Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Swammerdami]

Fifty-five years ago the U.S. was involved in a major war that attracted vehement opposition on college campuses. It might be interesting to contrast U.S. reactions then with U.S. reactions to student protests today.

Unfortunately, I am not qualified to do it. 55 years ago I was an immature 19 year-old child and, although I lived in Berkeley and caught a whiff or two of tear gas, I was too preoccupied with other matters to read newspapers or form useful memories. And today I'm also preoccupied. Google presents me with headlines but I don't click unless it's about interesting science. IIDB is my major source of news!

Will someone else help contrast today's reactions to student protests with those of 55 years ago? Ignore the students' behavior: Children will be children.

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Under the same circumstances, absolutely.
Under only slightly different circumstances, maybe and maybe not.

I thought this was an admirable concession by Tom.

But with the history, I don't think it's even possible to have the same circumstances.
Tom

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances. What I expect instead: here are my a priori, objective rules for when it's a war crime and when it's not, completely independent of having looked up circumstances of when which people did what and based completely reasonably on logic.

It was the  My Lai massacre and the company officers who perpetrated it that became the "go-to" example of war crime during the Vietnam war. (But focus on the hundreds killed by Lt. Calley et al was in part to deflect attention from the hundreds of thousands killed by the malfeasance of Johnson and Kissinger et al.)

There are rumors that Israeli soldiers have committed atrocities. Any efforts by government to investigate such charges?

How about you respond to the part about war crimes perps if that’s what you really want to discuss:

I have.
Over and over.
People keep hand waving away war crimes when they are committed by Muslims.
Where is the international outrage concerning Muslim war crimes?
Tom

"Muslim ... Muslim." This seems to pit one religion against another and is NOT helpful. Is the My Lai massacre best described as committed "by Christians"? And unlike the "spin" placed on the conflict in Gaza by Netanyahu's defenders, I do NOT hear protestors blaming Israel's war crimes "on the Jews."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thirty-five years ago, all around the world dozens of countries changed their systems from (relatively benign) totalitarianism to democracy. It was a breath-taking change in world politics and some proclaimed "the End of History"! A few years later came the Arab Spring and optimism increased further. But . . .

. . . now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.

Prattle about "the End of History" is just a sad memory now. Countries around the world are turning to fascism. Democracy is dying.

Even now, Benjamin Netanyahu faces several criminal charges and is probably grateful for the distraction of a war. This sort of personal connection is one of the hallmarks of Fascism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's not the problem. Loads of newly liberated countries that have free and fair elections rapidly go to shit.

I know one such country which starts with Ukr and ends with ane

Yeah. Well. If only we can somehow stop Russia for trying to control Ukraine, then they will at least have a chance to be free.

If only we can somehow stop US from trying to control EU.....
Why, why do you have to do that? what's your business there?

False equivalent

 

[barbos]

That's not the problem. Loads of newly liberated countries that have free and fair elections rapidly go to shit.

I know one such country which starts with Ukr and ends with ane

Yeah. Well. If only we can somehow stop Russia for trying to control Ukraine, then they will at least have a chance to be free.

If only we can somehow stop US from trying to control EU.....
Why, why do you have to do that? what's your business there?

False equivalent

Riiiight.

 

[Elixir]

Right indeed.
Russia invades Ukraine, and babs claims the US similarly invaded Europe. He can probably come up with phony body counts and photos of the devastated cities left behind by the US invasion. Not to mention torture victims to offset the documented atrocities of the red army.

What a stupid fucking joke these Pootey shills are. It’s hard to imagine how they can look themselves in a mirror.

 

[Derec]

Derec, were you ever young? Did you ever go to University?

Yes on both counts. However, I went to university to learn, and not to occupy various administration buildings.

My alma mater was, when I was there, quite peaceful. A few years ago, long after I graduated, there was a riot over an Antifa named Scott/Scout Schultz who committed suicide by cop. But again, that was long after my time, and I would not have supported the riots had I still been a student.
Why do you ask?

