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Common Christian/Muslim argument: I have an answer and you don't!

If you're going to include ongoing discussion as giving credibility to the source, then Harry Potter has LOT more going for it than the Bible. Check the sizes of archives of Harry Potter fanfic vs. Bible Fanfic; check who has a bigger section of Universal Studios' theme park, Harry's world or Christain theology; check the action figures on Amazon.

Does that include the same vigorous scrutiny by the same multitude of scholars who studied the bible? Bartman & co. probably wouldn't waste that much time on Potter let alone space-goat since he'd be sure to conclude a purely made up fantasy from just few paragrahs of literature.
 
If you're going to include ongoing discussion as giving credibility to the source, then Harry Potter has LOT more going for it than the Bible. Check the sizes of archives of Harry Potter fanfic vs. Bible Fanfic; check who has a bigger section of Universal Studios' theme park, Harry's world or Christain theology; check the action figures on Amazon.

Does that include the same vigorous scrutiny by the same multitude of scholars who studied the bible? Bartman & co. probably wouldn't waste that much time on Potter let alone space-goat since he'd be sure to conclude a purely made up fantasy from just few paragrahs of literature.

Not only did the bible not have as many scholars study it in the first 20 years as HP, the bible wasn’t even _written_ in the first 20 years after it allegedly happened. So there! Give HP 2000 years before you try to compare Ehrman!
 
Not only did the bible not have as many scholars study it in the first 20 years as HP, the bible wasn’t even _written_ in the first 20 years after it allegedly happened. So there! Give HP 2000 years before you try to compare Ehrman!

Writing about historical events is like that , books on world wars for example being put together ,whereas fantasy stories are instantaneous (new series of Potter films and books on the way no doubt)
 
Writing about historical events is like that , books on world wars for example being put together ,whereas fantasy stories are instantaneous (new series of Potter films and books on the way no doubt)

Wars have contemporaneous accounts through living eye witnesses, video, pictures, etc. At least nowadays. Back before that stuff was available, you still had witness accounts and written documentation that when pieced together, provided a pretty useable description of events. And we know for sure that wars happen. For example, the Battle of Marathon took place nearly two and half millennia ago, but there's little doubt that it happened the way the history books say it did. We know that because of eyewitness accounts, documentation leading up to, during and following the event. Further, its impact on the culture and other impacts following it can be traced back to the battle.

No one waits 20 years to write about a battle or war or some other momentous event. Perspectives might change, information might be added, but the scoreboard remains the same.

At any rate, we're all familiar with the game of telephone. So when a history of something passed down via oral tradition after 20-30 years is put into writing, it's a pretty damn good bet that more than a few things changed.

Did Jesus actually live? I don't know. I think it's quite possible though. There's nothing crazy or far out about a revered religious figure in any era of human history. Hell, we're chock full of 'em. And it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that many of the things he said survived intact. But the magical stuff? Nah. And looking at other religions prior to Jesus's time, it's pretty clear that a lot of the mythology was taken from somewhere else.

Then there's the whole deal with how the Bible got put together. But that's another topic altogether.
 
If you're going to include ongoing discussion as giving credibility to the source, then Harry Potter has LOT more going for it than the Bible. Check the sizes of archives of Harry Potter fanfic vs. Bible Fanfic; check who has a bigger section of Universal Studios' theme park, Harry's world or Christain theology; check the action figures on Amazon.

Does that include the same vigorous scrutiny by the same multitude of scholars who studied the bible? Bartman & co. probably wouldn't waste that much time on Potter let alone space-goat since he'd be sure to conclude a purely made up fantasy from just few paragrahs of literature.
Dude, if you don't like the comparison, don't bring up the comparison. Then you don't have to try to special case your way back out of the comparison...
 
Wars have contemporaneous accounts through living eye witnesses, video, pictures, etc. At least nowadays. Back before that stuff was available, you still had witness accounts and written documentation that when pieced together, provided a pretty useable description of events. And we know for sure that wars happen. For example, the Battle of Marathon took place nearly two and half millennia ago, but there's little doubt that it happened the way the history books say it did. We know that because of eyewitness accounts, documentation leading up to, during and following the event. Further, its impact on the culture and other impacts following it can be traced back to the battle.

