Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Derec]

It is accurate in saying that a "peace" deal with Hamas is a dead end towards peace.

Indeed. They would just regroup, rearm and bide their time to attack again. Their leadership is quite explicit about wanting to repeat 10/7 over and over again.

Of course, one must ask oneself, with the inability to end Hamas, due to this being real life and not a movie, would a peace deal, at least in the short term, to get the rest of the hostages back, be worth it?

NSDAP was ended. Why not Hamas?
Of course, Palestinians must want to abandon vainglorious dreams of destroying Israel. Are you suggesting that they are constitutionally incapable of doing that?

Obviously, Hamas would want unreasonable things for that.

Quite. For the release of all hostages, they are still demanding release of all Palestinian terrorists from Israeli prisons.
Even for phase 1 of the deal, they want hundreds of terrorists in exchange for ~30 hostages.

But if the future will be violent anyway, why not lie about peace in the meantime, so repatriate families in Israel (and abroad)?

I wonder how many of the hostages are still alive. Bodies of five hostages were recovered just the other day.
And it would mean that thousands of Palestinian terrorists would be freed.
In the biggest blunder of his career (until dropping the ball on 10/7), Netanyahu released >1000 terrorists for one kidnapped Israeli soldier. Hamas chief Yaya Sinwar was among those terrorists, as were others who participated in the 10/7 genocidal massacre.

And then come up with an actual plan for how to effectively paralyze Hamas, which honestly would be more intelligence related than violence related.

It needs both. And there needs to be a strong international stance against Iran. Lifting sanctions and giving them pallets of cash like Obama did in 2015 was the wrong approach.

Of course, that can't be with Netanyahu, because he is a fool and a criminal and he wants all of Gaza. He doesn't care about the hostages.

I do not think he wants all of Gaza. But Israel should control the Philadelphi corridor to prevent weapons smuggling into the Strip.

 

[Bomb#20]

Their delusion about what the word "freedom" means has no magical power to make their artwork a symbol of freedom.

What do they think the word "freedom" means

What just about every terrorist movement fighting foreign rule thinks it means: rule by one of "us" instead of by one of "them".

, and how do you know they think that?

From the protestors' signs and graffiti. "Hamas". "One God. One Nation." "Allah is gathering all the Zionists for the Final Solution".

How do you know they don't want freedom for the people of Gaza (however they define it) from Hamas and

Like Derec pointed out when he necromanced the thread: "Pro-Hamas protests in Washington DC yesterday are not even bothering to pretend that they are not Hamas supporters any more."

the IDF and foreign interference and from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

Do those signs and graffiti look to you like they want Gaza free from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

The graffiti that says "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" does.

Why does it look like that to you? The U.S. isn't funding genocide. Hamas is genocidal, Israel is not genocidal, and they all know it. This is not rocket science. The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians. So if Israel were attempting genocide there would be about six hundred thousand dead Palestinians.

Whoever scrawled "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" on the "Freedom Bell" was knowingly spreading Hamas's disinformation for it. Why on earth would anyone imagine that someone propagandizing on Hamas's behalf wants Gaza free from Hamas? That's like claiming Goebbels wanted Germany free from you-know-who.

The one that says "HAMAS" with a heart does not.

Hmmm... what can this possibly mean?

Do you think it's possible people have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza, and that only some of them are genuinely pro-Hamas despite the simplistic-to-the-point-of-stupidity rhetoric that equates all the anti-war protesters with supporters of terrorism?

Did you ever see Frances McDormand's monologue from "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri"?

... And, if I remember rightly, the gist of what those new laws were saying was if you join one of these gangs, and you're running with 'em, and down the block one night, unbeknownst to you, one of your fellow Crips, or your fellow Bloods, shoot up a place, or stab a guy, well then, even though you didn't know nothing about it, and even though you may've just been standing on a streetcorner minding your own business, what these new laws said was you're still culpable. You're still culpable, by the very act of joining those Crips, or those Bloods, in the first place. ...​

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

 

[laughing dog]

Their delusion about what the word "freedom" means has no magical power to make their artwork a symbol of freedom.

