Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[TomC]

Hamas bought a bunch of rockets, rolling in US/Israeli cash as they were.

So giving aid to Palestinians was a huge fuck up?
Not if the goal is the destruction of Gaza.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.

That is a fact, but it becomes an opinion when preceded by “Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be….”what you wrote. It is very stupid or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

 

[Elixir]

Teapartiers like Trump demonstrated that the USA cannot be trusted to keep an agreement for longer than a political cycle.

Yup. It’s a tough spot for democracy.

 

[TomC]

“They started it!”’is so lame at this point. They’ve killed so many people that they look like bloodthirsty jerks, no better than Hamas. I think most Israelis know it, too.

If the goal was the destruction of Gaza would you say Likud failed?
I wouldn't.

Of course, Bibi and Likud can't just come out and say that. But they couldn't have done it without Gazan help. If they'd launched this battle on October 6, 2023 it would be a whole different narrative.
So they didn't.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.

That is a fact, but it becomes an opinion when preceded by “Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be….”what you wrote. It is very stupid or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

How many and how much do you think qualifies as "enough"?
I'm talking about the facts. Regardless of how or why, it was enough. That's all I said about that.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.

That is a fact, but it becomes an opinion when preceded by “Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be….”what you wrote. It is very stupid or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

How many and how much do you think qualifies as "enough"?
I'm talking about the facts.

No, you are not Only how long Hamas has been in power is a fact. Everything else in this particular discussion is your opinion.

 

[TomC]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.

That is a fact, but it becomes an opinion when preceded by “Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be….”what you wrote. It is very stupid or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

How many and how much do you think qualifies as "enough"?
I'm talking about the facts.

No, you are not Only how long Hamas has been in power is a fact. Everything else in this particular discussion is your opinion.

Here's another inconvenient truth.

Hamas' leadership and tactics have been well known for years. Nobody, including the UN and ICJ much less Iran, have expressed interest in supporting peace in Gaza.

Bitching at Israel for defending themselves is not a Peace Plan.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term.

"Have supported", or "supported 18 years ago",
Not "support".
Yet who is enduring the greatest suffering and death?

How could you possibly know what Gazans are thinking?
I don't claim to. I'm just pointing out facts.
Tom

"Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be in their 18th year of a 4 year term." is an opinion, not a fact.

That's pretty stupid.
It's a fact that Hamas is in the 18th year of a 4 year term.

That is a fact, but it becomes an opinion when preceded by “Enough Gazans have supported Hamas for Hamas to be….”what you wrote. It is very stupid or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

How many and how much do you think qualifies as "enough"?
I'm talking about the facts.

No, you are not Only how long Hamas has been in power is a fact. Everything else in this particular discussion is your opinion.

Here's another inconvenient truth.

Hamas' leadership and tactics have been well known for years. Nobody, including the UN and ICJ much less Iran, have expressed interest in supporting peace in Gaza.

Bitching at Israel for defending themselves is not a Peace Plan.
Tom

Are you privy to diplomatic communications? If not, your “ truth” is your opinion.

Destroying Gaza is not simply defending Israel.

 

[TomC]

Are you privy to diplomatic communications? If not, your “ truth” is your opinion.

Seriously?
You think I need access to diplomatic communications to recognize that Gaza is in shreds? Or that "Hamas", whatever that means, is in charge of Gaza?

Destroying Gaza is not simply defending Israel.

Which might be why I didn't say that.

However, destroying the military installations in Gaza is definitely defending Israel. Since Hamas is not going anywhere, destroying their abilities to launch terrorist attacks is definitely defending Israel.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Are you privy to diplomatic communications? If not, your “ truth” is your opinion.

Seriously?
You think I need access to diplomatic communications to recognize that Gaza is in shreds? Or that "Hamas", whatever that means, is in charge of Gaza?

You conveniently clipped out the part of your comment about no-one expressing interest in peace.

Destroying Gaza is not simply defending Israel.

Which might be why I didn't say that.. .

You even said Gaza is in shreds.

If you are not going to read the words in your posts and take them seriously, why should anyone read them and take them seriously?

 

[TomC]

You even said Gaza is in shreds.

If you are not going to read the words in your posts and take them seriously, why should anyone read them and take them seriously?

