Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[TomC]

Like Trump, Bibi is now making decisions based on keeping himself out of prison.
Nothing good can come of it.
"War crime" is more of a redundancy than an oxymoron IMHO.
Hamas and Israel are of a piece. Religion ...

Unfortunately for all Semitic people,
the Gazan counterpart to Bibi knows that he is not much at risk of prosecution.

Nobody much cares about war crimes committed by devout Muslims. That's just Muslims being Muslims.
Everyone knows that.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

On my campus, there has been a "Free Palestine" table with students. No violence, no yelling, no disruption whatsoever.

I suspect that the MIT one is pretty similar. One thing about that one is next to the lawn is an all-purpose chapel and different groups may go there including Hillel and so the proximity creates opportunity for conflict. I think the claims by the MIT professor telling Jewish students not to go there are a bit of hyperbole given this and it fits more with trying to silence the protestors' message.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Under the same circumstances, absolutely.
Under only slightly different circumstances, maybe and maybe not.
But with the history, I don't think it's even possible to have the same circumstances.
Tom

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances. What I expect instead: here are my a priori, objective rules for when it's a war crime and when it's not, completely independent of having looked up circumstances of when which people did what and based completely reasonably on logic.

 

[Politesse]

...used Gazans as human shields. I call that a war crime.

If Israel has done it would you call it a war crime, too? I'm not saying you wouldn't. I am asking.

Under the same circumstances, absolutely.
Under only slightly different circumstances, maybe and maybe not.
But with the history, I don't think it's even possible to have the same circumstances.
Tom

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances. What I expect instead: here are my a priori, objective rules for when it's a war crime and when it's not, completely independent of having looked up circumstances of when which people did what and based completely reasonably on logic.

I have no idea why you would expect that, when this whole thread more or less is about arbitrarily deciding when it is right or wrong to

1. Stage public protests
2. Savagely beat and arrest public protesters
2. Commit mass infanticide

based on the poster's personal feelings about the cause they're doing it for.

I do not think any consistency whatsoever will be forthcoming.

 

[Elixir]

Nobody much cares about war crimes committed by devout Muslims. That's just Muslims being Muslims.
Everyone knows that.
Tom

I guess Bibi wants Israelis to join the club.
My dad was born to a straight-up Ashkenazi Jewish family in 1896. In Alabama.
His attitude toward Jews as cultural unit was probably much like mine now. He died in 1959 so I don’t know for sure, but I heard some things, and heard some things about the things I heard.
Bottom line - I don’t think most Israelis OR most Jews favor Bibi, his approach to this conflict or his continuance as head of State. Joining the war crimes club has never been their ambition AFAIK.

I think the whole idea of a _____ (insert religion) State, simply lays grounds for religious violence, regardless of what ‘regular people’ want.

 

[TomC]

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances.

I completely agree.
In what way are we disagreeing?

So, what objective rules do you think exist distinguishing between the behavior of Gazans and Israel?
I try to apply the same rules and more importantly the same ethics and morality.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances.

I completely agree.
In what way are we disagreeing?

So, what objective rules do you think exist distinguishing between the behavior of Gazans and Israel?
I try to apply the same rules and more importantly the same ethics and morality.

https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians to remove suspicious objects from roads, to tell people to come out of their homes so the military can arrest them, to stand in front of soldiers while the latter shoot from behind them, and more. The Palestinian civilians were chosen at random for these tasks, and could not refuse the demand placed on them by armed soldiers.


...

 

[Elixir]

what objective rules do you think exist distinguishing between the behavior of Gazans and Israel?

Well, in terms of causing total civilian and military deaths, Israel is way ahead right now. But they better keep the numbers coming, or the Muzzies could catch up!

 

[TomC]

Nobody much cares about war crimes committed by devout Muslims. That's just Muslims being Muslims.
Everyone knows that.
Tom

I guess Bibi wants Israelis to join the club.
My dad was born to a straight-up Ashkenazi Jewish family in 1896. In Alabama.
His attitude toward Jews as cultural unit was probably much like mine now. He died in 1959 so I don’t know for sure, but I heard some things, and heard some things about the things I heard.
Bottom line - I don’t think most Israelis OR most Jews favor Bibi, his approach to this conflict or his continuance as head of State. Joining the war crimes club has never been their ambition AFAIK.

How about you don't change the subject from the war crime perps to Jews with an anecdote?

How about we stick to the modern world situation?
Did Netanyahu launch an attack on Gaza or did Gaza launch an attack on Israel?
Tom

 

[TomC]

Here is how that comes across: when people I don't like do it, it's a war crime, but when people I like do it, well, those are different circumstances.

I completely agree.
In what way are we disagreeing?

