Marvin Edwards
Veteran Member
Willing and middle earth have a lot in common. Not the least of which is irrelevance. First. Determinism isn't actually causal at all unless you have something that sets time t = 0 before things. As I understand it things are at time t = -1 as well. Will is a human construct searching for relevance because we believe in it so. We are individuals, separate and distinct entities for chissake. We were mindless chickens pecking at stuff until we began surviving. Now we're the height of life doing the work entropy was doing so poorly.
rat, tat, bumfp?
A person's will is their specific intent for the immediate ("I think I will have a banana now") or distant ("last will and testament") future. We usually choose what we will do. The choice is expressed as "I will X", where X is what we have decided to do. Once the will is set, that intention motivates and directs our subsequent actions (going to the fruit bowl, peeling and eating the banana, then disposing of the peel).
I think that's pretty much how our "will" works in empirical reality. The notion of "free will" has to do with the choosing operation itself. It is literally a freely chosen "I will".
What is it supposed to be free of? Cause and effect? No. If it were free of reliable causation we could never carry out our intent.
How about our own genetic dispositions and appetites? No. If it were free from us, then it would be someone else's will, not ours.
The choice only needs to be free of coercion and other forms of undue influence to be truly free will.
Late response to above hypothesis.
I guess if you are going to insist on free will you should wrap it in protective armor against any insinuation that it, as a derivative of physical things, isn't subject to physical constraints. The only problem with that is there is no justifiable rational for insisting mindful be real. To suggest it is responsive to cause and effect when even determined things aren't caused is the height of being disingenuous. Inventions all the way down the rabbit hole.
There are three distinct types of causal mechanisms: physical, biological, and rational. All three are founded upon a physical infrastructure. However, each operates differently, according to unique deterministic rules. Matter organized differently can behave differently. An automobile operates differently from a microwave oven. Oxygen and Hydrogen remain gases until their temperature is a few thousand degrees below zero, but when organized into molecules of H2O they become a liquid that we can drink at room temperature.
Inanimate matter behaves "passively" in response to physical forces. A bowling ball placed on a slope will always roll downhill, its behavior governed by the force of gravity.
Living organisms behave "purposefully" due to biological drives to survive, thrive, and reproduce. A squirrel placed on that same slope may go up, down, or any other direction where he hopes to find his next acorn. While he is still affected by gravity, he is not governed by it.
Intelligent species can behave "deliberately". They have evolved a neurology capable of imagination, evaluation, and choosing. While still affected by physical forces and biological drives, they are no longer governed by them. For example, we get to choose when, where, and how to eat.
We rescue determinism by assuming that each of these three mechanisms is reliable within its own domain, and that all events are reliably caused by some specific combination of physical, biological, and rational causes.
What I hear you saying is that ... well I'm not sure what I am hearing you say. It sounds like you're dismissing the rational causal mechanism when you said, "there is no justifiable rational for insisting mindful be real". And it also sounds like you're dismissing reliable causation when you said, "even determined things aren't caused".
So, I'm trying to respond by explaining the three causal mechanisms and how determinism is still possible even with several distinct causal mechanisms in play.