College sex tribunal gets it right for a change

[Derec]

He said it was consensual. She said she blacked out. U-Va. had to decide: Was it assault?
Luckily they decided it was not. They were both drunk. It was mutual and consensual at the time. Women should not get to retroactively withdraw consent they freely gave at the time. And being drunk does not make one incapable of giving consent, because if it did, she would be a rapist as well.

 

[Trausti]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

 

[Angry Floof]

He said it was consensual. She said she blacked out. U-Va. had to decide: Was it assault?
Luckily they decided it was not. They were both drunk. It was mutual and consensual at the time. Women should not get to retroactively withdraw consent they freely gave at the time. And being drunk does not make one incapable of giving consent, because if it did, she would be a rapist as well.

Being blacked out is not consent. If a woman is blacked out, don't touch her, rapist.

Now send nudes.

 

[laughing dog]

He said it was consensual. She said she blacked out. U-Va. had to decide: Was it assault?
Luckily they decided it was not. They were both drunk. It was mutual and consensual at the time. Women should not get to retroactively withdraw consent they freely gave at the time. And being drunk does not make one incapable of giving consent, because if it did, she would be a rapist as well.

Since we do not know what happened, we cannot judge whether they got it "right" or not. There does not seem to be any dispute that Ms. Lind (the victim) was so drunk that she did not know what was going on when the other person came into the bathroom. That suggests she was too drunk to give consent. The alleged rapist seems to have a pretty good memory of what happened which suggests that maybe he was not true drunk to give consent.

In any event, there is simply no way to know whether U. of Va got it "right" or "wrong".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is "blacked out" an accurate term here. Just because the memory is blacked out doesn't mean there isn't a case of a person being conscious. Kind of like driving on the highway and you are thinking about something. Then all of a sudden you can't recall driving the last minute or two, but you clearly had. There is 'passed out' or 'incapacitated' like the last case raised here.

High schools need to step sex ed / alcohol ed up a notch to really get this shit down kids throats. As the article notes, it is a mess, which often can not be corroborated because sex is usually behind closed doors.

He said it was consensual. She said she blacked out. U-Va. had to decide: Was it assault?
Luckily they decided it was not. They were both drunk. It was mutual and consensual at the time. Women should not get to retroactively withdraw consent they freely gave at the time. And being drunk does not make one incapable of giving consent, because if it did, she would be a rapist as well.

Yup, guy musn't be a Muslim. Also, what is the basis for the "for a change" part? Do you subscribe to Campus Allegation weekly or something? Or perhaps you are omnipresent?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

 

[prideandfall]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

because their campus is their responsibility and it's up to them to decide what is or isn't behavior which justifies expelling you.
they're not sending anyone to prison so it's not them pretending to be the law, so i don't get what you're on about - are you suggesting that universities shouldn't have any say or input into the conduct of the students on their school grounds?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

because their campus is their responsibility and it's up to them to decide what is or isn't behavior which justifies expelling you.
they're not sending anyone to prison so it's not them pretending to be the law, so i don't get what you're on about - are you suggesting that universities shouldn't have any say or input into the conduct of the students on their school grounds?

I am saying that they should cooperate and aid the police. If this was an actual rape, then this man should be facing actual rape charges and if found guilty, go to jail. They should not be conducting some kangaroo court at the school and they should not be making any declaration that he raped her or not. That is not up to them. That is up to a court of competent jurisdiction. The most they should do is say he acted inappropriately (if he did) and against school rules (if he did). These accusations put a giant black mark on him, his reputation, his future, etc, which he can't fairly argue against, since this isn't a real court with real protections for the accused. They are playing with fire in cases like this if they go and say anything about her being "raped" by him unless and until that is found by an actual court.

Article appears to be behind a pay wall. Was this on school grounds?

 

[whichphilosophy]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

They should not, and effectively the US has a parallel legal system.

 

[RavenSky]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

They are not acting as "legal tribunals". They are deciding whether their has been a violation of their own university code of ethics/conduct policies - same as if someone is plagiarizing or stealing from the university.

Of course, we (this board in general, not you personally) have this exchange every.single.time this situation comes up, but next time - guaranteed - someone of you will bitch and moan about the "legal tribunals" again.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The alleged rapist seems to have a pretty good memory of what happened which suggests that maybe he was not true drunk to give consent.

The problem lies in determining where the line is for "too drunk to give consent". Certainly blacked out is beyond the line, but can one be beyond the line but still remember it?

 

[laughing dog]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

Every time this subject comes up, we get the same people spouting the same question. Every time they get the same answer - universities have codes of conduct for students. U. of VA has a strict honor code. The university has the right to expect students to live up (or down) to the code of conduct. The university has the right and responsibility to enforce its code of conduct.

 

[RavenSky]

The alleged rapist seems to have a pretty good memory of what happened which suggests that maybe he was not true drunk to give consent.

The problem lies in determining where the line is for "too drunk to give consent". Certainly blacked out is beyond the line, but can one be beyond the line but still remember it?