So, what objective rules do you think exist distinguishing between the behavior of Gazans and Israel?
I try to apply the same rules and more importantly the same ethics and morality.

https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians to remove suspicious objects from roads, to tell people to come out of their homes so the military can arrest them, to stand in front of soldiers while the latter shoot from behind them, and more. The Palestinian civilians were chosen at random for these tasks, and could not refuse the demand placed on them by armed soldiers.


...

Lemme know what your link says.
Or don't.
I know enough about the source to stop caring.
Tom

Thanks for adding the last part, I suppose.
I still don't see it as using human shields, but whatever.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Did Netanyahu launch an attack on Gaza or did Gaza launch an attack on Israel?
Tom

My recollection is that Hamas (not “Gaza”) launched a vicious surprise attack on Israeli civilians, killing and kidnapping several thousand civilians, largely without targeting or encountering Israeli military. . To which the Israeli response was to announce a retaliatory strike against Hamas, then proceeded to kill ten times as many Gaza’s civilians* as if a mega 10x-tit-for-tat murder campaign was an appropriate response.

As I said above, I think “war crime” is a redundancy, and if ever there was a justifiable “both sides” trope, this would be it.
There are not so very fine people - on both sides.

* in ostensible pursuit of Hamas of course

 

[Elixir]

How about you don't change the subject from the war crime perps to Jews with an anecdote?

How about you respond to the part about war crimes perps if that’s what you really want to discuss:

I don’t think most Israelis OR most Jews favor Bibi, his approach to this conflict or his continuance as head of State. Joining the war crimes club has never been their ambition AFAIK.

Feel free to ignore the part about why I think that.

Do you disagree with any of my post #531?

 

[TomC]

My recollection is that Hamas (not “Gaza”) launched a vicious surprise attack on Israeli civilians, killing and kidnapping several thousand civilians, largely without targeting or encountering Israeli military.

How do you distinguish between Hamas and Gazans?
Jimmy doesn't think that Gazans have any leadership. The attack was launched by Gazans, obviously.

But what I keep hearing about here and from the student protesters is about how Israel defending itself is a war crime. Posters like Politesse keep referring to this as genocide, vengeance and war crimes.
Hamas is barely mentioned.
Apparently, Muslim tribalist violence is taken for granted.
Tom

 

[TomC]

How about you respond to the part about war crimes perps if that’s what you really want to discuss:

I have.
Over and over.
People keep hand waving away war crimes when they are committed by Muslims.
Where is the international outrage concerning Muslim war crimes?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Hamas and Gazans?

The ones carrying guns, kidnapping people etc are likely Hamas. Others may or may not be. I do not believe that most Gazans support Hamas’ actions.
Likewise the Israelis carrying guns, arresting and killing people are probably IDF. Others may or may not be, since military service is required in Israel as I understand. I do not believe most Israelis support Bibi’s actions.

 

[TomC]

I do not believe that most Gazans support Hamas’ actions.

Why not?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

How about you respond to the part about war crimes perps if that’s what you really want to discuss:

I have.
Over and over.
People keep hand waving away war crimes when they are committed by Muslims.
Where is the international outrage concerning Muslim war crimes?
Tom

You conflate counterexamples with handwaving even as you handwave them away.
There is plenty of outrage against Muslims. Jews, OTOH are a protected species because grandpa was killed by German Nazis. Only now are they starting to draw international criticism, after their* ongoing response to the overnight criminal atrocity they suffered at the hands of Hamas, has been seen as disproportionate.

10x seems sufficiently punitive, don’t you agree?


*Bibi’s

 

[TomC]

There is plenty of outrage against Muslims.

Such as?
Can you give me an example of the outrage against Muslims?
Or any reason to believe that the outrage against Muslims comes anywhere close to the outrage against Jewish people?
Tom
ETA ~Outrage here in the USA. ~

 

[Elixir]

Do you live under a rock?
Shit Tom, I know you remember the anti Muslim sentiment during the Iraq war, which killed over a million Muzzies according to some estimates. Western European countries have seen continuous anti Muslim demonstrations and acts of terror.
I don’t recall the USA giving Israel anything but $Billions, do you?
I mean yes, I don’t want to minimize our own treasured domestic terrorists, who like to shoot up Jews along with Blacks, Latinos, Asians and the dreaded Others.
They’re there, and Jews are definitely among their fav game animals.

 

[laughing dog]

Like Trump, Bibi is now making decisions based on keeping himself out of prison.
Nothing good can come of it.

Why do you think Bibi is in more danger of prison than Hillary Clinton?
Trump is in little danger of prison.
What are you talking about?
Tom

Mr. Netanhyu is under indictment for corruption charges. Netanyahu corruption charges.