Climate Change(d)?

[steve_bank]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.

It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..

 

[steve_bank]

The proposed desalination plant for Orange County, California was unanimously rejected by the environmental board.

In California I undestand some of holes in ground they hode their heads in are quite comfortable. Air codition,ing and TV.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.

It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..

Which is why you have to be careful with your discharge water--it needs to be dispersed adequately to avoid such problems. Simply sticking a pipe out into the ocean is going to create an ecological mess.

 

[bilby]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.

It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..

Which is why you have to be careful with your discharge water--it needs to be dispersed adequately to avoid such problems. Simply sticking a pipe out into the ocean is going to create an ecological mess.

Yes, it needs to be addressed; But it’s not a particularly difficult engineering problem. The waste brine is literally a drop in the ocean, you just need to make it mix in a bit before it reaches any sensitive habitats.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Pacific Crest Trail may become 'all but impossible' to hike as climate change intensifies

Climate change is pummeling the Pacific Crest Trail in California, with everything from...

www.sfchronicle.com

For those who still deny that things are changing. Note that this article is about hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, but look about 1/3 of the way down, a set of 4 maps. Note how the highest temperatures have risen substantially between maps #1 and #2--that's historical change, not projection (maps #3 and #4 are projections.) Fairly small changes overall end up making much bigger changes of the extremes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.

Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.

Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.

 

[bilby]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.

Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.

Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.

Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m³, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities.

The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as $0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.

Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.

Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.

Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m³, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities.

The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as $0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.

There is no silver bullet, so desalination is going to be part of the solution, but I'm not certain just how big. Potable reuse could cover a lot more ground, for a good deal cheaper.

 

[bilby]

The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.

Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.

Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.

Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m³, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities.

The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as $0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.

There is no silver bullet, so desalination is going to be part of the solution, but I'm not certain just how big. Potable reuse could cover a lot more ground, for a good deal cheaper.

Great.

The ultimate backstop is desalination, and as long as LA remains on the Pacific coast, it ensures that the city cannot run out of water, even if all other sources fail.

But I am all for finding cheaper and better solutions where possible.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It still amazes me given the facts that people and government officials are so in denial. Watering the lawn and washing the car are restricted to a couple days a week? Is this sane? The water is running out. FFS conserve the water you have. You really have to wash your fucking car? Holy shitfuck! The horror of having a car with dust or pollen!

But this problem has been in the making for a long time and isn't going to change. The scarcity of water isn't really the problem. The problem is the attitude and inability to grasp reality.

 

[steve_bank]

Watched a segment on Lake Powell and Lake Mead. It really is serious. Hydro power may shut down. Agriculture and our food suppkt will be affected.

What is the watts/liter for desalinization? That peaky question, how much energy?

Water supply and sanitation in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Water supply and sanitation in Saudi Arabia is characterized by challenges and achievements. One of the main challenges is water scarcity. In order to overcome water scarcity, substantial investments have been undertaken in seawater desalination, water distribution, sewerage and wastewater treatment. Today about 50% of drinking water comes from desalination, 40% from the mining of non-renewable groundwater and only 10% from surface water in the mountainous southwest of the country. The capital Riyadh, located in the heart of the country, is supplied with desalinated water pumped from the Persian Gulf over a distance of 467 km. Water is provided almost for free to residential users. Despite improvements, service quality remains poor, for example in terms of continuity of supply. Another challenge is weak institutional capacity and governance, reflecting general characteristics of the public sector in Saudi Arabia. Among the achievements is a significant increase in desalination, and in access to water, the expansion of wastewater treatment, as well as the use of treated effluent for the irrigation of urban green spaces, and for agriculture.

Since 2000, the government has increasingly relied on the private sector to operate water and sanitation infrastructure, beginning with desalination and wastewater treatment plants. Since the creation of the National Water Company (NWC) in 2008, the operation of urban water distribution systems in the four largest cities has gradually been delegated to private companies as well. The apparent paradox of very low water tariffs and water privatization is explained by government subsidies. The government buys desalinated water from private operators at high prices and resells the bulk water for free. Likewise, the government directly pays private operators that run the water distribution and sewer systems of large cities under management contracts. Furthermore, it fully subsidizes investments in water distribution and sewers. Water utilities are expected to recover an increasing share of their costs from the sale of treated effluent to industries. In January 2016 water and sewer tariffs were increased for the first time in more than a decade, which resulted in discontent and in the sacking of the Minister of Water and Energy Abdullah Al-Hussayen in April 2016.[3]

The outrageous plan to haul icebergs to Africa

Some experts are seriously considering a proposal to harvest Antarctic icebergs and haul them to Cape Town. What are the chances it will succeed?

www.bbc.com

As South Africa faces ever more severe water shortages, some experts are seriously considering a proposal to harvest Antarctic icebergs and haul them to Cape Town. What are the chances it will succeed?

Saudi Arabia has considered it as well.

What's the story with Saudi Arabia and icebergs?




In the 1970s, Saudi Prince Mohamed Al-Faisal wanted to tow an Antarctic iceberg across the equator to Saudi Arabia, and funded two international conferences on the subject. The EU received proposals in the 2010s to tow an iceberg from Newfoundland to the Canary Islands.Sep 18, 2018

 

[Jokodo]

Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.

 

[Swammerdami]

Some experts regard shortage of fresh water in Northern California to be at least as big a threat as the shortage in Southern California.

The Sacramento River from the north and San Joaquin River from the south merge into a big delta which was salty part of the year even before man intervened. (Cities as far from the ocean as Sacramento or Stockton are barely above sea level. In fact much of the area would already be a huge brackish marsh/lake if not protected by many levees.) These rivers provide drinking water to over half California's population, and much of their water is diverted for irrigation. As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.

 

[Politesse]

As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.

And the political lobby of the ag industry in the Valley counties is such that any conversation about calculated river management is political suicide. The farmers would happily see the San Joaquin and Sacramento rivers go completely dry over the summer rather than surrender any of their water rights.

 

[steve_bank]

As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.

And the political lobby of the ag industry in the Valley counties is such that any conversation about calculated river management is political suicide. The farmers would happily see the San Joaquin and Sacramento rivers go completely dry over the summer rather than surrender any of their water rights.

Water politics goes back to the1 9th century does it not?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.

Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.

 

[steve_bank]

Saudi desalinization is probably powered by oil, fossil fuel.

Hpow much more electrical capacity will Ca need for large scale desalination. As with most things, if energy is not feasible then all ohter isuues are moot.

If you have some kind of opn area system how many m^2 does it take?

 

[Jokodo]

Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.

Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.

Because Watts is not a unit of energy, it's a unit of power.

 

[bilby]

Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.

Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.

And it’s a pretty small cost. About $0.00085/litre.

If you are a householder, and can’t afford that, then you have much bigger problems - just wait till you find out what food costs.

If you are an irrigator and you can’t afford that, then tough shit, your business isn’t viable. Move elsewhere, or go into another line of business. The wider community has no reason nor obligation to make your unviable business into a success.

 

[bilby]

Saudi desalinization is probably powered by oil, fossil fuel.

Hpow much more electrical capacity will Ca need for large scale desalination. As with most things, if energy is not feasible then all ohter isuues are moot.

Then they should stop closing down perfectly good nuclear power plants, and build a few new ones.

California has no need to be energy poor; Like Germany, their dependence upon imports for energy is entirely self inflicted and unnecessary.