What do they think the word "freedom" means

What just about every terrorist movement fighting foreign rule thinks it means: rule by one of "us" instead of by one of "them".

, and how do you know they think that?

From the protestors' signs and graffiti. "Hamas". "One God. One Nation." "Allah is gathering all the Zionists for the Final Solution".

How do you know they don't want freedom for the people of Gaza (however they define it) from Hamas and

Like Derec pointed out when he necromanced the thread: "Pro-Hamas protests in Washington DC yesterday are not even bothering to pretend that they are not Hamas supporters any more."

the IDF and foreign interference and from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

Do those signs and graffiti look to you like they want Gaza free from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

The graffiti that says "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" does.

Why does it look like that to you? The U.S. isn't funding genocide. Hamas is genocidal, Israel is not genocidal, and they all know it. This is not rocket science. The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians. So if Israel were attempting genocide there would be about six hundred thousand dead Palestinians.

Whoever scrawled "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" on the "Freedom Bell" was knowingly spreading Hamas's disinformation for it. Why on earth would anyone imagine that someone propagandizing on Hamas's behalf wants Gaza free from Hamas? That's like claiming Goebbels wanted Germany free from you-know-who.

The one that says "HAMAS" with a heart does not.

Hmmm... what can this possibly mean?

Do you think it's possible people have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza, and that only some of them are genuinely pro-Hamas despite the simplistic-to-the-point-of-stupidity rhetoric that equates all the anti-war protesters with supporters of terrorism?

Did you ever see Frances McDormand's monologue from "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri"?

... And, if I remember rightly, the gist of what those new laws were saying was if you join one of these gangs, and you're running with 'em, and down the block one night, unbeknownst to you, one of your fellow Crips, or your fellow Bloods, shoot up a place, or stab a guy, well then, even though you didn't know nothing about it, and even though you may've just been standing on a streetcorner minding your own business, what these new laws said was you're still culpable. You're still culpable, by the very act of joining those Crips, or those Bloods, in the first place. ...​

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

 

[Arctish]

Their delusion about what the word "freedom" means has no magical power to make their artwork a symbol of freedom.

What do they think the word "freedom" means

What just about every terrorist movement fighting foreign rule thinks it means: rule by one of "us" instead of by one of "them".

, and how do you know they think that?

From the protestors' signs and graffiti. "Hamas". "One God. One Nation." "Allah is gathering all the Zionists for the Final Solution".

How do you know they don't want freedom for the people of Gaza (however they define it) from Hamas and

Like Derec pointed out when he necromanced the thread: "Pro-Hamas protests in Washington DC yesterday are not even bothering to pretend that they are not Hamas supporters any more."

the IDF and foreign interference and from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

Do those signs and graffiti look to you like they want Gaza free from racist bigots who use religion as a cover/excuse for being assholes and stealing stuff?

The graffiti that says "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" does.

Why does it look like that to you? The U.S. isn't funding genocide. Hamas is genocidal, Israel is not genocidal, and they all know it.

Israel is currently led by Likud, which is as genocidal as Hamas:

Database exposes 500 instances of Israeli incitement to genocide in Gaza

Some of those calls for genocide and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians came from Israeli decision-makers, including President Isaac Herzog, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and other extremist ministers in the far-right government.

"There are no innocent civilians in Gaza," Herzog said on October 14.

On November 11, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant threatened genocide against both Palestinians and Lebanese people by saying: "I am saying here to the citizens of Lebanon, I already see the citizens in Gaza walking with white flags along the coast... If Hezbollah makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are, first of all, the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza, we know how to do in Beirut."

In some instances, Netanyahu directly called for the mass killings of the Palestinians in besieged Gaza.

In others, he used religious references to dehumanise the Palestinians, a tactic often used by fascists throughout history in order to make it easier for the people to accept the massacres being carried out against opponents.

"Gaza is the city of evil, we will turn all the places in which Hamas deploys and hides into ruins. I am telling the people of Gaza — get out of there now. We will act everywhere and with full power," Netanyahu said on October 13.