I did, and during the Vietnam protests of the late 1960's.

I didn't realize you were that old. I wasn't even born in the late 60s. As a baby Xer/Xennial I am baffled by the urge to break shit when they are upset that Boomers and younger Millennials/Zoomers have.

Free speech (along with stupidity and ignorance) was rampant. They say the brain hasn't even matured at University age.

That's why administration should not let inmates run the asylum. Several universities, such as Rutgers and Brown(shirt) University have already caved to some of the demands by the radicals occupying the grounds. Same as it was in the 1960s, the administrators are not showing fortitude to resist the loud minority of students and outside agitators. Btw, NYPD found that half of those arrested at Columbia were not students.
NYC says half of those arrested at 2 pro-Palestinian campus protests were not students

Did you go to third grade? "Guns and stones may break my bones, but free speech doesn't hurt me."

Trespassing is not free speech. Restricting freedom of movement of others is not free speech. Breaking and entering, property damage and occupying a building are not free speech.

Or do you want to send the cowardly and immature Kyle Rittenhouse with his gun out to defend Israel from student protesters?

I do not get the hate boner your Ilk has for Ritt. He was foolish to go there, sure. But he was attacked, and he defended himself. Period. And no, what Kenosha rioters were doing was not free speech either!

In fact, we know you are delighted with anti-Zionist stupidity. In your tiny mind every utterance by a protesting crackpot impugns Sargeant Bartender and all the other fine people you despise.

Stupid is as stupid does.
And let the record reflect that it is again you who is bringing up Sandy's former profession ...

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Mississippi

This happened this past Thursday:

‘It wasn’t equal:’ Counter-protesters overwhelm pro-Palestinian students at the University of Mississippi

Counter-protestors vastly outnumbered the Free Palestine demonstrators at Ole Miss in first such campus protest in Mississippi.

mississippitoday.org

A minor assault, minor assaults (plural including throwing things) at the protestors. Using language such as references to huge noses and that they smell, possibly at Palestinian Americans but we don't know the targets for sure who the specific targets were.

The offenses by the counter-protestors led to police cordoning off the protestors with barricades.

Then, this video came out:

Fraternity Boots Bro Who Made Monkey Noises at Black Ole Miss Protester

Video of white students jeering at a single Black protester sparked outrage from the left and admiration from the right.

www.thedailybeast.com

(click it to see it)

There are many hecklers. Among them are very, very predominately white students and one of them is making monkey noises at an overweight female Black protestor. Others within the counter-protestors are laughing, some at the guy making monkey noises. That's only a slice of the heckling. It is not all racist.

Since then, his fraternity has given him the boot.

In the meantime, congressman Mike Collins reposts the video, endorsing it in a tweet:

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://www.axios.com/local/san-diego/2024/05/06/ucsd-police-arrest-gaza-solidarity-encampment-protesters

Police arrest protesters at UC San Diego's Gaza Solidarity encampment​

Police raided the "Gaza Solidarity" encampment at UC San Diego early Monday morning, arresting dozens of Pro-Palestinian protesters and clearing out the area.
Why it matters: The clash between police and campus protesters near Geisel Library marked a clear shift in the nature of local demonstrations, which had remained peaceful at UCSD and other campuses.

The latest: UC San Diego Police reported 64 arrests, 40 were students and 24 were unaffiliated or their status with the university was unknown. The students who were arrested have been or will be placed under immediate interim suspension, university officials said.

State of play: University officials said students were given about 10 minutes to disperse around 6am Monday before arrests and tent dismantling began, police, the Union-Tribune reported.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Article with video

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. —
A group of protesters knocked down barriers surrounding a pro-Palestinian encampment on the Massachusetts Institute of Technology campus Monday evening, just hours after the school ordered students to clear the encampment that had been set up on the Cambridge campus.

MIT said it directed students to leave the encampment by 2:30 p.m. Monday.