Very possibly. For instance, someone who is "too drunk" may not have the coordination to fight off an attacker yet may still remember all of it.

I think the bigger problem is that IF the guy is sincerely not a predator rapist (and frankly I think those types in these situations are vanishingly small), there is no way for him to know if she is "too drunk" by any measure other than completely passed out. And, of course, we've seen recently how even "completely passed out" doesn't mean squat to rape apologists (including the Judge in that case)

 

[J842P]

because their campus is their responsibility and it's up to them to decide what is or isn't behavior which justifies expelling you.
they're not sending anyone to prison so it's not them pretending to be the law, so i don't get what you're on about - are you suggesting that universities shouldn't have any say or input into the conduct of the students on their school grounds?

I am saying that they should cooperate and aid the police. If this was an actual rape, then this man should be facing actual rape charges and if found guilty, go to jail. They should not be conducting some kangaroo court at the school and they should not be making any declaration that he raped her or not. That is not up to them. That is up to a court of competent jurisdiction. The most they should do is say he acted inappropriately (if he did) and against school rules (if he did). These accusations put a giant black mark on him, his reputation, his future, etc, which he can't fairly argue against, since this isn't a real court with real protections for the accused. They are playing with fire in cases like this if they go and say anything about her being "raped" by him unless and until that is found by an actual court.

Article appears to be behind a pay wall. Was this on school grounds?

No, it was on an off-campus student house. I was actually at UVA this past year, and I went there for undergrad too. Block Party, as it's called, is an absolute shit-show.

 

[J842P]

Absolutely agree. Why do universities even get involved in this stuff? This should be up to police and courts.

Every time this subject comes up, we get the same people spouting the same question. Every time they get the same answer - universities have codes of conduct for students. U. of VA has a strict honor code. The university has the right to expect students to live up (or down) to the code of conduct. The university has the right and responsibility to enforce its code of conduct.

This doesn't fall under the Honor Code. The Honor Code is covers three things: lying, cheating, and stealing. Basically, it only ever really get's brought up for cheating. At least, that is the only cases I've ever heard of, but I wasn't involved in the Honor Committee, which is enitrely student-lead committe that handles those three offenses. Everything else falls under the University Standards of Conduct, which is handled by the University Judiciary Committee. Sexual assault would fall under UJC.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Because our government is increasingly avoiding bothering with the pesky constitution that requires things like search warrants and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is merely one of many examples.

The feminists harp on a supposed college rape epidemic (reality: a woman is less likely to be raped in college than one of the same age not in college) so they throw suspects out of school with kangaroo "courts".

 

[abaddon]

Is "blacked out" an accurate term here. Just because the memory is blacked out doesn't mean there isn't a case of a person being conscious. Kind of like driving on the highway and you are thinking about something. Then all of a sudden you can't recall driving the last minute or two, but you clearly had. There is 'passed out' or 'incapacitated' like the last case raised here.

That is correct. "Blacked out" doesn’t mean unconscious or necessarily fucked-up drunk. It means awake though intoxicated (maybe a lot but maybe not so much) but the memory function bit of the brain just isn’t retaining memory. No one else is going to know you’re in a blacked out state. I used to drink very often and very much when I was younger. Sometimes someone would try continuing a discussion that we had had but which I didn't remember; they didn't seem to think I had been all that drunk. Other times, people would say "man you were really drunk' and I wouldn't remember that either... I wouldn't have known I was shit-faced or not after waking with little or no memory of the night before, and hang-overs are not reliable indicators of drunkness-level either.

So, from OTHER people giving me indications how drunk I seemed, I gather sometimes I seemed "there" enough to interact at least relatively well socially, but yet other times... not. I never really knew, because having blacked out meant I could only ever guess at what my state might have been.

 

[J842P]

Still don't understand why universities are acting like legal tribunals. A crime is a crime. Universities should stick thinks like plagiarism.

Because our government is increasingly avoiding bothering with the pesky constitution that requires things like search warrants and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is merely one of many examples.

The feminists harp on a supposed college rape epidemic (reality: a woman is less likely to be raped in college than one of the same age not in college) so they throw suspects out of school with kangaroo "courts".

This isn't a constitutional issue.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Because our government is increasingly avoiding bothering with the pesky constitution that requires things like search warrants and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is merely one of many examples.

The feminists harp on a supposed college rape epidemic (reality: a woman is less likely to be raped in college than one of the same age not in college) so they throw suspects out of school with kangaroo "courts".

This isn't a constitutional issue.

Accusations of rape, where charges are brought should be tried in the courts, not the Universities.

 

[prideandfall]

This isn't a constitutional issue.

Accusations of rape, where charges are brought should be tried in the courts, not the Universities.

universities, which can set whatever standard they want and expel students for whatever reason they want, are not putting people on trial or convicting anyone of anything.

this is the same sort of moronic right-wing shit-for-brains freakout that makes people say unbelievably stupid things like "cancelling glenn beck's show is a violation of the 1st amendment" or whatever utter pig-fucking stupidity gets spouted when some jackass says something retarded and doesn't get to be on TV anymore because of it.