Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[DrZoidberg]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them do. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

I think anti-Semitism is necessary to hand wave away the deaths of tens of thousands of Semitic people in Gaza, most of them children and their non-combatant mothers.

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

 

[Arctish]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them do. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

I think anti-Semitism is necessary to hand wave away the deaths of tens of thousands of Semitic people in Gaza, most of them children and their non-combatant mothers.

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Live updates: Rutgers protesters clear tents, applaud peaceful resolution to talks

Protesters at Rutgers University in New Brunswick were ordered to clear by university heads, after encampment forced some finals to be rescheduled.

www.northjersey.com

 

[DrZoidberg]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them do. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

I think anti-Semitism is necessary to hand wave away the deaths of tens of thousands of Semitic people in Gaza, most of them children and their non-combatant mothers.

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them do. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

I think anti-Semitism is necessary to hand wave away the deaths of tens of thousands of Semitic people in Gaza, most of them children and their non-combatant mothers.

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen?

We already said that. In this thread. And in others. But that doesn't stop you from calling people Nazis.

Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on.

Oh, I get it. You want to destroy Rafah, let Israel reign supreme and anyone who disagrees is a Nazi.

We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks.

That would be a dumb debate to have in this thread and I'd say out-of-scope.

But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, ...

That isn't how root causes work. You are identifying a proximal cause, not a root cause. A root cause goes way, way back. I'd also add there is not a SINGLE root cause, but multiple factors much of it religious animosity between rival factions, but not all of it.

that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

Well, at a high level, I agree with you that more than simply divest from Israel is needed, but the specifics you propose are highly biased and continue the occupation and other factors that are more suffering and that suffering will cause more violence. Since this is a factor that you do not understand, you cannot see it. Calling everyone else a Nazi who disagrees with you doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to think clearly.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

If you can't behave yourself, then gtfo.

 

[Arctish]

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

You're talking about a One State solution in which Palestinians are oppressed non-citizens forced to live in perpetual poverty in walled off ghettoes, or forced out by the Israelis.

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

Define the term 'Semitic'.

I get the feeling you think it's a reference to religious belief rather than ethnic origin. I haven't been criticizing anyone's religion, unless you think Zionism is a religion.

I haven't been criticizing anyone based on their ethnic origin, either. So you'll have to explain what you're referring to when you use the term 'anti-Semitic'.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Australia

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/02/australia/university-student-protests-palestinian-gaza-intl-hnk/index.html

Australian student protests show US campus divisions over Gaza war are going global​

Brisbane/Sydney, Australia CNN —
The grassy expanse of the University of Queensland’s Great Court has long been the center of student life at the Australian state’s biggest university.

Now it’s a gathering point for rival camps pitched around 100 meters (328 feet) from each other – one populated by supporters of the Students for Palestine UQ, and another smaller cluster of tents with the Israeli flag among others strung between trees.

In the past 10 days, pro-Palestinian protest camps have appeared at seven universities around Australia – from Melbourne and Sydney in the country’s southeast, to Adelaide in its center, and Perth along the western coast.

United Kingdom

More UK students occupy campuses, in Gaza protest

Growing numbers of students occupy several UK campuses, to protest against the war in Gaza.

www.bbc.com

Dublin

Campus protests: Dublin students' union fined €214k over Gaza protests

TCD issues fine over loss of income as a result of recent blockades of a tourist attraction.

www.bbc.com

France

Paris regional leader suspends Sciences Po funding over Gaza protests

French left denounces rightwinger Valérie Pécresse’s move against prestigious university

www.theguardian.com

 

[DrZoidberg]

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

You're talking about a One State solution in which Palestinians are oppressed non-citizens forced to live in perpetual poverty in walled off ghettoes, or forced out by the Israelis.

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

The suicide bombings went from a problem to rare after that wall came up. I think, for the safety of all Israelis (Jews and Muslims) that the wall stays

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

Lol, genocide. Israel is the only side in this conflict not trying to carry out a genocide

I suggest you try reading up a bit on Hammas

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

Define the term 'Semitic'.