If I thought your opinions worth the effort,
I might go back and quote all the posters describing the situation.
"Desperate", "starving", "destroyed infrastructure", I think I remember.

If you don't think that qualifies as being "in shreds" fine I guess.
Oh well.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

You even said Gaza is in shreds.

If you are not going to read the words in your posts and take them seriously, why should anyone read them and take them seriously?

If I thought your opinions worth the effort,
I might go back and quote all the posters describing the situation.
"Desperate", "starving", "destroyed infrastructure", I think I remember.

If you don't think that qualifies as being "in shreds" fine I guess.
Oh well.
Tom

i cannot imagine how you come up with these erroneous conclusions. But it is clear to me that there is no reason to take your responses seriously.

 

[TomC]

i cannot imagine how you come up with these erroneous conclusions. But it is clear to me that there is no reason to take your responses seriously.

Conclusions like "desperate, starving, infrastructure destroyed" Gaza is described as "in shreds" and you don't understand that?

Yeah, I stopped taking your responses seriously a while back. You just illustrated why.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

You take the position that Hamas is in the "18th year of a 4 year term" as some kind of proof that that is where it would be if Gazans could genuinely vote in a fair election with Hamas on the ballot.

I've said no such thing.

I don't think it's possible to have a free and fair ballot in Gaza at this time, or for the foreseeable future. Whether Gazans want one or not. I'm confident that Hamas would be more likely to kill any potential threat to their power and grifting.
That's why I think it would take outside help to give Palestinians in general, and Gazans in particular, a representative government.

Those are quite uncommon in the Muslim world. I believe it's because Islam is a primitive tribal culture, with a strong authoritarian streak. Not everyone by any means, but a bunch.
Enough.
Tom

You snipped the part where I accused you of ignoring Israel's role in keeping Hamas in power. I've never seen you acknowledge that point or try to deny it (although I may have missed your mention of it somewhere). So I still think you just don't want to blame Israel for their role in the matter. As for the rest of it, I don't know any other reasonable interpretation of your point that Gazans and Hamas are indistinguishable and that enough Gazans have supported Hamas to make "18th year of a 4 year term" possible.

I have not said that free and fair elections are possible in Gaza at this time. Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government wanted them in the past, and I don't think either side would agree to them now. Hamas has already had outside help--with the full knowledge and acceptance of Netanyahu's government, which wanted to keep them in power.

As for your remark that "Islam is a primitive tribal culture", that is just raw Islamophobia coming to the surface. The Islamic world is far from monolithic culturally and historically. You really ought to know better than to spout such a narrow-minded stereotype of such a broad segment of humanity.

 

[TomC]

I've never seen you acknowledge that point or try to deny it (although I may have missed your mention of it somewhere).

I have pointed out several times that I believe that the Israeli government knew enough about the impending attack to do something about it before hand. Maybe not the exact scope or date, but I am very sure that they did.
I have mentioned that I believe that Zionist hardliners were giving Gazan leadership enough rope to hang the whole people.

Which Hamas has done.
I've said that many times.
Tom

 

[TomC]

As for your remark that "Islam is a primitive tribal culture", that is just raw Islamophobia coming to the surface. The Islamic world is far from monolithic culturally and historically. You really ought to know better than to spout such a narrow-minded stereotype of such a broad segment of humanity.

How many democratic and representative governments does the Muslim world have?

It's something I learned from some highly educated Muslims. They were explaining how unlikely it was that the USA invasion of Iraq would result in anything resembling a western style democracy. They predicted a great deal about what would happen afterwards and were extremely accurate.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

I've never seen you acknowledge that point or try to deny it (although I may have missed your mention of it somewhere).

I have pointed out several times that I believe that the Israeli government knew enough about the impending attack to do something about it before hand. Maybe not the exact scope or date, but I am very sure that they did.
I have mentioned that I believe that Zionist hardliners were giving Gazan leadership enough rope to hang the whole people.

Which Hamas has done.
I've said that many times.
Tom

That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about Netanyahu's strategy of enabling Hamas to control Gaza as a means of dividing and weakening Palestinian opposition to the gradual takeover of the West Bank through incremental illegal settlements. What kept Hamas in control was not so much popular support among Palestinians as support among Israeli politicians, who saw them as a useful cat's paw. This strategy has been well-known in Israel, because it was used to justify turning a blind eye to Hamas rhetoric.

