Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Loren Pechtel]

. My point stands. Regardless of Hamas’s intents and goals, the Israelis kill many more civilians.

The point is that that's irrelevant.

No, you wish it to be irrelevant because it is inconvenient.
Hamas wants to kill Jews but lacks the means to carry out their terrible mission on a larger scale. Israel allegedly does not want to kill civilians but ends up killing magnitudes more.

This isn't a sporting event. Absolute routs in warfare are not prohibited.

Stop derailing the discussion - killing civilians is neither a sporting event nor warfare.

I'm not derailing, I'm objecting to your introduction of irrelevancies.

The death toll says nothing about right and wrong.

Preventing food delivery? That's a Hamas tactic.

It is well documented. It is at the core of the war crime indictment at the ICJ. And it is not defending oneself.

There have been minor obstacles set up by the protesters in Israel. …

You are misinformed. The IDF did restrict flow of food aid into Gaza.

When?

It has been claimed that they do--but not substantiated. They do have strict standards for inspection and some have claimed their actions stopping thwarting of the inspections are restricting, but that's not the case.

If you want to complain about restricting food why don't you look at where it's actually happening:

As Starvation Spreads in Sudan, Military Blocks Aid Trucks at Border

A country torn apart by civil war could soon face one of the world’s worst famines in decades, experts said.

www.nytimes.com

Sudan. But you can't use that to bash Jews so the world pretty much ignores it.

Safe zones--Hamas took advantage of them.

Duh.As anyone interested in self preservation would do and that the IDF had to expect. So do you have a rebuttal instead of an excuse?

When something civilian gets used for military purposes it ceases to be protected. Israel pretty much left the safe zones alone while they were rooting out Hamas elsewhere, now they're letting the civilians out but not Hamas.

Excuses are not rebuttals. The IDF makes safe zones knowing Hamas will infiltrate them, then the IDF attacks and ends up killing more civilians in the “safe zone”.

Dividing up the area and attacking only part of it at a time makes it easier for the civilians to stay away from the combat and thus is beneficial.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To torture simply for the sake of torture would be wrong. To torture for information is permitted.

WTF?! Torture for information? Like the Nazis did in WWII or are we talking compassionate conservativism "torture" circa 9/11 response?

As with everything with law, that which is not addressed is legal. Geneva protects soldiers fighting in uniform, it does not protect spies and saboteurs.

Those people are protected by OTHER laws.

The specific discussion was about war crimes.

There's no international law against torturing a spy or a saboteur. It's not a war crime.

Thus even if you establish that it happened you haven't shown Israel guilty of war crimes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

To torture simply for the sake of torture would be wrong. To torture for information is permitted.

WTF?! Torture for information? Like the Nazis did in WWII or are we talking compassionate conservativism "torture" circa 9/11 response?

As with everything with law, that which is not addressed is legal. Geneva protects soldiers fighting in uniform, it does not protect spies and saboteurs.

Those people are protected by OTHER laws.

The specific discussion was about war crimes.

There's no international law against torturing a spy or a saboteur. It's not a war crime.

Thus even if you establish that it happened you haven't shown Israel guilty of war crimes.

That is desperate obfuscation to deny humanity.

 

[laughing dog]

. My point stands. Regardless of Hamas’s intents and goals, the Israelis kill many more civilians.

The point is that that's irrelevant.

No, you wish it to be irrelevant because it is inconvenient.
Hamas wants to kill Jews but lacks the means to carry out their terrible mission on a larger scale. Israel allegedly does not want to kill civilians but ends up killing magnitudes more.

This isn't a sporting event. Absolute routs in warfare are not prohibited.

Stop derailing the discussion - killing civilians is neither a sporting event nor warfare.

I'm not derailing, I'm objecting to your introduction of irrelevancies.

The death toll says nothing about right and wrong.

We disagree.

Preventing food delivery? That's a Hamas tactic.

It is well documented. It is at the core of the war crime indictment at the ICJ. And it is not defending oneself.

There have been minor obstacles set up by the protesters in Israel. …

You are misinformed. The IDF did restrict flow of food aid into Gaza.

When?

It has been claimed that they do--but not substantiated. They do have strict standards for inspection and some have claimed their actions stopping thwarting of the inspections are restricting, but that's not the case.

You are willfully "misinformed". It has been documented many times. Here are but a few examples:
We tried to bring food into Gaza but Israel blocked and arrested us. (1st hand account).
How Israel’s restrictions on aid put Gaza on the brink of famine

About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits.