And so , the battle of Marathon example, for arguments sake: Would you not think this would be the same from Hebrew accounts (also), even if you were to say those events didn't quite happen the way that's often protrayed? What is twenty years anyway when eye witnesses would still be alive?

No one waits 20 years to write about a battle or war or some other momentous event. Perspectives might change, information might be added, but the scoreboard remains the same.

At any rate, we're all familiar with the game of telephone. So when a history of something passed down via oral tradition after 20-30 years is put into writing, it's a pretty damn good bet that more than a few things changed.

I don't think people of that time were waiting 20 years for a bible to appear although they'd expect it to be written eventually,especially when they were at that time, in the very period of early Christianity , "still fresh" in their minds.

Did Jesus actually live? I don't know. I think it's quite possible though. There's nothing crazy or far out about a revered religious figure in any era of human history. Hell, we're chock full of 'em. And it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that many of the things he said survived intact. But the magical stuff? Nah. And looking at other religions prior to Jesus's time, it's pretty clear that a lot of the mythology was taken from somewhere else.

Then there's the whole deal with how the Bible got put together. But that's another topic altogether.

Well there are various pov's to mythology. One example : The bible acknowledges various "gods" (Recognises certain mythology) and the various worships and traditions. Like Nimrod who is the same entity under many names in many cultures (after people spoke different languages).

Although still under study and investigating. some of the names for example: Are believed to be associated to Nimrod . (Im using a list of a few years ago as an exmple, which may have been updated, names added to or crossed off)

Gilgamesh
Baal
Melqart
Adonis
Eshmun
Dumuzi
Dionysus
Bacchus
Orion
Mithra
Apollo
Ra
Tammuz
Osiris

It would seem to be a much smaller world than realised ,if it were the case. Even if only some of the names listed were Nimrod it would be quite interesting.
 
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Dude, if you don't like the comparison, don't bring up the comparison. Then you don't have to try to special case your way back out of the comparison...

No probs with comparisons , I would expect the same scrutiny to make the comparisons between the two.
 
The Battle of Marathon took place several hundred years before the oldest written documents we have - Papyrus Oxyrhynchus - that were reportedly written by Herodotus.
 
If you're going to include ongoing discussion as giving credibility to the source, then Harry Potter has LOT more going for it than the Bible. Check the sizes of archives of Harry Potter fanfic vs. Bible Fanfic; check who has a bigger section of Universal Studios' theme park, Harry's world or Christain theology; check the action figures on Amazon.

Does that include the same vigorous scrutiny by the same multitude of scholars who studied the bible? Bartman & co. probably wouldn't waste that much time on Potter let alone space-goat since he'd be sure to conclude a purely made up fantasy from just few paragrahs of literature.

Are you sure you want to bring academics into this discussion?

Many theology schools need to hire crisis counselors to help students keep their faith after learning about the origins of the Bible, textual analysis.

Large portions of the Bible are fabricated (such as the entire Pentateuch), and the rest of it is unverifiable. At best, we can corroborate the names of places and peoples.
 
How did we end up on a completely different topic?

Christians and Muslims are so good at changing the subject when they know they are wrong.

The fact that the Bible was found to be not credible by academics is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that I have an answer to the ultimate question a and Christians do not have an answer to that same question. As per the logic of Christian arguments, this proves that the space goat is real.

Christians deny the space goat even after I proved the space goat because they hate the space goat and because they want to do bad things.
 
Are you sure you want to bring academics into this discussion?

If academics is to your advantage, would you not want to include it? I suppose it would conflict with the cosmic-billy notion, which would then be useless an argument.


Many theology schools need to hire crisis counselors to help students keep their faith after learning about the origins of the Bible, textual analysis.
Interesting to see who's textual analysis, individuals take to. I know some have become atheists ... at the same time, atheists have become theists though granted ,not in the same degree.

Large portions of the Bible are fabricated (such as the entire Pentateuch), and the rest of it is unverifiable. "At best, we can corroborate the names of places and peoples".

Not entirely but some parts at least?
 
If academics is to your advantage, would you not want to include it? I suppose it would conflict with the cosmic-billy notion, which would then be useless an argument.