As for your remark that "Islam is a primitive tribal culture", that is just raw Islamophobia coming to the surface. The Islamic world is far from monolithic culturally and historically. You really ought to know better than to spout such a narrow-minded stereotype of such a broad segment of humanity.

How many democratic and representative governments does the Muslim world have?

It's something I learned from some highly educated Muslims. They were explaining how unlikely it was that the USA invasion of Iraq would result in anything resembling a western style democracy. They predicted a great deal about what would happen afterwards and were extremely accurate.
Tom

Did you know that Iraq, Indonesia, Pakistan, and Turkey elected their governments? Those aren't the only ones. Also, see the following from Pew Research:

Most Muslims Want Democracy, Personal Freedoms, and Islam in Political Life​

 

[laughing dog]

i cannot imagine how you come up with these erroneous conclusions. But it is clear to me that there is no reason to take your responses seriously.

Conclusions like "desperate, starving, infrastructure destroyed" Gaza is described as "in shreds" and you don't understand that?

That is an example of the type of an absurd erroneous conclusion you draw. I referred to the destruction of Gaza prior to your “ in shreds” remark.

Yeah, I stopped taking your responses seriously a while back. You just illustrated why.
Tom

That certainly is one possible partial explanation.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

You are talking about all of Eretz Israel being part of Israel, with Israel in control of the borders, airspace, territorial waters, electrical and water supplies, natural resources, commerce, immigration, etc., and the non-Jewish Palestinians having no real authority at all.

IOW, just like Gaza right now but more ruthless and oppressive.

That is not a path to peace.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

You're talking about a One State solution in which Palestinians are oppressed non-citizens forced to live in perpetual poverty in walled off ghettoes, or forced out by the Israelis.

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

They would have to be allowed to prosper. No more Zionist seizing of productive farmland, no more destruction of Palestinian wells or diverting of Palestinian water to Israel, no more Israeli settlements built in the West Bank, no more interference with the importing or exporting of material goods, no more fuckery by cutting off electricity to Gaza, or closing the borders without notice, or preventing foreign aid from reaching people, no more diverting natural gas from Palestinian territorial waters to Israel, or mining Palestinian minerals for transfer to Israel without paying royalties, etc. ,etc.

Israel has to either back off and allow Palestinians to prosper (Two State solution) or go for the One State solution and commit to treating every person with the same level of justice, fairness, and support regardless of whether they're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Neo-pagan, or whatever.

The only other alternatives are the Rogue State solution (commit genocide) or the Failed State option in which Israel is defeated and dismantled.

The suicide bombings went from a problem to rare after that wall came up. I think, for the safety of all Israelis (Jews and Muslims) that the wall stays

Fine, as long as it is built along the Armistice Line that Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community recognized as Israel's borders when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and Israelis stay on their side of it.

I doubt the rightwing Zionist faction led by Netanyahu would agree to that. They will have to be defeated at the polls before there's a realistic chance that a separation wall will solve anything.

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

Lol, genocide. Israel is the only side in this conflict not trying to carry out a genocide

I suggest you try reading up a bit on Hammas

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

I suggest you read up on my posts in this thread.

But on a note of something more relevant to you, I do hope you are careful and don't take someone's eye out with all your Nazi saluting

Oh, I see. Citing historical facts and calling you on your bullshit is the same as being a Nazi.

Who knew? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

Define the term 'Semitic'.

I get the feeling you think it's a reference to religious belief rather than ethnic origin. I haven't been criticizing anyone's religion, unless you think Zionism is a religion.

I haven't been criticizing anyone based on their ethnic origin, either. So you'll have to explain what you're referring to when you use the term 'anti-Semitic'.

Bla bla bla Yes, semitic refers to another group than the opposite of antisemitic. Because that's how the meaning of words drift over time

So?

So you can't define the term you're using, therefore you can't show that it's applicable when and where you're using it. You're simply throwing it out there to be offensive.

Wtf are you babbling about?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The best chant slogan I have heard during this conflict is, "Let them live, the children of Gaza and Tel-Aviv".