Safe zones--Hamas took advantage of them.

Duh.As anyone interested in self preservation would do and that the IDF had to expect. So do you have a rebuttal instead of an excuse?

When something civilian gets used for military purposes it ceases to be protected. Israel pretty much left the safe zones alone while they were rooting out Hamas elsewhere, now they're letting the civilians out but not Hamas.

Excuses are not rebuttals. The IDF makes safe zones knowing Hamas will infiltrate them, then the IDF attacks and ends up killing more civilians in the “safe zone”.

Dividing up the area and attacking only part of it at a time makes it easier for the civilians to stay away from the combat and thus is beneficial.

Not for the ones in the "safe zones" that are bombed and who get killed.

 

[bilby]

Yes, the biggest problem of torture for use as an information tool, you need to be rather depraved for it to work

That's not the problem.

The problem is that it doesn't work no matter how depraved you are.

If you torture someone, they will eventually tell you what they think you want to hear. And you will keep torturing them until they get it right, and tell you what you want to hear.

So torture is a great way to find out what you yourself already believe to be true.

It's utterly shit as a way to find out anything you don't already believe, or to sort out truth from lies, or to find out anything you don't already know.

If you believe that a suspect is guilty, you can get him to confess. But that tells you nothing about whether or not he was guilty.

If you believe that he is lying, you can get him to change his story. But you learn nothing about which version (if either) is closer to the truth.

Torture gets its victims to say that they agree with you. That's all it does. It might take them a long time to work out exactly how to agree with you. But eventually, a skilled torturer can force them to work it out. And then they will say the things you knew from the outset, and that will get you to stop.

So what's the point?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, the biggest problem of torture for use as an information tool, you need to be rather depraved for it to work

That's not the problem.

The problem is that it doesn't work no matter how depraved you are.

Nazis made good use of it. But as I said, you have to have a depraved mind for torture to work. In no way am I justifying its use in pretty much any viable situation, just saying that if one is psychopathic enough and the outcomes for those being tortured isn't relevant, it can work. We should never stoop to those levels.

I agree, in general, when operating at least within the humane side of depravity, it is not reliable, quick, or effective method for getting information. It generally ends up being counterproductive. Which I did state in my post.

 

[bilby]

Nazis made good use of it. But as I said, you have to have a depraved mind for torture to work.

No, they didn't. Because, for the reasons I just gave (and you just ignored) it cannot work.

They made extensive use of it; But it did them no good. They would have been more effective in achieving their objectives without it.

In fact, if you look at intelligence gained during WWII, you can see that the British approach, of humane treatment of PoWs and even of captured enemy agents yided vast amounts of useful information, while the Germans remained utterly clueless about the Allies secret plans and secret weapons for far longer than they had any readon to.

People told German torturers about Allied secrets; But the Germans didn't believe them - because they knew that much of what they were told was deliberate misinformation, and much of the rest was on-the-spot confabulation by people saying what they thought their interrogators wanted to hear.

The extensive use of torture by the Nazis had an overall negative effect of their war effort. As should be expected, because torture does not and cannot work.

I agree, in general, when operating at least within the humane side of depravity, it is not reliable, quick, or effective method for getting information.

It is invariably less reliable, slower, and less effective than just guessing.

If you have a better way to define "doesn't work" for an effort to gain information, I would like to see it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The death toll says nothing about right and wrong.

We disagree.

So I suppose you also think Russia is in the right in Ukraine? After all, a lot more Russian soldiers are dying.

Preventing food delivery? That's a Hamas tactic.

It is well documented. It is at the core of the war crime indictment at the ICJ. And it is not defending oneself.

There have been minor obstacles set up by the protesters in Israel. …

You are misinformed. The IDF did restrict flow of food aid into Gaza.

When?

It has been claimed that they do--but not substantiated. They do have strict standards for inspection and some have claimed their actions stopping thwarting of the inspections are restricting, but that's not the case.

You are willfully "misinformed". It has been documented many times. Here are but a few examples:

Your rebuttals aren't.

We tried to bring food into Gaza but Israel blocked and arrested us. (1st hand account).

Well, duh. They perfectly well knew what would happen. Israel isn't going to allow uninspected stuff in Gaza. Even knowing things are going to be inspected there are repeated attempts at smuggling.

