Common theist argument: "You know, I used to be an atheist myself..."

[Wiploc]

Since nobody is born theist, all theists used to be atheists.

Nonetheless, when theists use the I-used-to-be-an-atheist argument, they are usually lying. They say things like, "I used to be an atheist because I hated having to be good. I wanted to sin without consequence, so I denied my Lord."

You never hear atheists talking like that. It wouldn't make sense.

Suppose we reverse the argument. Suppose an atheist argued like this: "I used to be a Christian because I wanted to be a depraved sinner all week long and then have my slate wiped clean when took communion on Sunday. But then one day I woke up and realized that I should be good every day of the week, so I quit believing in gods."

Would anybody believe that bunk? No? Then nobody should believe theists making the equivalent I-used-to-be-an-atheist argument.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't know. If someone tells you that they used to be an atheist, the default position should be to believe them. We can't go around complaining that theists misrepresent our positions and don't listen to what we're saying when we correct them about it if we then turn around and don't accept what they're telling us when they're talking about their own positions.

If it turns out later on, after hearing what they have to say, that we can respond "Ya, being angry at God is very different than being an atheist, so you were mislabelling yourself" or something like that, then fine. However, we should start from a stance of assuming honest communication.

 

[skepticalbip]

I was a bit surprised when I heard that Joseph Campbell joined the Catholic Church before he died. It was so out of character with his life's work of exploring myths and mythology and recognizing them as such. I guess some people decide that "cramming for finals" can't hurt.

 

[Wiploc]

I was a bit surprised when I heard that Joseph Campbell joined the Catholic Church before he died. It was so out of character with his life's work of exploring myths and mythology and recognizing them as such. I guess some people decide that "cramming for finals" can't hurt.

He said at one point that truth isn't the point of mythology. He may have liked the church without caring whether it was true.

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If it turns out later on, after hearing what they have to say, that we can respond "Ya, being angry at God is very different than being an atheist, so you were mislabelling yourself" or something like that, then fine. However, we should start from a stance of assuming honest communication.

Sure. That works for me.

 

[abaddon]

I was a bit surprised when I heard that Joseph Campbell joined the Catholic Church before he died. It was so out of character with his life's work of exploring myths and mythology and recognizing them as such. I guess some people decide that "cramming for finals" can't hurt.

Citation? I googled and didn't find a mention, just the unanswered question "Did he?" asked many times.

 

[skepticalbip]

I was a bit surprised when I heard that Joseph Campbell joined the Catholic Church before he died. It was so out of character with his life's work of exploring myths and mythology and recognizing them as such. I guess some people decide that "cramming for finals" can't hurt.

Citation? I googled and didn't find a mention, just the unanswered question "Did he?" asked many times.

I don't have a citation, but I have been a big fan of Campbell for decades. I have a shelf of his books that have become dog eared. That is why I was a bit surprised when I watched an interview with him sometime in the 1980s when he was asked about his rejoining the church. I obviously don't recall the full conversation but he described how the richness of the ceremonies and rites had started him on his path and he was just returning home.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

It seems like every other Christian that I talk to claims to be a former atheist....

I used to be a Christian, then I became an atheist....then I grew up.

Why does it bother you what others believe?

 

[WAB]

I was a bit surprised when I heard that Joseph Campbell joined the Catholic Church before he died. It was so out of character with his life's work of exploring myths and mythology and recognizing them as such. I guess some people decide that "cramming for finals" can't hurt.

Citation? I googled and didn't find a mention, just the unanswered question "Did he?" asked many times.

I don't have a citation, but I have been a big fan of Campbell for decades. I have a shelf of his books that have become dog eared. That is why I was a bit surprised when I watched an interview with him sometime in the 1980s when he was asked about his rejoining the church. I obviously don't recall the full conversation but he described how the richness of the ceremonies and rites had started him on his path and he was just returning home.

George Santayana, a well known philosopher and poet, called himself a Catholic atheist.

Santayana died in a convent, surrounded by his beloved sisters.

The poet Percy Bysshe Shelley was a fierce atheist (He wrote a pamphlet called "The Necessity of Atheism"), but loved reading the KJV Bible.

I'm an agnostic but love old churches, cathedrals, religious art and iconography.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

I don't have a citation, but I have been a big fan of Campbell for decades. I have a shelf of his books that have become dog eared. That is why I was a bit surprised when I watched an interview with him sometime in the 1980s when he was asked about his rejoining the church. I obviously don't recall the full conversation but he described how the richness of the ceremonies and rites had started him on his path and he was just returning home.

George Santayana, a well known philosopher and poet, called himself a Catholic atheist. I believe he was famous for saying "There is no God and Mary is his mother."

Santayana died in a convent, surrounded by his beloved sisters.

I'm an agnostic but love old churches, cathedrals, religious art and iconography.

Interesting backstory. Santayana is most famous for his comment that those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the case of this thread, that includes both atheists and theists.

 

[James Brown]

Occasionally I've told people "I used to be a Christian." Unlike some others, I don't say it to bump up my credentials. It just happens to come up.

Inevitably, someone doesn't believe me. They accuse me of lying. Apparently, based on a Bible verse or two, a "Used-to-be Christian" can't exist. It's a contradiction like claiming to be a married bachelor.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Occasionally I've told people "I used to be a Christian." Unlike some others, I don't say it to bump up my credentials. It just happens to come up.

Inevitably, someone doesn't believe me. They accuse me of lying. Apparently, based on a Bible verse or two, a "Used-to-be Christian" can't exist. It's a contradiction like claiming to be a married bachelor.

