asleep on the subject.
Gosh, I thought the Ca water shortage was all hype as predicted and never happened. Silly me. I thought there is no limit to water consumption.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Increasing jellyfish population, or biomass, is a side-effect of global warming. A 1-degree rise in ocean temperature is enough to tip the balance between fish and jellyfish. (For the first time studied, total jellyfish biomass exceeds total fish biomass?) Should we discuss that?

In 2007, mauve stinger jellyfish stung and asphyxiated more than 100,000 farmed salmon off the coast of Ireland as aquaculturists on a boat watched in horror. The jelly swarm reportedly was 35 feet deep and covered ten square miles.

First, let's admit that rising ocean temperature is just one of several reasons (albeit most important) for the jelly bloom booms. Also contributing are rising acidity, reduced competition and predation due to overfishing, pollution from plastics, fertilizers, etc., and high growth rates due to the phylum's "swinging from both trees": jellies engage in both sexual and asexual reproduction. I read that from 2000 to 2005 jellies netted or landed through the Tsushima Strait increased hugely. (And a survey of Malaysia shows that leatherback turtles — major predator of jellyfish declined from 3100 female turtles in 1968 to just 2 females in 1996.)

IIUC, models suggest that once jellies take over it will be hard for fish to stage a come-back. Jellies have far more body designs than fish have, and can optimize for various niches better than the rigid-body fish.. We are already watching evolution [of bloom booming jellyfish] in real-time!

But what are the real numbers? The correct prediction? Are jellyfish figures exaggerated? Will replacement of fish with jellies IMPROVE the human condition anyway, as chefs design jellyfish steak, jellyfish salad, etc.?

Jellyfish booms coincide with fluctuations in El Nino, etc.

The 1998 El Nino peak, and the positive El Nino 2001-2006 correspond to the jelly booms I noticed Googling.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
I also live in a cold wet region where flooding is common. It never ceases to amaze me that a person's idea of "emergency" water usage is to water the grass only once a week. That shows how dangerously and insanely and cluelessly accustomed someone can get to actual reality. Watering grass while there is a genuine crisis in availability? Holy fuck are people out of touch!
I've always thought watering the grass was a silly waste of water and the midwest has no water shortage.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Increasing jellyfish population, or biomass, is a side-effect of global warming. A 1-degree rise in ocean temperature is enough to tip the balance between fish and jellyfish. (For the first time studied, total jellyfish biomass exceeds total fish biomass?) Should we discuss that?

In 2007, mauve stinger jellyfish stung and asphyxiated more than 100,000 farmed salmon off the coast of Ireland as aquaculturists on a boat watched in horror. The jelly swarm reportedly was 35 feet deep and covered ten square miles.

First, let's admit that rising ocean temperature is just one of several reasons (albeit most important) for the jelly bloom booms. Also contributing are rising acidity, reduced competition and predation due to overfishing, pollution from plastics, fertilizers, etc., and high growth rates due to the phylum's "swinging from both trees": jellies engage in both sexual and asexual reproduction. I read that from 2000 to 2005 jellies netted or landed through the Tsushima Strait increased hugely. (And a survey of Malaysia shows that leatherback turtles — major predator of jellyfish declined from 3100 female turtles in 1968 to just 2 females in 1996.)
If the atmosphere isn't the canary in the coalmine, the oceans are. Temp, acidity, currents, they have a massive impact on our environment (food, ecology, temperature, sea level). Changes to these things are not simple. The amount of energy required to heat an ocean is absurdly high. If Covid taught us nothing else, it is our global economic and distribution system is built on a status quo / little give arrangement. If things shift, it will be difficult to adapt fast enough.

We'll survive, but it won't be fun and there will be a lot of whining... and the people who said climate change was a cultish idea will just say climate change was fait accompli.

#### pood

##### Senior Member

We'll survive, but it won't be fun and there will be a lot of whining... and the people who said climate change was a cultish idea will just say climate change was fait accompli.

Right-wing, Trump-loving kooks who said that climate change was a cultish idea and a liberal plot to impose One World Government or whatever those loons think will seamlessly shift gears when climate change reaches horrendous proportions. They’ll say liberals were to blame for it, and climate change is God’s vengenace for critical race theory, “wokeism,” transgenderism, and same-sex marriage. Guranteed. And the idiots who follow people like Tucker Carlson will lap it up as they flee to higher ground and cooler climes.

#### southernhybrid

##### Contributor
I found an excellent article that was written about a year ago, that answers most questions about climate change. It explains everything in detail, including why parts of the world are getting colder while others are getting much hotter etc. I don't know if it will convince a denialist, but it helped me understand some things that I hadn't considered before.

Of course, people my age aren't the ones who will be impacted by the worst effects of climate change, but some of us are concerned about those who come after us, so we're willing to make some changes. And, even a denialist should understand that air pollution is still a big problem, so one would think that if nothing else, most everyone would want cleaner air, and a healthier future.