Students who participated in the protest were ordered to swipe their identification ...

Hmmm...

...as they leave the encampment and will receive a written warning, Chancellor Melissa Nobles told students in a letter. Those who led the protest or who have pending cases on related issues will be referred to MIT's Committee on Discipline.

Nobles' letter said those who do not leave voluntarily before the deadline will face immediate interim academic suspension and referral to MIT's Committee on Discipline, among other penalties. Those who have another related case will also not be allowed to reside on campus or eat in MIT dining halls.

I saw photos of the encampment earlier today. It was very weird because it was surrounded by barricades and counter-protestors must have also plastered Israeli flags all over the place on top of the barriers. I am using the word "weird" here because the claim by counter-protestors was that it made those counter-protestors feel unsafe but they seem to have plastered flags there.

A large group of pro-Palestine protesters were still gathered around the Kresge Oval after they were ordered to clear the encampment. Those protesters were met by a group of counterprotesters holding Israeli and American flags. Those two groups of protesters were kept separate by law enforcement officers.

Shortly after 5:35 p.m., a number of protesters pushed over the barricades surrounding the encampment and locked arms around the emptied tents.

The protests around the encampment area have been largely peaceful. There are police officers in the area of the Kresge Oval, but they have been keeping their distance from the protesters.

MIT said no had been arrested in connection with the incidents on campus as of Monday night.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Netherlands

Police Break Up Pro-Palestinian Camp at Amsterdam University

Dutch police arrested about 125 activists as protests that roiled U.S. campuses spread into Europe.

time.com

Belgium

Ghent students occupy university building in climate and Gaza protest

More than 200 expected to join protest calling for climate action and to cut ties with Israeli institutions

www.theguardian.com

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://abc7chicago.com/amp/univers...tinian-protest-encampment-on-campus/14777881/

CHICAGO (WLS) -- Police cleared a pro-Palestinian encampment at the University of Chicago in Hyde Park Tuesday morning.

 

[ZiprHead]

I wonder if those idiotic Hamas supporters have seen the videos of the 10/7 assault. I've not seen them but I understand they are quite horrifying.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Republican Introduces Absurd Bill to Send Arrested Student Protesters to Gaza

Rep. Andy Ogles desperately wants to punish protesting students.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I wonder if those idiotic Hamas supporters have seen the videos of the 10/7 assault. I've not seen them but I understand they are quite horrifying.

Do you believe in the Bible?

 

[lpetrich]

Should have had two strong and stable ethnostates. One for the Arab Muslim Palestinians and one for the Jewish (religious or just part of the tribe) people. Then no one would be so worried about demographic overtaking and the loss of voting power and no need for second class citizenship. Also, no impetus to overbreed to maybe gain power either.

That's pretty much what Cenk Uygur once proposed, dividing South Canaan in two, with one half for Israelis and the other half for Palestinians, and with a big wall between them. Much like dividing Cyprus into its southern Greek half and its northern Turkish half.

 

[lpetrich]

H.R.6090 - 118th Congress (2023-2024): Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

This bill provides statutory authority for the requirement that the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights take into consideration the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA's) working definition of antisemitism when reviewing or investigating complaints of discrimination based on race, color, or national origin in programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance. According to the IHRA's working definition, antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.

A definition that some people criticize as being too broad, like saying it's anti-Semitic to criticize anything about the State of Israel.
The vote on it
R: Y 187, N 21, nv 9
D: Y 133, N 70, nv 9
Ttl: Y 320, N 91, nv 18

The vote against it was a horseshoe vote, the left wing of the Democratic Party joining the right wing of the Republican Party. But for two very different reasons.