Interesting to see who's textual analysis, individuals take to. I know some have become atheists ... at the same time, atheists have become theists though granted ,not in the same degree.

Large portions of the Bible are fabricated (such as the entire Pentateuch), and the rest of it is unverifiable. "At best, we can corroborate the names of places and peoples".

Not entirely but some parts at least?

Your opinions suggest that you are getting your information from Christian sources and that you are carefully avoiding academic sources.

Not that it matters.

I have an answer to the ultimate question and you don't.

Why does God exist?

Isn't a partial hypothesis better than no hypothesis (to borrow your own words)? Should we not therefore conclude based on your own logic that the space goat is real?

Why do you deny the space goat?

Is it because you hate him?

Or is it because you want to do bad things because you are a bad person? Is that why you deny the space goat?

Do you hate the space goat because you're angry about the fact that I have an answer and you don't?
 
It's better to have a partial hypothesis than no hypothesis. Maybe you are ok with being ignorant, but I am not. Therefore, space goat.
 
There are a lot of Christian and Muslim arguments that boil down to "I have an answer and you don't, therefore my answer is correct."

My position - even if I wasn't certain - would be that a weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis. But if you're OK with ignorance, suit yourself.

First, although we are not sure why the universe exists, we have some pretty good ideas. Inflationary cosmology gets us a long way towards explaining how the present day universe came to exist from a very small, very dense point, by describing how spacetime can expand exponentially through the action of quantum fields. We even have experimental data that supports such a hypothesis (look up 2013 Planck data). Your assertion that atheists in general, or cosmologists/physicists in particular, have no hypothesis is a falsehood.

Second, the holy books that Christians and Muslims look to for answers are compilations of mythology and folklore, mixed in with stories that their authors made up. That is obvious from even a cursory, unbiased review of the Bible and Quran. The supernatural claims in these books are unsupported by evidence or even reason. Christians and Muslims have a hard time believing that the universe exists because of naturalistic causes that could someday be completely explained by science, but have no problem believing that an intelligent, self aware, technologically advanced entity capable of creating universes just happens to exist. Hypocritical much?

While it is hypothetically possible that our universe was created through the agency of some intelligent entity that exists outside its boundaries, it is virtually impossible that said entity resembles the gods described in the Bible and the Quran, or that the authors of these old books had any knowledge of this entity.
 
There are a lot of Christian and Muslim arguments that boil down to "I have an answer and you don't, therefore my answer is correct."

My position - even if I wasn't certain - would be that a weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis. But if you're OK with ignorance, suit yourself.

First, although we are not sure why the universe exists, we have some pretty good ideas.

Why questions are philosophy not science.
Perhaps you mean "how".

Inflationary cosmology gets us a long way towards explaining how the present day universe came to exist from a very small, very dense point, by describing how spacetime can expand exponentially through the action of quantum fields. We even have experimental data that supports such a hypothesis (look up 2013 Planck data).

You'll get no argument from me on that. The bible says the universe is expanding.

Your assertion that atheists in general, or cosmologists/physicists in particular, have no hypothesis is a falsehood.

Where did I assert that?
I haven't and wouldn't assert that someone has no hypothesis/theory/belief.
They can say so themselves. And claiming that the universe is uncaused IS a theory, so no way am I accusing atheists of having no theory.
But what I DO contend is that 'a' theory is better than no theory and that, if you don't know, you're not in a very strong position to declare that nobody knows.

Second, the holy books that Christians and Muslims look to for answers are compilations of mythology and folklore, mixed in with stories that their authors made up. That is obvious from even a cursory, unbiased review of the Bible and Quran.

Nope. Firstly the book came after the events described IN the book.
Moses didn't read about God in "The Bible"
Job didn't trust in a God he discovered in the Old Testament.
Secondly, your claim that everything in the bible is "made up" mythology is just that. A claim.
Thirdly, you don't get to conflate atheism with the word "unbiased". Neither do you get to assume that biblical theists aren't unbiased. It is quite circular to argue that someone only believes the evidence because of their biased predisposition to believe the evidence.

The supernatural claims in these books are unsupported by evidence or even reason.