It's a very long article. To be honest, I'm not optimistic that the world will agree on what needs to be done, but it's good to at least understand what's happening, imo.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/cli...nL9o2qXfoIgjowQ9QEm8tzdRrCR5kw&smid=url-share

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Most people probably fo not consciously realize our atmosphere is a thin shell around the Earth. Above 10,000 feet about 2 miles oxygen starts to get scarce.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Most people probably fo not consciously realize our atmosphere is a thin shell around the Earth. Above 10,000 feet about 2 miles oxygen starts to get scarce.
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!
Wow, and congratulations!

These days I don't even like to climb staircases unless there's a hand-rail to hold on to.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!
Wow, and congratulations!

These days I don't even like to climb staircases unless there's a hand-rail to hold on to.
Take it one step at a time.....

#### Elixir

Most people probably fo not consciously realize our atmosphere is a thin shell around the Earth. Above 10,000 feet about 2 miles oxygen starts to get scarce.
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!

Thats outstanding! I live at about 8k’ altitude, and any kind of exertion at 10k knocks me down real fast. I can see the summits of 4 or 5 “fourteeners” from my living room, and have only ever summited one - a walk-up.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!
Wow, and congratulations!

These days I don't even like to climb staircases unless there's a hand-rail to hold on to.
I've been having some knee problems recently that will limit me up there. Ironically, my knee won't complain about going up the mountain--but I'm going to come down pretty darn slowly. Hopefully the doc will have some solutions Tuesday.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Most people probably fo not consciously realize our atmosphere is a thin shell around the Earth. Above 10,000 feet about 2 miles oxygen starts to get scarce.
Yeah. I fare well with altitude and in the summer I'm frequently above 10k without an issue--but it certainly makes a difference in how fast I can go. That final ascent to the Mt. Charleston summit doesn't look steep--but the summit is just below 12k, you really feel it!

Thats outstanding! I live at about 8k’ altitude, and any kind of exertion at 10k knocks me down real fast. I can see the summits of 4 or 5 “fourteeners” from my living room, and have only ever summited one - a walk-up.
I don't do mountains that aren't walk-ups, but if it's a walk-up I'm interested.

#### Elixir

Long’s Peak has some deceptively easy routes. I say deceptive because it seems a lot of people get complacent, then dead.
The peaks nearest me are the Collegiates, Shavano and Tebeguache. I’ve never been higher than I could ride a horse on any of them.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I believe the FAA requires oxygen above 10k feet.

Someone may complain about a neighbor's generator sending fumes into his house, but is complacent about his car's exhaust going into the atmosphere.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I believe the FAA requires oxygen above 10k feet.

Someone may complain about a neighbor's generator sending fumes into his house, but is complacent about his car's exhaust going into the atmosphere.
The FAA is playing is safe, ensuring that a pilot is not at all impaired. Furthermore, that's a standard for everyone--some of us fare better than others. I have a SIL that I would not take to the local 12k- summit even if she were capable of the hike--I know she doesn't fare too well with altitude. And I'm talking about a walk-up--nothing where a slight impairment to complex reaction time will matter.

There is also the issue of how fast you go up--the slower you go up the better off you will be. You'll have a lot more chance of success on climbing Kilimanjaro on the 9-day route than the 5-day route. In both cases the hardest day is exactly the same--the trails converge. It's that you spent an extra 4 days at high elevation.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Himalayan Sherpas and indigenous people in the Andes have genetic adaptations for high altitude living.

Maybe Loren has ancestors from the Himalayas or Andes.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
If I were not reluctant to exacerbate this hijack, I would tout Jon Krakauer's very well-written book Into Thin Air. I know zero about climbing but still appreciated this true account of people who willingly placed themselves into a situation where survival was uncertain. The book is much better than the movie.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Himalayan Sherpas and indigenous people in the Andes have genetic adaptations for high altitude living.

Maybe Loren has ancestors from the Himalayas or Andes.
Genetics shows no such relatives. I don't think I'm that unusual--there are a lot of us who hike in the 10k'+ area in the summer. I have never gone up there without seeing someone else on the same trail.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
In the 80s when living in Portalnd I used to go up n Mt hood with crampons and ice axe. Around 10k feet. I never felt it, but that s differnt tan living at 1ok feet or higher.

People in their 0s have summited Mt Rainer, about 14k feet..

The test woud be taking a cognitive and physical equity test at low altitude and at 10k feet after a day.

Or you can measure your level walking heart rate and blood oxygen level at low altitude and 10k feet to see how harder your heart is working. Meters are cheap and in drug stores. It would be a good experiment.

My heart efficiency metric is 30% insted of a typical; 80%. I would have a hard time at high altitude. I would not get enough O2 around my body.