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible," he said on October 28. Netanyahu continued: "We remember, and we are fighting … our soldiers are part of a legacy of Jewish warriors that goes back 3,000 years."

Israeli military soldiers, too, have also been caught showing genocidal intent and collective punishment ambitions in Gaza.

An example of that was an image taken by an IDF soldier of an artillery shell that had a text written on it in Hebrew: "God Willing, it will hit innocent people."

"One of the options is to drop an atomic bomb on Gaza. I pray & hope for their [hostages] return, but there is also a price in war," Amichai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage, wrote on X.

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated," argued Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education.

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!," wished Revital Gottlieb, a member of the Israeli Knesset.

The right wingers currently in power in Israel weren't hiding their religious bigotry, prejudice, or their intentions before October 2023. They have only become more strident since the terrorist attack. Just because you never heard calls for ethnic cleansing and genocide coming from the highest levels in the Israeli government doesn't mean the Palestinian people haven't been hearing those same calls for years, getting louder and louder as Netanyahu empowered the most violent factions in the Israeli right wing.

This is not rocket science. The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians. So if Israel were attempting genocide there would be about six hundred thousand dead Palestinians.

Whoever scrawled "STOP FUNDING GENOCIDE" on the "Freedom Bell" was knowingly spreading Hamas's disinformation for it. Why on earth would anyone imagine that someone propagandizing on Hamas's behalf wants Gaza free from Hamas? That's like claiming Goebbels wanted Germany free from you-know-who.

The one that says "HAMAS" with a heart does not.

Hmmm... what can this possibly mean?

Do you think it's possible people have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza, and that only some of them are genuinely pro-Hamas despite the simplistic-to-the-point-of-stupidity rhetoric that equates all the anti-war protesters with supporters of terrorism?

Did you ever see Frances McDormand's monologue from "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri"?

... And, if I remember rightly, the gist of what those new laws were saying was if you join one of these gangs, and you're running with 'em, and down the block one night, unbeknownst to you, one of your fellow Crips, or your fellow Bloods, shoot up a place, or stab a guy, well then, even though you didn't know nothing about it, and even though you may've just been standing on a streetcorner minding your own business, what these new laws said was you're still culpable. You're still culpable, by the very act of joining those Crips, or those Bloods, in the first place. ...​

If they joined the gang then yeah, they're not entirely innocent even if they weren't directly involved. But what about the non-gang member neighbors of gang members? What about the people who literally fought against the gang and were defeated18 years ago? What about the kids who were born in the years since?

Israel's President Isaac Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. It appears he's the type of person who believes guilt is an inheritable characteristic so killing a 2 year old playing with wooden blocks is as justified as killing a 30 year old aiming a RPG at a helicopter. He's not some rando from a blog somewhere. He's Israel's President ffs.

You already know about Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, and Smotrich. Do you want to explore the histories and statements of other prominent members of the current Israeli government?

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

I have never heard of a protest that was Invitation Only.
[/QUOTE]

 

[bilby]

The U.S. isn't funding genocide. Hamas is genocidal, Israel is not genocidal, and they all know it. This is not rocket science. The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians. So if Israel were attempting genocide there would be about six hundred thousand dead Palestinians.

"They can't be attempting it, because they are doing a less effective job of it than I would expect" is not a particularly compelling argument.

I applaud your ability to spin the observation "The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians", as evidence against the IDF committing genocide.

I am left wondering whether Himmler might have argued at Nuremberg that he couldn't possibly have been responsible for genocide, because there were still some Jews alive in Eastern Europe, despite the fact that his Einsatzgruppen were, demonstrably, very good at killing Jews.

 

[Bomb#20]

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Who you calling "we", Kemosabe?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They want the freedom to make everyone kowtow to their version of Islam.

They want the freedom to continue to kill Jews without repercussions.

The people of Gaza support Hamas, they don't want freedom from it.

Some people in Gaza support Hamas. Those people support Hamas for various reasons, including bigotry and fatigue with Netanyahu's policies. Other people in Gaza do not support Hamas. They view the crap they are dealing with right now as Hamas fault.

You need to shove your broad brush back into the drawer.

