Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Elixir]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

It appears that Tom agrees with Hamas on at least one of their core principles. Repeat elections aren't really necessary in order to keep Hamas in power, because we already know that they would just vote to keep the ones in power who don't think that elections are necessary.

Right, what I was thinking.
Why waste any of the precious US dollars Bibi gave them on foregone elections?

Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

Virtually everyone suffering is suffering from the choices made by Gazan leadership.
Tom

Unresponsive.

 

[Politesse]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

 

[TomC]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

… until (s)he shoots you.
Cultivating Hamas for 18 years has been Bibi’s biggest mistake. Now, the ones born to Hamas militants on day one of Hamas are 18 yrs old, if they have survived. And guess where their sympathy lies?

 

[Copernicus]

It appears that Tom agrees with Hamas on at least one of their core principles. Repeat elections aren't really necessary in order to keep Hamas in power, because we already know that they would just vote to keep the ones in power who don't think that elections are necessary.

What possible reason would you have to misrepresent me that thoroughly?

Other than you don't like the reality...
Tom

I said "appears", because that is the perception I get when you say things like:

What I have pointed out is that there's no clear division between Gazans and Hamas. Hamas are Gazans. Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term. And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

That's in stark contrast to Israel and nearly everywhere else.

 

[TomC]

It appears that Tom agrees with Hamas on at least one of their core principles. Repeat elections aren't really necessary in order to keep Hamas in power, because we already know that they would just vote to keep the ones in power who don't think that elections are necessary.

What possible reason would you have to misrepresent me that thoroughly?

Other than you don't like the reality...
Tom

I said "appears", because that is the perception I get when you say things like:

What I have pointed out is that there's no clear division between Gazans and Hamas. Hamas are Gazans. Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term. And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

That's in stark contrast to Israel and nearly everywhere else.

Other than filtering what I said through what you want to hear,
I can't imagine why you drew the conclusion you described.
I would love to see a peaceful, prosperous, democracy in Palestine. But everything I actually said is demonstrably true, even if you don't like it.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

You are talking about all of Eretz Israel being part of Israel, with Israel in control of the borders, airspace, territorial waters, electrical and water supplies, natural resources, commerce, immigration, etc., and the non-Jewish Palestinians having no real authority at all.

IOW, just like Gaza right now but more ruthless and oppressive.

That is not a path to peace.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

You're talking about a One State solution in which Palestinians are oppressed non-citizens forced to live in perpetual poverty in walled off ghettoes, or forced out by the Israelis.

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

They would have to be allowed to prosper. No more Zionist seizing of productive farmland, no more destruction of Palestinian wells or diverting of Palestinian water to Israel, no more Israeli settlements built in the West Bank, no more interference with the importing or exporting of material goods, no more fuckery by cutting off electricity to Gaza, or closing the borders without notice, or preventing foreign aid from reaching people, no more diverting natural gas from Palestinian territorial waters to Israel, or mining Palestinian minerals for transfer to Israel without paying royalties, etc. ,etc.

Israel has to either back off and allow Palestinians to prosper (Two State solution) or go for the One State solution and commit to treating every person with the same level of justice, fairness, and support regardless of whether they're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Neo-pagan, or whatever.

The only other alternatives are the Rogue State solution (commit genocide) or the Failed State option in which Israel is defeated and dismantled.

The suicide bombings went from a problem to rare after that wall came up. I think, for the safety of all Israelis (Jews and Muslims) that the wall stays

Fine, as long as it is built along the Armistice Line that Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community recognized as Israel's borders when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and Israelis stay on their side of it.

I doubt the rightwing Zionist faction led by Netanyahu would agree to that. They will have to be defeated at the polls before there's a realistic chance that a separation wall will solve anything.

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

Lol, genocide. Israel is the only side in this conflict not trying to carry out a genocide

I suggest you try reading up a bit on Hammas

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

I suggest you read up on my posts in this thread.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

Define the term 'Semitic'.

I get the feeling you think it's a reference to religious belief rather than ethnic origin. I haven't been criticizing anyone's religion, unless you think Zionism is a religion.

I haven't been criticizing anyone based on their ethnic origin, either. So you'll have to explain what you're referring to when you use the term 'anti-Semitic'.

Bla bla bla Yes, semitic refers to another group than the opposite of antisemitic. Because that's how the meaning of words drift over time

So?

So you can't define the term you're using, therefore you can't show that it's applicable when and where you're using it. You're simply throwing it out there to be offensive.

 

[TomC]

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

… until (s)he shoots you.
Cultivating Hamas for 18 years has been Bibi’s biggest mistake. Now, the ones born to Hamas militants on day one of Hamas are 18 yrs old, if they have survived. And guess where their sympathy lies?

Depends on what your goal is.
Given Bibi's life history and background, using Hamas to destroy Palestinians would make sense.
It certainly worked.

Yeah, I'm a cynical old curmudgeon.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

A child dragged in front of a soldier as a blockade for bullets is a human shield. A child living in the house they live in is not a human shield. Everyone fucking grows up somewhere, Tom. There's a reason the deliberate targeting of civilians is called a war crime.

 

[TomC]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

A child dragged in front of a soldier as a blockade for bullets is a human shield. A child living in the house they live in is not a human shield. Everyone fucking grows up somewhere, Tom. There's a reason the deliberate targeting of civilians is called a war crime.