They are actually very well supported by evidence and reason.

Christians and Muslims have a hard time believing that the universe exists because of naturalistic causes that could someday be completely explained by science,

God is entirely natural.
And I know very few biblical theists who think it's an irreconcilable choice between science OR theism.
Just as science discovered how electricity 'works' so too will it eventually discover that there's nothing really all that miraculous about the abilities of a Higher Being.
Show the caveman a cigarette lighter and he thinks the flame is a miracle.
If aliens show up in a time machine and anti-gravity hoverboards are we all going to bow down and worship their miracles?
No. We will assume that they know stuff we haven't learned yet.
What other 'miracles' might those alien life forms be able to do? Change water into wine? Heal disease using their mind?
The scientific mind says mysteries can be solved/understood. It says sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
So why would we dismiss as fiction something in the bible we don't understand?
Why so skeptical as to the possibility that;

...an intelligent, self aware, technologically advanced entity capable of creating universes just happens to exist.

Where's you open mind?

Hypocritical much?

I was thinking the same about you.


While it is hypothetically possible that our universe was created through the agency of some intelligent entity that exists outside its boundaries, it is virtually impossible that said entity resembles the gods described in the Bible and the Quran, or that the authors of these old books had any knowledge of this entity.

I agree it's very unlikely God resembles your interpretation of what they wrote.
 
First, although we are not sure why the universe exists, we have some pretty good ideas.

Why questions are philosophy not science.
Perhaps you mean "how".

It depends on the level of abstraction we are using in the discussion. In fundamental physics there is no concept of cause and effect. Everything is probabilistic wave functions, and we use the concept of particles and fundamental forces to define the interactions of these functions. If we confine ourselves to a discussion of fundamental physics, which would be appropriate to a discussion on origins, both universal and human, then the word how is appropriate.

But most regular people, including someone like yourself, don't use the language of physics when they talk about the emergent properties of the universe that we experience through our senses, which is the world of humans and trees and computers. In this layer of abstraction, we (usually erroneously) perceive cause and effect, and we often use the word why instead of how. So tell me, do you want to continue this discussion in the language of physics or in the language of everyday experience?


Inflationary cosmology gets us a long way towards explaining how the present day universe came to exist from a very small, very dense point, by describing how spacetime can expand exponentially through the action of quantum fields. We even have experimental data that supports such a hypothesis (look up 2013 Planck data).

You'll get no argument from me on that. The bible says the universe is expanding.

Really? I was not aware of that. Where does the Bible describe Inflationary and Big Bang expansion of the universe?

Also, you may be confusing inflationary cosmology with Big Bang cosmology. They are not the same. Inflationary cosmology describes the proposed mechanism by which our universe (or a tiny low entropy speck of spacetime) expanded exponentially in a trillion, trillion, trillionth of a second following t=0. This expansion is believed to have been driven by a scalar field similar to the Higgs Field. Big bang cosmology describes the much, much slower, steady state expansion of the universe which followed inflation, and which is driven by dark energy.

The point is that physicists have a model that describes the formation of the visible universe from a tiny, low entropy state to what we can observe today (about 90 billion light years or so). We have measurements that appear to confirm various aspects of this model. We are not certain if this model is correct, but a testable (?) hypothesis exists. Your assertion that atheists have no answers is a falsehood.


Your assertion that atheists in general, or cosmologists/physicists in particular, have no hypothesis is a falsehood.

Where did I assert that?

Here.

There are a lot of Christian and Muslim arguments that boil down to "I have an answer and you don't, therefore my answer is correct."

My position - even if I wasn't certain - would be that a weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis. But if you're OK with ignorance, suit yourself.

At least, that is how I read it.



I haven't and wouldn't assert that someone has no hypothesis/theory/belief.
They can say so themselves. And claiming that the universe is uncaused IS a theory, so no way am I accusing atheists of having no theory.
But what I DO contend is that 'a' theory is better than no theory and that, if you don't know, you're not in a very strong position to declare that nobody knows.

A search of current literature on physics and cosmology dealing with origins will yield you no results for causation. None whatsoever. Because, at the fundamental level, our universe is not described by cause and effects. It is all wave functions and interactions. And, as I have just pointed out, physicists do have models that appear to answer at least some of the origins questions.