I've posted the polls before--the majority support Hamas. And the majority support the war.

And you aren't even proposing to do anything about the foreign interference in the form of Iranian support for war.

The UN stopped taking Arctish's calls when they realized he wasn't really Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

If she's objecting to foreign influence why not object to by far the biggest part of it?

An example from Vietnam: At least the older smallpox vaccine leaves a small circular scar. (I thought all versions do but I've had the smallpox vaccine and my wife noted that I don't have the scar. I haven't seen mine but I have no memory of where the shot was to know where to look. It's subtle but easily recognized if you know what you're looking at.) The Viet Cong responded to seeing kids with the vaccine scar on their arm by cutting off said arm. That's the sort of horror you are unknowingly siding with.

There isn't a forehead and palm large enough for that absurdly ridiculous statement.

What part of it are you denying?

I'm comparing Islamist tactics with Viet Cong tactics--because they're from the same playbook.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes and no. It isn't going to change on the ground actions in Gaza, but it will in a tiny way impact American response or the argument for/against American actions in Gaza. Support for Hamas is vile. And I think it is important for leadership to be able to draw the line between reasonable reactions to legitimate Gazan fatigue and the terror attack atrocity and the generalized mission statement of Hamas in the first place. There are a lot of younger people out there that have a different optic view of Israel / Gaza than older people. And instead of saying those people are for genocide, deport them, the argument should literally be an argument as to why the US can NOT support Hamas and why no one should.

And you're falling right into the trap. Hamas repeats it often enough, the line as to what is legitimate or not get blurred.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh no!

They've abused that symbol of freedom, by trying to make it into some sort of symbol of freedom!

Are you seriously proposing that driving the Zionists out of Gaza would bring Gaza freedom?!?

Certainly freedom from zionists.

Yeah, freedom to kill Jews.

You do realize that Israelis kill magnitudes more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Jews.

And this isn't a sporting competition.

Hamas chose the war. Hamas just dismissed unread the latest peace proposal which means they wish to continue the war.

Strange how Jews are only good when they're dead.

You said it, not me. In fact, I have never had that revolting thought .

You seem to have no care about the lives of Jews. You can defend yourself--but you can't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What just about every terrorist movement fighting foreign rule thinks it means: rule by one of "us" instead of by one of "them".

And what just about every supporter of terrorist movements feels.

Even when the reality is that a terrorist victory is always bad for the people. Always. While the new government might be from the "right" people the result is never actual freedom. It's always jumping from the frying pan to the fire.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder how many of the hostages are still alive. Bodies of five hostages were recovered just the other day.
And it would mean that thousands of Palestinian terrorists would be freed.

I don't think this is really an accurate description. 5 bodies were recovered but they died at the start so it's not really right to describe them as hostages.

In the biggest blunder of his career (until dropping the ball on 10/7), Netanyahu released >1000 terrorists for one kidnapped Israeli soldier. Hamas chief Yaya Sinwar was among those terrorists, as were others who participated in the 10/7 genocidal massacre.

Exactly--which is why Hamas was so focused on hostages and why Israel knows this can't be resolved by diplomacy.

 

[laughing dog]

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Who you calling "we", Kemosabe?

The USA

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Continuing to chant "war crimes" doesn't make it true.

War crimes are specific acts, not merely being successful.

We have unconfirmed reports of mistreatment of captives but even if true they aren't a war crime since those who fight in civilian attire get no protections. The most fiendish torture you could imagine would not be a war crime.

We have many reports of acts which are not war crimes. Having the locals show you the place isn't booby trapped isn't a war crime. They're free to refuse--it's just Israel will then treat the item or place as booby trapped. Where it crosses into a war crime is when a civilian is intentionally put in a position of risk vs incoming fire--and claims of such are notable in their absence. (We do have captives caught in combat but that's a different issue. You can't take captives without having a situation with captives mixed with combatants and there have been cases where they came under fire.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The U.S. isn't funding genocide. Hamas is genocidal, Israel is not genocidal, and they all know it. This is not rocket science. The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians. So if Israel were attempting genocide there would be about six hundred thousand dead Palestinians.