How about we all try to make that happen? Step one has to be to destroy Hammas and let Israel handle security from now on. We can debate all day why the Gaza authorities were unable to prevent the 7/10 attacks. But they did, and since this is at the root of this latest conflict, that's where we need to start if we want a long term solution.

I think step one is a ceasefire.

I don't think it's a good idea to give Hammas a chance to regroup. I think the correct strategy is to keep pushing these fuckers until they break. Yes, it's a shame that Hammas does all in the power to put Palestinia civilians at risk. But the solution here isn't to be soft on Hammas.

Step two is a negotiated transfer of power, because right now the Gaza authorities are Hamas. It will be difficult but not impossible to get something resembling moderates in charge and the price will probably be amnesty for the surviving Hamas leaders, but at some point even the most ardent zealots are going to have to admit their position is untenable.

Lol. This is not going to happen. Hammas made sure of that in the 7/10 attack. The only solution is to have whatever Palestinian authority there is to be monitored by Israel. They should be ultimately in charge.

You are talking about all of Eretz Israel being part of Israel, with Israel in control of the borders, airspace, territorial waters, electrical and water supplies, natural resources, commerce, immigration, etc., and the non-Jewish Palestinians having no real authority at all.

IOW, just like Gaza right now but more ruthless and oppressive.

That is not a path to peace.

Step three is a normalization of Gaza's relationships with other countries, including control of coastal waters and airspace, control of its borders, receiving royalties on resources extracted in Gazan waters, etc. , and a genuine possibility of prosperity. If the Gazans want Jared Kushner to develop their seafront into high end resorts and condominiums, that's fine. But if Kushner tries to screw them over, it could reignite the war, so IMO it's best to keep him out of the real estate business there.

That's not going to happen as long as Palestinians are in positions of power. The Palestinian people have proven that as long as they're in charge Gaza will be little more than a military staging post for attacks on Israel.

You're talking about a One State solution in which Palestinians are oppressed non-citizens forced to live in perpetual poverty in walled off ghettoes, or forced out by the Israelis.

The Palestinians don’t have to be poor. If they stopped using all their energy on attacking Israel, then perhaps they can make some money. Like they did before Isarel handed over control to the PA

They would have to be allowed to prosper. No more Zionist seizing of productive farmland, no more destruction of Palestinian wells or diverting of Palestinian water to Israel, no more Israeli settlements built in the West Bank, no more interference with the importing or exporting of material goods, no more fuckery by cutting off electricity to Gaza, or closing the borders without notice, or preventing foreign aid from reaching people, no more diverting natural gas from Palestinian territorial waters to Israel, or mining Palestinian minerals for transfer to Israel without paying royalties, etc. ,etc.

Israel has to either back off and allow Palestinians to prosper (Two State solution) or go for the One State solution and commit to treating every person with the same level of justice, fairness, and support regardless of whether they're Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Neo-pagan, or whatever.

The only other alternatives are the Rogue State solution (commit genocide) or the Failed State option in which Israel is defeated and dismantled.

Jesus what a load of rubbish. Stop reading antisemitic propaganda. This is all nonsense

When Hammas got power in Gaza they dismantled the, Jewish built, farms and converted them to military installations. They, on purpose, wrecked the economy, to make them dependent on Iranian money so Iran could control them.

Don’t forget that Hammas is a terror group funded by Iran in order to hurt Israel.

Israels actions have only been to protect themselves

The suicide bombings went from a problem to rare after that wall came up. I think, for the safety of all Israelis (Jews and Muslims) that the wall stays

Fine, as long as it is built along the Armistice Line that Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community recognized as Israel's borders when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and Israelis stay on their side of it.

I doubt the rightwing Zionist faction led by Netanyahu would agree to that. They will have to be defeated at the polls before there's a realistic chance that a separation wall will solve anything.

That is not a plan for peace.

Neither is genocide, if that's what you're suggesting as an alternative.

Lol, genocide. Israel is the only side in this conflict not trying to carry out a genocide

I suggest you try reading up a bit on Hammas

There will be no peace in a world where Hammas has power anywhere

I suggest you read up on my posts in this thread.

I'll read your antisemitic propaganda right after I'm finnished reading all the stuff on why Putin is really the victim in Ukraine