And I note:

To date, it has been estimated that 28 children have died of malnutrition and starvation in northern Gaza.

And the only reason someone dies of malnutrition is because there's no food available?? And why do we have news reports of one of those kids Israel was supposedly starving--yet the rest of his family looks fine? And why does Gaza have about half the death by malnutrition rate that the US does?

How Israel’s restrictions on aid put Gaza on the brink of famine

About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits.

That's UN data. That conveniently doesn't count stuff which enters Gaza and then sits there, thus blaming Israel for things which are the fault of the UN or Hamas. Strangely we also see that private shipments get through far better than aid shipments. Seems the UN won't pay market wages.

Safe zones--Hamas took advantage of them.

Duh.As anyone interested in self preservation would do and that the IDF had to expect. So do you have a rebuttal instead of an excuse?

When something civilian gets used for military purposes it ceases to be protected. Israel pretty much left the safe zones alone while they were rooting out Hamas elsewhere, now they're letting the civilians out but not Hamas.

Excuses are not rebuttals. The IDF makes safe zones knowing Hamas will infiltrate them, then the IDF attacks and ends up killing more civilians in the “safe zone”.

Dividing up the area and attacking only part of it at a time makes it easier for the civilians to stay away from the combat and thus is beneficial.

Not for the ones in the "safe zones" that are bombed and who get killed.

You fail to understand that the situation has changed. And even Hamas isn't managing to list all that many deaths anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, the biggest problem of torture for use as an information tool, you need to be rather depraved for it to work

That's not the problem.

The problem is that it doesn't work no matter how depraved you are.

If you torture someone, they will eventually tell you what they think you want to hear. And you will keep torturing them until they get it right, and tell you what you want to hear.

So torture is a great way to find out what you yourself already believe to be true.

If you have a single source of information you would be correct.

Capture a dozen and cross check. Same thing you would do if you were using lesser means.

Besides, I was simply objecting to it being alleged as a war crime. It wouldn't be a war crime if it was happening so allegations of it happening are not evidence of war crimes.

 

[laughing dog]

The death toll says nothing about right and wrong.

We disagree.

So I suppose you also think Russia is in the right in Ukraine? After all, a lot more Russian soldiers are dying.

WTF? If A and B are in a war, thinking A is doing something wrong does not mean one thinks B is doing something right.

Preventing food delivery? That's a Hamas tactic.

It is well documented. It is at the core of the war crime indictment at the ICJ. And it is not defending oneself.

There have been minor obstacles set up by the protesters in Israel. …

You are misinformed. The IDF did restrict flow of food aid into Gaza.

When?

It has been claimed that they do--but not substantiated. They do have strict standards for inspection and some have claimed their actions stopping thwarting of the inspections are restricting, but that's not the case.

You are willfully "misinformed". It has been documented many times. Here are but a few examples:

Your rebuttals aren't.

We tried to bring food into Gaza but Israel blocked and arrested us. (1st hand account).

Well, duh. They perfectly well knew what would happen. Israel isn't going to allow uninspected stuff in Gaza. Even knowing things are going to be inspected there are repeated attempts at smuggling.

And I note:

To date, it has been estimated that 28 children have died of malnutrition and starvation in northern Gaza.

And the only reason someone dies of malnutrition is because there's no food available?? And why do we have news reports of one of those kids Israel was supposedly starving--yet the rest of his family looks fine? And why does Gaza have about half the death by malnutrition rate that the US does?

I don't know about those so called "reports".

How Israel’s restrictions on aid put Gaza on the brink of famine

About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits.

That's UN data. That conveniently doesn't count stuff which enters Gaza and then sits there, thus blaming Israel for things which are the fault of the UN or Hamas. Strangely we also see that private shipments get through far better than aid shipments. Seems the UN won't pay market wages.

If food aid is reduced by 80% (500 truckloads a day to less than 100 per day), there is going to be significant health issues due to malnutrition. The problem of getting INTO GAZA is Isreal, not Hamas or the UN. The problem of distributing food within Gaza is a different issue.

Safe zones--Hamas took advantage of them.

Duh.As anyone interested in self preservation would do and that the IDF had to expect. So do you have a rebuttal instead of an excuse?

When something civilian gets used for military purposes it ceases to be protected. Israel pretty much left the safe zones alone while they were rooting out Hamas elsewhere, now they're letting the civilians out but not Hamas.