The "theory" that the universe was created by the god described in the Bible has no evidence to support it. Prove me wrong, show me your work. Explain

1. How you can verify that this god creature exists, and
2. Provide details on how this god created the universe.

Simple. Yet theists refuse to get the point. Your Biblegood is about as likely to be the universal creator as Bantu, the Supreme Cosmic Toad, which allegedly farted the universe into existence. Your "theory" is not just unsupported, it has no explanatory power. It avoids the questions of our origins rather than trying to come up with a real answer.



Second, the holy books that Christians and Muslims look to for answers are compilations of mythology and folklore, mixed in with stories that their authors made up. That is obvious from even a cursory, unbiased review of the Bible and Quran.

Nope. Firstly the book came after the events described IN the book.
Moses didn't read about God in "The Bible"
Job didn't trust in a God he discovered in the Old Testament.
Secondly, your claim that everything in the bible is "made up" mythology is just that. A claim.
Thirdly, you don't get to conflate atheism with the word "unbiased". Neither do you get to assume that biblical theists aren't unbiased. It is quite circular to argue that someone only believes the evidence because of their biased predisposition to believe the evidence.

The supernatural claims in these books are unsupported by evidence or even reason.

They are actually very well supported by evidence and reason.

Then stop dicking around and show us the evidence. Show us your god, or a reasonable facsimile, and explain how this god exists and does stuff. You won't do this because you have no evidence, just a book of old stories that you have indoctrinated yourself into believing.
Christians and Muslims have a hard time believing that the universe exists because of naturalistic causes that could someday be completely explained by science,

God is entirely natural.
And I know very few biblical theists who think it's an irreconcilable choice between science OR theism.
Just as science discovered how electricity 'works' so too will it eventually discover that there's nothing really all that miraculous about the abilities of a Higher Being.
Show the caveman a cigarette lighter and he thinks the flame is a miracle.
If aliens show up in a time machine and anti-gravity hoverboards are we all going to bow down and worship their miracles?
No. We will assume that they know stuff we haven't learned yet.
What other 'miracles' might those alien life forms be able to do? Change water into wine? Heal disease using their mind?
The scientific mind says mysteries can be solved/understood. It says sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
So why would we dismiss as fiction something in the bible we don't understand?
Why so skeptical as to the possibility that;

I am skeptical of that possibility because I have seen no evidence. And because the Bible is contradicted by reality in many of its claims, supernatural or otherwise. The Bible reads exactly like you would expect a book of mythology written 2,000 years ago to read.

Theists like yourself will keep on typing post after post but cannot be persuaded to provide evidence to support your beliefs. How hard can it be? I will post my sources on how physicists believe the universe came to be if you would like me to. Show me yours and I will show you mine.

...an intelligent, self aware, technologically advanced entity capable of creating universes just happens to exist.

Where's you open mind?

I am open to the possibility. All you have to do to convince me is to provide evidence to support your claims. Why are you so unwilling to do that?

While it is hypothetically possible that our universe was created through the agency of some intelligent entity that exists outside its boundaries, it is virtually impossible that said entity resembles the gods described in the Bible and the Quran, or that the authors of these old books had any knowledge of this entity.

I agree it's very unlikely God resembles your interpretation of what they wrote.

The god described in the Bible is a petty minded tyrant and despot who does not hesitate to order genocide and mass murder, and will torture everyone who doesn't bow down to him for all eternity. He is also a complete fuckup who cannot get a project done right. He also has an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives. Biblegod sounds just like the kind of god that our ancestors from 2,000 years ago might invent. Would you like me to elaborate and quote passages from the Bible that support my statements now?
 
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There are a lot of Christian and Muslim arguments that boil down to "I have an answer and you don't, therefore my answer is correct."

An answer which is as little as 1% correct is better than no answer - ie atheism
 
First, although we are not sure why the universe exists, we have some pretty good ideas.

Why questions are philosophy not science.
Perhaps you mean "how".

Inflationary cosmology gets us a long way towards explaining how the present day universe came to exist from a very small, very dense point, by describing how spacetime can expand exponentially through the action of quantum fields. We even have experimental data that supports such a hypothesis (look up 2013 Planck data).