I get the feeling you think it's a reference to religious belief rather than ethnic origin. I haven't been criticizing anyone's religion, unless you think Zionism is a religion.

I haven't been criticizing anyone based on their ethnic origin, either. So you'll have to explain what you're referring to when you use the term 'anti-Semitic'.

Bla bla bla Yes, semitic refers to another group than the opposite of antisemitic. Because that's how the meaning of words drift over time

So?

 

[Elixir]

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

Yeah and Bibi has known that the entire time he has been handing them millions.
It is not in Bibi’s interest to let one minute arrive where Israel is not in a hyper vigilant state of near emergency, lest he be ousted and jailed.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't want to give the impression of endorsing absolutely everything about these protests just because I keep linking them.

So, to reiterate some things I have said

• It's important to note the protests are going on, even if one does not agree with them
• The leadership of the protests has too many associations with outside groups that have a unilateral extremist message
• We need more people with signs "promote peace" "free the hostages and Palestine" and "free Palestine and the hostages."
• Still, the protests are important because they provide a counter-weight to the default normalization of the slaughter of Palestinians
• The default continues to be absolutist support of the right-wing of Israel which is committing a de facto ethnic cleansing in Gaza
• The protests CAN lead to a better world
• Reactionary opposition is over-correcting legislation to declare certain speech anti-semitic that is not necessarily anti-semitic to continue bias
• Hamas is not my ally. The right-wing of Israel is not my ally. The left in Israel might be my ally. The Palestinian Authority is not my ally. But the Palestinian Authority is better than Hamas.

If I were to endorse something in this thread, it would probably be Bernie Sanders' statement.

 

[TomC]

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

This is so important.
I consider all the resources put into missiles and tunnels and weapons to be looted from poor Gazans. Kind of an extension of the war crimes of using them as human shields.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

the Gazan counterpart to Bibi knows that he is not much at risk of prosecution.

Heh, right. He's only at risk of summary elimination 24/7.

 

[laughing dog]

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

That analysis is a combination of ignorance and wishful thinking. In Gaza, the resources put into missiles, tunnels and weapons were given for missiles, tunnels and weapons. Nor is it clear that even if Gaza had been peaceful, without trust, it is not clear that the gov't of Israel would have allowed the necessary resource flows and opportunity.

Palestinians in the West Bank are poor for a number of reasons, none of which have to do with resources put into missiles, tunnels and weapons.

 

[Elixir]

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way.

Okay, here's where I see a disconnect. TomC wants to view them as one and the same, interchangeable and co-responsible.
I think that accepting that also implies that every Israeli civilian is a combatant complicit in Bibi's genocide and is a valid target for elimination.

 

[TomC]

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way.

Okay, here's where I see a disconnect. TomC wants to view them as one and the same, interchangeable and co-responsible.
I think that accepting that also implies that every Israeli civilian is a combatant complicit in Bibi's genocide and is a valid target for elimination.

I've not done that.
What I have pointed out is that there's no clear division between Gazans and Hamas. Hamas are Gazans. Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term. And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

That's in stark contrast to Israel and nearly everywhere else.
Tom
ETA ~I wonder if anyone will bother to correct your use of the term genocide?"

 

[Elixir]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

 

[TomC]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

It appears that Tom agrees with Hamas on at least one of their core principles. Repeat elections aren't really necessary in order to keep Hamas in power, because we already know that they would just vote to keep the ones in power who don't think that elections are necessary.

 

[TomC]

Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

Virtually everyone suffering is suffering from the choices made by Gazan leadership.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It appears that Tom agrees with Hamas on at least one of their core principles. Repeat elections aren't really necessary in order to keep Hamas in power, because we already know that they would just vote to keep the ones in power who don't think that elections are necessary.

What possible reason would you have to misrepresent me that thoroughly?

Other than you don't like the reality...
Tom