Bullshit.
The kids are being used as human shields no matter where they are.
Living in a house adjacent to a missile launcher makes them a human shield.

Frankly, living anywhere in Hamas controlled territory makes people human shields to some degree.

I saw a video of a student demonstrator yelling "We are Hamas!". I understand hyperbolic symbolism, I'm sure she wasn't. But I heard her yelling "We are war criminals!"
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

 

[TomC]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.
Regardless of why or how strong the support, it's been enough.

I'm confident that a bunch of it is because Hamas is violent to the point of psychotic. It will require a ton of outside support to get rid of Hamas and their ilk. But as long as the international community keeps clutching their pearls and bitching about IDF, instead of helping get rid of Hamas and their ilk, it's not gonna happen.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.
Regardless of why or how strong the support, it's been enough.

I'm confident that a bunch of it is because Hamas is violent to the point of psychotic. It will require a ton of outside support to get rid of Hamas and their ilk. But as long as the international community keeps clutching their pearls and bitching about IDF, instead of helping get rid of Hamas and their ilk, it's not gonna happen.
Tom

No, Laughing Dog got it right. You take the position that Hamas is in the "18th year of a 4 year term" as some kind of proof that that is where it would be if Gazans could genuinely vote in a fair election with Hamas on the ballot. You ignore the fact that Hamas was tolerated by the Likud-dominated Israeli government, because it weakened the Palestinian Authority, splitting the opposition among Palestinians to the illegal West Bank settlements by Israelis. Israelis themselves understood this strategy very well, and that is why there is now strong anti-Netanyahu sentiment in Israel. Allowing Hamas to remain in power, receive funds from foreign supporters, and build up their ability to launch a successful sneak attack on October 7 is laid at Netanyahu's doorstep. That's one reason why he doesn't want the war to end. As long as there is conflict, he stays in control.

 

[TomC]

You take the position that Hamas is in the "18th year of a 4 year term" as some kind of proof that that is where it would be if Gazans could genuinely vote in a fair election with Hamas on the ballot.

I've said no such thing.

I don't think it's possible to have a free and fair ballot in Gaza at this time, or for the foreseeable future. Whether Gazans want one or not. I'm confident that Hamas would be more likely to kill any potential threat to their power and grifting.
That's why I think it would take outside help to give Palestinians in general, and Gazans in particular, a representative government.

Those are quite uncommon in the Muslim world. I believe it's because Islam is a primitive tribal culture, with a strong authoritarian streak. Not everyone by any means, but a bunch.
Enough.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

And there's no way to distinguish between someone who actively supports Hamas without joining and "official" members, whatever that means.

A five year old cannot be meaningfully called a member of a terrorist group.

Absolutely not. But they can, and are, used as human shields by Gazan leadership and you know it.
Tom

A child dragged in front of a soldier as a blockade for bullets is a human shield. A child living in the house they live in is not a human shield. Everyone fucking grows up somewhere, Tom. There's a reason the deliberate targeting of civilians is called a war crime.

Bullshit.
The kids are being used as human shields no matter where they are.
Living in a house adjacent to a missile launcher makes them a human shield.

Frankly, living anywhere in Hamas controlled territory makes people human shields to some degree.

I saw a video of a student demonstrator yelling "We are Hamas!". I understand hyperbolic symbolism, I'm sure she wasn't. But I heard her yelling "We are war criminals!"
Tom

You are in serious denial of what is happening on a weekly basis in Gaza. If you refuse to tall about what's actually happening rather than what you wish were happening, there's very little hope of productive conversation.

 

[Elixir]

I don't think it's possible to have a free and fair ballot in Gaza at this time, or for the foreseeable future.

Nor was it possible in 2010.
Israel fucked up. BIGLY.
When Trump blew up the treaty w/Iran the entire motivational landscape of the ME changed. But seven years later, Israel was still acting like their known Iranian proxy (Hamas) was their pal.

At some point, the elephant in the room is going to have to be fed

 

[TomC]

You are in serious denial of what is happening on a weekly basis in Gaza. If you refuse to tall about what's actually happening rather than what you wish were happening, there's very little hope of productive conversation.

What do you think I am in denial about?
Hamas' use of human shields, including little kids?
Seriously?
Hamas' starting the current conflagration by building up a military installation and then attacking Israel with it?
What?

I think you are the one in denial.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Israel fucked up. BIGLY.

How did Israel fuck up, if the goal was to trash Gaza?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Hamas' starting the current conflagration by building up a military installation

Wut?
Hamas bought a bunch of rockets, rolling in US/Israeli cash as they were. Sent dozens of thugs - not hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands - into Israel who were able to wreak unforetold carnage that was literally foretold, and THAT is a proof that Israel fucked up.
“They started it!”’is so lame at this point. They’ve killed so many people that they look like bloodthirsty jerks, no better than Hamas. I think most Israelis know it, too.

 

[TomC]

When Trump blew up the treaty w/Iran the entire motivational landscape of the ME changed. But seven years later, Israel was still acting like their known Iranian proxy (Hamas) was their pal.

Blowing up the treaty with Iran started well before that.
When Obama first described it, the Teaparty leadership announced that they wouldn't support it. Trump just put the last nail in the coffin of peaceful relationships with Iran.

And now we've got what we've got.

Teapartiers like Trump demonstrated that the USA cannot be trusted to keep an agreement for longer than a political cycle.
Tom