Excuses are not rebuttals. The IDF makes safe zones knowing Hamas will infiltrate them, then the IDF attacks and ends up killing more civilians in the “safe zone”.

Dividing up the area and attacking only part of it at a time makes it easier for the civilians to stay away from the combat and thus is beneficial.

Not for the ones in the "safe zones" that are bombed and who get killed.

You fail to understand that the situation has changed. And even Hamas isn't managing to list all that many deaths anymore.

Regardless of the number, it is an atrocity that civilians lured into a "safe zone" and then bombed and killed. At least be honest and stop the bs spinning and admit that Gaza civilian lives don't matter at all. Despite the rhetoric to the contrary, in the zeal to kill Hamas at almost any cost, Gazan civlians are going to continue to die at the hands of the IDF.

 

[TomC]

At least be honest and stop the bs spinning and admit that Gaza civilian lives don't matter at all.

The real problem for many Gazans is that Gazans don't value Gazan civilian lives. Hamas is Gazan.
And worse, for the civilians in Gaza, the international community doesn't much care either. Instead of dealing with the violent Islamic supporters of the violent Gazan government the international community as a whole keeps piling blame on Israel for defending itself.

From the many and various attacks on Israel for the last 70 years to the October 7 violence to the ongoing use of Gazans as human shields, the main cause of the disaster in Gaza is Muslims, not Israelis.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The death toll says nothing about right and wrong.

We disagree.

So I suppose you also think Russia is in the right in Ukraine? After all, a lot more Russian soldiers are dying.

WTF? If A and B are in a war, thinking A is doing something wrong does not mean one thinks B is doing something right.

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Preventing food delivery? That's a Hamas tactic.

It is well documented. It is at the core of the war crime indictment at the ICJ. And it is not defending oneself.

There have been minor obstacles set up by the protesters in Israel. …

You are misinformed. The IDF did restrict flow of food aid into Gaza.

When?

It has been claimed that they do--but not substantiated. They do have strict standards for inspection and some have claimed their actions stopping thwarting of the inspections are restricting, but that's not the case.

You are willfully "misinformed". It has been documented many times. Here are but a few examples:

Your rebuttals aren't.

We tried to bring food into Gaza but Israel blocked and arrested us. (1st hand account).

Well, duh. They perfectly well knew what would happen. Israel isn't going to allow uninspected stuff in Gaza. Even knowing things are going to be inspected there are repeated attempts at smuggling.

And I note:

To date, it has been estimated that 28 children have died of malnutrition and starvation in northern Gaza.

And the only reason someone dies of malnutrition is because there's no food available?? And why do we have news reports of one of those kids Israel was supposedly starving--yet the rest of his family looks fine? And why does Gaza have about half the death by malnutrition rate that the US does?

I don't know about those so called "reports".

Note that you haven't addressed the issue of Hamas blocking food, just ran off into irrelevancies.

And didn't you notice the skin-and-bones kid they were parading around as evidence?

How Israel’s restrictions on aid put Gaza on the brink of famine

About 500 trucks entered Gaza each day before the war, a figure that aid agencies have not come close to reaching since the start of the conflict. In February, just 98 trucks per day crossed into Gaza on average, according to the United Nations, compared with an average of 170 per day in January. On several days last month, the number of trucks was in the single digits.

That's UN data. That conveniently doesn't count stuff which enters Gaza and then sits there, thus blaming Israel for things which are the fault of the UN or Hamas. Strangely we also see that private shipments get through far better than aid shipments. Seems the UN won't pay market wages.

If food aid is reduced by 80% (500 truckloads a day to less than 100 per day), there is going to be significant health issues due to malnutrition. The problem of getting INTO GAZA is Isreal, not Hamas or the UN. The problem of distributing food within Gaza is a different issue.

Read.

I pointed out that the "data" you are using is a lie. The UN is not counting trucks entering Gaza, they are counting trucks reaching distribution points. Hamas blocks them and you think Israel did wrong.

Regardless of the number, it is an atrocity that civilians lured into a "safe zone" and then bombed and killed. At least be honest and stop the bs spinning and admit that Gaza civilian lives don't matter at all. Despite the rhetoric to the contrary, in the zeal to kill Hamas at almost any cost, Gazan civlians are going to continue to die at the hands of the IDF.

And once again you won't understand that the situation changed.

Yes, Gazan civilians are going to die--that's a Hamas weapon. A very big weapon. And you willingly pick it up and point it at Israel.