Well, just tell them that you're one of those Christians who doesn't believe in God. Confuse them even more.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Occasionally I've told people "I used to be a Christian." Unlike some others, I don't say it to bump up my credentials. It just happens to come up.

Inevitably, someone doesn't believe me. They accuse me of lying. Apparently, based on a Bible verse or two, a "Used-to-be Christian" can't exist. It's a contradiction like claiming to be a married bachelor.

Well, just tell them that you're one of those Christians who doesn't believe in God. Confuse them even more.

...or either a Gnostic Christian or a Nontrinitarian Christian.

 

[skepticalbip]

Occasionally I've told people "I used to be a Christian." Unlike some others, I don't say it to bump up my credentials. It just happens to come up.

Inevitably, someone doesn't believe me. They accuse me of lying. Apparently, based on a Bible verse or two, a "Used-to-be Christian" can't exist. It's a contradiction like claiming to be a married bachelor.

Well, just tell them that you're one of those Christians who doesn't believe in God. Confuse them even more.

...or either a Gnostic Christian or a Nontrinitarian Christian.

And yet Jehovah's Witnesses are generally classified as Christians.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

...or either a Gnostic Christian or a Nontrinitarian Christian.

And yet Jehovah's Witnesses are generally classified as Christians.

Correct. Thanks for another example of the wide assortment of beliefs that are under the umbrella of "Christian".

 

[Politesse]

...or either a Gnostic Christian or a Nontrinitarian Christian.

And yet Jehovah's Witnesses are generally classified as Christians.

Correct. Thanks for another example of the wide assortment of beliefs that are under the umbrella of "Christian".

Indeed! Any religious tradition that has withstands the test of time gives birth to many, many children. Different communities and different generations need different things from religious life, and they re-shape it to fit those needs.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Correct. Thanks for another example of the wide assortment of beliefs that are under the umbrella of "Christian".

Indeed! Any religious tradition that has withstands the test of time gives birth to many, many children. Different communities and different generations need different things from religious life, and they re-shape it to fit those needs.

Also, all the things the religious traditions are referring to are fake and made up, so there's nothing to validate the various differences against in order to resolve the schisms that occur.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Correct. Thanks for another example of the wide assortment of beliefs that are under the umbrella of "Christian".

Indeed! Any religious tradition that has withstands the test of time gives birth to many, many children. Different communities and different generations need different things from religious life, and they re-shape it to fit those needs.

Also, all the things the religious traditions are referring to are fake and made up, so there's nothing to validate the various differences against in order to resolve the schisms that occur.

Instead of saying, "I was once christian," maybe we should say "I used to be a follower of demigods too. It was kinda cool talking to my favorite demigod, having all this magical stuff happening all around you. But then I grew up. Really bummed out about that. It was fun being a kid."

Religion is a spectrum. Christianity is in the range of radio waves because there's so much variation in frequency and amplitude. Humans just tune in and tune out depending on whatever fits their mood.

 

[Politesse]

Correct. Thanks for another example of the wide assortment of beliefs that are under the umbrella of "Christian".

Indeed! Any religious tradition that has withstands the test of time gives birth to many, many children. Different communities and different generations need different things from religious life, and they re-shape it to fit those needs.

Also, all the things the religious traditions are referring to are fake and made up, so there's nothing to validate the various differences against in order to resolve the schisms that occur.

Is this your opinion on the cause of all unresolved disputes, or do you make a special case just for religion?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, all the things the religious traditions are referring to are fake and made up, so there's nothing to validate the various differences against in order to resolve the schisms that occur.

Is this your opinion on the cause of all unresolved disputes, or do you make a special case just for religion?

Any disputes involving fictional characters.

For instance, some people will say that Batman is a dark and brooding loner who operates in the shadows outside the law and others will say that he's a happy and campy member of a team who hangs out in Commissioner Gordon's office and dances with hippies. Some will say that Batman's key characteristic is that he never crosses the line into killing people and others will say he drives around Gotham City machine-gunning people from the Batmobile and tossing batarangs into criminals' faces. Since there is no actual Batman to compare these various versions of the character to, none of these interpretations is any more or less wrong than any of the others. Many people have many strong and passionate views about which of these versions they prefer and which ones they despise, but none of those people are more "correct" about what Batman is like than any of the others and that's due to the fictional nature of Batman.

On the other hand, some people say that Barack Obama is a Muslim from Kenya who's been working tirelessly to turn America into a gay, Islamic Caliphate for the sake of evil and others say that he's a guy born in Hawaii who tried to enact a set of liberal policies. Since there is an actual Barack Obama, those claims can be tested against reality and one can be said to be more correct than the other and that's due to the non-fictional nature of Barack Obama.

Religious claims are of the Batman variety. If one group says that God is A, B and C and another group says that God is D, E and F, neither is more or less correct than the other due to the fact that there is no God to validate them against. The disputes about the nature of God can not be resolved in the way that disputes about non-fictional people can due to there being no entity to check the various claims against in order to resolve these disputes.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There can also be fictional accounts of actual people such as many of the stories we have of George Washington.

When all we have are sensational accounts of an alleged actual person we're simply listening to an author, experiencing a bit of artistic impression perhaps.

Finally, when all we have are incredibly sensational accounts of an incredibly sensational person or event, we can be certain we are reading fantasy, clearly art.

A few nights ago I was locking up a building with a workmate. It was late and as we walked through I listened to accounts of the ghosts this person has been experiencing in this very building. My response was to acknowledge that those experiences are genuine but that the ghosts are not. It seems to me that sensational claims about ghosts require equally sensational evidence, not simply noises in the dark, noises I hear also, and regularly.