"They can't be attempting it, because they are doing a less effective job of it than I would expect" is not a particularly compelling argument.

I applaud your ability to spin the observation "The IDF is, not to put too fine a point on it, very good at killing Palestinians", as evidence against the IDF committing genocide.

I am left wondering whether Himmler might have argued at Nuremberg that he couldn't possibly have been responsible for genocide, because there were still some Jews alive in Eastern Europe, despite the fact that his Einsatzgruppen were, demonstrably, very good at killing Jews.

Your failure to understand doesn't make him wrong.

The reality is that if the goal of the IDF was to kill Palestinians that we would see an awful lot more dead Palestinians.

The last time I saw statistics the reality was that there was an average of less than one dead per bomb dropped. To drop bombs into developed areas without killing anyone takes a lot of skill and a lot of desire not to kill.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh no!

They've abused that symbol of freedom, by trying to make it into some sort of symbol of freedom!

Are you seriously proposing that driving the Zionists out of Gaza would bring Gaza freedom?!?

Certainly freedom from zionists.

Yeah, freedom to kill Jews.

You do realize that Israelis kill magnitudes more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Jews.

And this isn't a sporting competition.

Hamas chose the war. Hamas just dismissed unread the latest peace proposal which means they wish to continue the war.

. My point stands. Regardless of Hamas’s intents and goals, the Israelis kill many more civilians.

Strange how Jews are only good when they're dead.

You said it, not me. In fact, I have never had that revolting thought .

You seem to have no care about the lives of Jews. You can defend yourself--but you can't.

Preventing food delivery is not defense. Waiting to drop bombs on targets until they get home is not defense. Setting up safe zones then bombing them is not defense.

You conflate purpose with tactics.

 

[laughing dog]

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Continuing to chant "war crimes" doesn't make it true. ….

instead of spouting propaganda, address the point.

If there are no war crimes ( any includes zero) then we are not culpable according to Bomb#20’s reasoning. If there are Israeli war crimes, then applying that reasoning, are we culpable?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes and no. It isn't going to change on the ground actions in Gaza, but it will in a tiny way impact American response or the argument for/against American actions in Gaza. Support for Hamas is vile. And I think it is important for leadership to be able to draw the line between reasonable reactions to legitimate Gazan fatigue and the terror attack atrocity and the generalized mission statement of Hamas in the first place. There are a lot of younger people out there that have a different optic view of Israel / Gaza than older people. And instead of saying those people are for genocide, deport them, the argument should literally be an argument as to why the US can NOT support Hamas and why no one should.

And you're falling right into the trap. Hamas repeats it often enough, the line as to what is legitimate or not get blurred.

Do you even read what you are replying to?

 

[Bomb#20]

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Who you calling "we", Kemosabe?

The USA

In the words of Edmund Burke, "I do not know the method of drawing up an indictment against an whole people."

 

[laughing dog]

People who have different reasons for protesting the slaughter in Gaza and aren't pro-Hamas are perfectly capable of holding a protest of their own somewhere and not inviting all the Hamas fanboys to take part. The ones at this protest didn't do that. Instead, they joined the gang. They're culpable.

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Who you calling "we", Kemosabe?

The USA

In the words of Edmund Burke, "I do not know the method of drawing up an indictment against an whole people."

I get it - you are taking a pedantic legalistic approach to avoid the moral or logical consequence.

 

[Bomb#20]

Only if you accept that hypocritical logic. After all, we “joined” Israel in it fight. Are we culpable for any of its war crimes?

Continuing to chant "war crimes" doesn't make it true.

War crimes are specific acts, not merely being successful.

We have unconfirmed reports of mistreatment of captives but even if true they aren't a war crime since those who fight in civilian attire get no protections. The most fiendish torture you could imagine would not be a war crime.

That's ridiculous. If you catch an illegal enemy combatant fighting while in civilian attire that means she's not a POW and you're within your rights to put her in front of a firing squad. That doesn't mean you're within your rights to torture her to death like a 10/7 Hamas victim, filling her groin with nails. Of course that would be a war crime.