Nobody has been willing to address the unpleasant reality that Hamas is very skilled at putting civilians in harm's way. The only "answers" make the Republicans look sane.

 

[laughing dog]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Note that you haven't addressed the issue of Hamas blocking food, just ran off into irrelevancies.

It had mothing to do with the issue of the IDF restricting food into Gaza: it is a deflection from the issue.

I pointed out that the "data" you are using is a lie. The UN is not counting trucks entering Gaza, they are counting trucks reaching distribution points. Hamas blocks them and you think Israel did wrong.

You are not a reliable source of information on the situation in this region.

And once again you won't understand that the situation changed.

Yes, Gazan civilians are going to die--that's a Hamas weapon. A very big weapon. And you willingly pick it up and point it at Israel.

Nobody has been willing to address the unpleasant reality that Hamas is very skilled at putting civilians in harm's way. The only "answers" make the Republicans look sane.

It doesn’t take much skill to put civilians on harms way. As Hamas and the IDF demonstrate on a daily basis.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Not at all. You claimed the death toll was an indication, I explicitly said it was not. I was just showing you the results of your position.

Note that you haven't addressed the issue of Hamas blocking food, just ran off into irrelevancies.

It had mothing to do with the issue of the IDF restricting food into Gaza: it is a deflection from the issue.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Because you first need to establish that Israel is meaningfully restricting food.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Iran masterminded anti-Israel protest in Canadian university

Iran was behind the anti-Israel protests on at least one Canadian university in an attempt to undermine Western support for Israel and fuel divisiveness on Canadian soil, sources combating digital disinformation told Iran International.

www.iranintl.com

Seems Iran was behind some protests in Canada. US also, perhaps??

 

[bilby]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Not at all. You claimed the death toll was an indication, I explicitly said it was not. I was just showing you the results of your position.

He claimed that the civilian death toll was an indication.

If the civilian death toll defines right and wrong then Ukraine is in the right because they're losing more civilians.

Of course, your next knee-jerk will be to say that Gaza lacks civilians; That not being in uniform is no indication of non-combatant status. To which I suggest using not the civilian death toll, but the infant death toll, as our metric.

Again, by this measure, the bad guys in Ukraine are the Russians; And in the Israel/Gaza conflict, Hamas were the bad guys, up until Bibi ordered a genocidal invasion of Gaza; Since when Israel have been the bad guys. All of which looks both pretty damn accurate, and pretty accurately damning.

 

[laughing dog]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Not at all. You claimed the death toll was an indication, I explicitly said it was not. I was just showing you the results of your position.

I never said it was an indication of right and wrong.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Because you first need to establish that Israel is meaningfully restricting food.

Been there, done that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Not at all. You claimed the death toll was an indication, I explicitly said it was not. I was just showing you the results of your position.

He claimed that the civilian death toll was an indication.

If the civilian death toll defines right and wrong then Ukraine is in the right because they're losing more civilians.

The numbers were for civilians + combatants, he was not specifying civilian.

And while Ukraine is losing more civilians Russia is losing more troops.

Of course, your next knee-jerk will be to say that Gaza lacks civilians; That not being in uniform is no indication of non-combatant status. To which I suggest using not the civilian death toll, but the infant death toll, as our metric.

I've never said everyone in Gaza is a combatant. He used total death counts, not civilian.

Again, by this measure, the bad guys in Ukraine are the Russians; And in the Israel/Gaza conflict, Hamas were the bad guys, up until Bibi ordered a genocidal invasion of Gaza; Since when Israel have been the bad guys. All of which looks both pretty damn accurate, and pretty accurately damning.

Israel typically kills more in Gaza than Hamas kills in Israel. Hamas attacks far, far more but far less effectively.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the death toll defines right and wrong then Russia is in the right because they're losing more people.

Your premise is an idiotic straw man.

Not at all. You claimed the death toll was an indication, I explicitly said it was not. I was just showing you the results of your position.

I never said it was an indication of right and wrong.

Then why did you bring it up 60 messages ago?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Because you first need to establish that Israel is meaningfully restricting food.

Been there, done that.

You used the UN data which is known to be bogus. They're not counting the stuff that Hamas lets sit.

 

[bilby]

The numbers were for civilians + combatants, he was not specifying civilian.

His post immediately prior to the ones I quoted said:

Stop derailing the discussion - killing civilians is neither a sporting event nor warfare.

My bold.

That's explicitly specifying civilian.