Jewish Democrat Sara Jacobs on voting against bill: Anti-Zionism not 'inherently' antisemitism
noting
Rep. Sara Jacobs: “I’ve experienced antisemitism all my life” | U.S. Congresswoman Sara Jacobs Of California's 51st District

As a Jewish woman, I’ve experienced antisemitism all my life. I’ve been called a kike while I was waiting for a drink at a bar when I was at college. I’ve heard too many ‘jokes’ to count about my frizzy hair and my big nose. I remember my classmates who thought it was funny to say people were ‘being Jewed’ when someone was being frugal. I know the hatred and ignorance that lie behind all these comments, and how they can quickly escalate into violence – and I’m deeply concerned about the rise of antisemitism in San Diego and across the country.

But I do not believe that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitism. I support Israel’s right to exist, but I also know many people who question whether Israel should exist as a Jewish state who are deeply connected to their Judaism.

Today, I voted against H.R. 6090, because it fails to effectively address the very real rise of antisemitism, all while defunding colleges and universities across the country and punishing many, if not all, of the non-violent protestors speaking out against the Israeli military’s conduct. Conflating free speech and hate crimes will not make Jewish students any safer. This bill would stifle First Amendment rights to free speech and free assembly. And it would distract from real antisemitism and our efforts to address it.

In effect, "I've experienced real anti-Semitism and criticism of Israel isn't it."

This parallels ACLU Condemns House Passage of Dangerous Bill That Would Chill Free Speech | American Civil Liberties Union - "This Bill Would Falsely Equate Criticism of Israel with Antisemitic Discrimination"

“The House’s approval of this misguided and harmful bill is a direct attack on the First Amendment,” said Christopher Anders, director of ACLU’s Democracy and Technology Policy Division. “Addressing rising antisemitism is critically important, but sacrificing American’s free speech rights is not the way to solve that problem. This bill would throw the full weight of the federal government behind an effort to stifle criticism of Israel and risks politicizing the enforcement of federal civil rights statutes precisely when their robust protections are most needed. The Senate must block this bill that undermines First Amendment protections before it’s too late.”

 

[lpetrich]

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on X: "Antisemitism is wrong, ..." / X

Antisemitism is wrong, but I will not be voting for the Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (H.R. 6090) today that could convict Christians of antisemitism for believing the Gospel that says Jesus was handed over to Herod to be crucified by the Jews.

Read the bill text and contemporary examples of antisemitism like #9.

noting What is antisemitism? from the IHRA

Antisemitism Awareness Act: What's the definition of antisemitism? – Deseret News
notes
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on X: "As a Christian, ..." / X

As a Christian, I believe the gospel in full, every letter.

The gospel says Jesus, a Jewish man - son of God - messiah, was handed over to be crucified (killed) by the chief priest, the elders, and the Jewish crowd which was prophesied in Isaiah 53.

And the gospel also says, Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days.

It is not antisemitic to say this and believe it.

Convicting me and any Christian of antisemitism, who believes or says this, is actually an attack on Christians.

I will not compromise my faith at all to avoid wrongful name calling.

I voted NO to the Antisemitism bill because of this.

Distorted gospel: Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jesus and the Jews | Salon.com - "Greene's claim about Jesus being "crucified by the Jews" is one way to read the Gospel — with a long, ugly history"

Bill to Combat Antisemitism on Campuses Prompts Backlash From the Right - The New York Times - "Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Republican of Georgia, said the legislation could make it illegal to assert that Jews killed Jesus, punishing Christians for “believing the Gospel.”"

“Did the House of Representatives just make parts of the Bible illegal?” Charlie Kirk, a far-right influencer, asked rhetorically on social media. “Yes,” replied Tucker Carlson, the former Fox News host. “The New Testament.”

Rep. Matt Gaetz on X: "This evening, ..." / X

This evening, I will vote AGAINST the ridiculous hate speech bill called the “Antisemitism Awareness Act.”

Antisemitism is wrong, but this legislation is written without regard for the Constitution, common sense, or even the common understanding of the meaning of words. The Gospel itself would meet the definition of antisemitism under the terms of this bill!