You'll get no argument from me on that. The bible says the universe is expanding.

Your assertion that atheists in general, or cosmologists/physicists in particular, have no hypothesis is a falsehood.

Where did I assert that?
I haven't and wouldn't assert that someone has no hypothesis/theory/belief.
They can say so themselves. And claiming that the universe is uncaused IS a theory, so no way am I accusing atheists of having no theory.
But what I DO contend is that 'a' theory is better than no theory and that, if you don't know, you're not in a very strong position to declare that nobody knows.

Second, the holy books that Christians and Muslims look to for answers are compilations of mythology and folklore, mixed in with stories that their authors made up. That is obvious from even a cursory, unbiased review of the Bible and Quran.

Nope. Firstly the book came after the events described IN the book.
Moses didn't read about God in "The Bible"
Job didn't trust in a God he discovered in the Old Testament.
Secondly, your claim that everything in the bible is "made up" mythology is just that. A claim.
Thirdly, you don't get to conflate atheism with the word "unbiased". Neither do you get to assume that biblical theists aren't unbiased. It is quite circular to argue that someone only believes the evidence because of their biased predisposition to believe the evidence.

The supernatural claims in these books are unsupported by evidence or even reason.

They are actually very well supported by evidence and reason.

Christians and Muslims have a hard time believing that the universe exists because of naturalistic causes that could someday be completely explained by science,

God is entirely natural.
And I know very few biblical theists who think it's an irreconcilable choice between science OR theism.
Just as science discovered how electricity 'works' so too will it eventually discover that there's nothing really all that miraculous about the abilities of a Higher Being.
Show the caveman a cigarette lighter and he thinks the flame is a miracle.
If aliens show up in a time machine and anti-gravity hoverboards are we all going to bow down and worship their miracles?
No. We will assume that they know stuff we haven't learned yet.
What other 'miracles' might those alien life forms be able to do? Change water into wine? Heal disease using their mind?
The scientific mind says mysteries can be solved/understood. It says sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
So why would we dismiss as fiction something in the bible we don't understand?
Why so skeptical as to the possibility that;

...an intelligent, self aware, technologically advanced entity capable of creating universes just happens to exist.

Where's you open mind?

Hypocritical much?

I was thinking the same about you.


While it is hypothetically possible that our universe was created through the agency of some intelligent entity that exists outside its boundaries, it is virtually impossible that said entity resembles the gods described in the Bible and the Quran, or that the authors of these old books had any knowledge of this entity.

I agree it's very unlikely God resembles your interpretation of what they wrote.

So it's agreed, then.

A weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis, therefore it is proved that the giant space goat created god.

Hint: Your argument "A weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis" suggests that you don't actually understand what a hypothesis is, and also that you lack understanding of the basic nature of truth and truth claims.
 
So it's agreed, then.

A weak hypothesis is better than no hypothesis, therefore it is proved that the giant space goat created god.
But is that really a weak hypothesis? It's a complete hypothesis. Explains everything.
That's another popular theist position. THEIR hypothesis explains where the universe came from, and Earth, and life, and the flagellum. They criticize evolution for being incomplete. "For evolution to be true, it would have to explain how order came out of disorder, how life came from nonlife, how intelligence came from rocks, how muscles formed in soup..." That sort of shopping list thrown at any science, as if it has to explain absolutely everything to be taken as even slightly accurate.
But they don't explain where God came from.
Your goat explains everything AND their god. So that would be better, right? Explains more?
 
There are a lot of Christian and Muslim arguments that boil down to "I have an answer and you don't, therefore my answer is correct."

An answer which is as little as 1% correct is better than no answer - ie atheism

Christians and Muslims don't have any answers to origin questions. They have stories made up by Bronze Age people who understood very little about how the universe works.

Based on the lack of evidence for gods, or any perceptible effects of gods in our universe, the rational conclusion would be to ignore the possibility that they exist. You are an atheist too when it comes to thousands of other gods that our ancestors have invented, all except for the one you have been indoctrinated into believing in. You don't have an answer, you have just convinced yourself that you do.
 
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