The bill says the definition of antisemitism includes “contemporary examples of antisemitism” identified by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA). One of those examples includes: “…claims of Jews killing Jesus…”

The Bible is clear. There is no myth or controversy on this. Therefore, I will not support this bill.

 

[lpetrich]

The First Amendment doesn’t have an Israel exception by Adam Lee

"At my alma mater, Binghamton University, the student association passed a hard-fought resolution in support of the Boycott/Divestment/Sanction movement."

Then noting that

Israel isn’t equivalent to Judaism, and Judaism isn’t equivalent to Israel. Israel is the only Jewish state, but that doesn’t mean that the interests of Israel are, or should be, identical to the interests of all Jewish people wherever they may live.

Then,

However, some American defenders of Israel see this resolution as their cue to leap to the barricades. Angry feelings and over-the-top rhetoric are only to be expected. What you might not have expected is that elected officials would call for the First Amendment to be demolished so they can crack down on all dissenting opinions.

Then noting some politicians who demand that the SA withdraw that resolution and that if it doesn't, Binghamton University must revoke its charter. Some others called for the expulsion of students who supported that resolution and the firing of faculty members who supported it.

AL summarizes their statement as “Support academic freedom and tolerance! Also, expel all students and fire all faculty who don’t think like we do!”

 

[lpetrich]

What’s the right way to protest Israel?
About Columbia University,

I can’t in good conscience claim that Columbia students had an absolute right to set up an encampment on the university lawn, or to break into a building and take it over. They were engaging in civil disobedience, we all know that, and one consequence of that strategy is that you should expect to be arrested.

Of course, this in no way excuses violence by the police or excessively harsh punishment. For all the tabloid fearmongering, it seems clear that the Columbia protests were consistently peaceful. At worst, there were some angry exchanges of words and minor property damage. If anyone had been seriously hurt, much less killed, by one of the protesters, you can be sure that Israel’s defenders would be screaming at the top of their lungs about it. They aren’t, because they can’t point to any such incident.

Good point.

It’s a consistent theme across history that people protesting injustice and war always get told it’s not the right way, or the right time, or the right place. This advice is almost never offered in good faith. In almost every case, it’s nothing but a majority trying to shut down a message they don’t want to hear. If Zionists don’t want to be part of this illiberal tradition, they should prove it.

It's Never the Right Time to Protest

Because we now approve of what the civil rights movement was trying to achieve, we tend to project that memory into the past and assume they were greeted with applause in their own day. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just like today’s protesters, Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil-rights activists were scorned as troublemakers who were threatening the fabric of society and trying to disrupt a social order that was working perfectly well:

 

[Derec]

The First Amendment doesn’t have an Israel exception by Adam Lee

No, but it does have exceptions. You can't occupy a quad when you are asked to leave. You can't break and enter and then occupy a building that's not yours.

"At my alma mater, Binghamton University, the student association passed a hard-fought resolution in support of the Boycott/Divestment/Sanction movement."

BDS is Kauft nicht bei Juden! for the 21st century. Shameful!

Israel isn’t equivalent to Judaism, and Judaism isn’t equivalent to Israel. Israel is the only Jewish state, but that doesn’t mean that the interests of Israel are, or should be, identical to the interests of all Jewish people wherever they may live.

Technically true, but when Israel is singled out for hatred and denial of its right to defend itself or even exist, then that crosses the line into antisemitism.

AL summarizes their statement as “Support academic freedom and tolerance! Also, expel all students and fire all faculty who don’t think like we do!”

If students had passed a resolution singling any other ethnic group, there would be consequences. I guess Adam Lee does want there to be an Israel exception, just one that is in his favor.

 

[Derec]

Republican Introduces Absurd Bill to Send Arrested Student Protesters to Gaza

Rep. Andy Ogles desperately wants to punish protesting students.

www.thedailybeast.com

Obviously not realistic as a law, but I must admit that these creeps would benefit from having to live under Hamas rule. Especially the Queers for Palestine idiots, who have the situational awareness of a moth drawn to a flame.