Consciousness

[DBT]

You are babbling;

Brain agency;
"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget. "You don't consciously decide to stop at a red light or steer around an obstacle in the road. Once we started looking at the decisions our brains make without our knowledge, we found that they almost always reach the right decision, given the information they had to work with."

''Subjects in this test performed exactly as if their brains were subconsciously gathering information before reaching a confidence threshold, which was then reported to the conscious mind as a definite, sure answer. The subjects, however, were never aware of the complex computations going on, instead they simply "realized" suddenly that the dots were moving in one direction or another. The characteristics of the underlying computation fit with Pouget's extensive earlier work that suggested the human brain is wired naturally to perform calculations of this kind.''

 

[fromderinside]

As wiill you when you can introduce us to a physical consciousness.

You know that when you will your arm to move you do "something" in your mind to move it.

And you know when you don't do that "something" the arm does not move.

The question is: What exactly are you doing to get that arm to move?

Pretending the brain for some unknown reason just moves it is absurd.

It is a claim that can't be supported with any evidence.

Your post is exactly why I suggest you solve cause problem first.

As it stands I put cause at motor cortex. You have offered nothing.

 

[untermensche]

You know that when you will your arm to move you do "something" in your mind to move it.

And you know when you don't do that "something" the arm does not move.

The question is: What exactly are you doing to get that arm to move?

Pretending the brain for some unknown reason just moves it is absurd.

It is a claim that can't be supported with any evidence.

Your post is exactly why I suggest you solve cause problem first.

As it stands I put cause at motor cortex. You have offered nothing.

But why the "something" in the mind as if a command when one wills the arm to move?

And why when this 'something" is not done there is no movement?

Claiming the brain is doing everything is an empty claim. It can't be demonstrated.

It is not supported by evidence.

What is happening in the brain is unknown.

But when I will my arm to move I do "something" in my mind.

That is a fact.

 

[DBT]

Something you are not aware of is doing the something you are aware of; the conscious desire or impulse to move your arm (your example). This is something that has abundant evidence but it is something you cannot accept...because, erm, you don't like it.

 

[untermensche]

Something you are not aware of is doing the something you are aware of; the conscious desire or impulse to move your arm (your example). This is something that has abundant evidence but it is something you cannot accept...because, erm, you don't like it.

Blah blah blah.

I am doing it.

It is not happening to me.

I do "something" in my mind and my arm moves.

That is how it works.

As far as what is actually happening in the brain, that is unknown.

This is not a forced movement like in Libet-type experiments where the subject is forced to make a decision at a certain time. Nothing about those kinds of experiments apply in unforced situations.

 

[DBT]

Except it's not how it works. You just can't face the fact of brain agency. You prefer your own belief, the magic autonomy of consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

Except it's not how it works. You just can't face the fact of brain agency. You prefer your own belief, the magic autonomy of consciousness.

You deny the only evidence we have. Experience.

But since you do not understand the difference between imaginary concepts and real entities that is not surprising.

 

[fromderinside]

Your post is exactly why I suggest you solve cause problem first.

As it stands I put cause at motor cortex. You have offered nothing.

But when I will my arm to move I do "something" in my mind.

That is a fact.

Baseless and factless.

Cue "When you wish upon a star".

When the arm humunculus of the motor cortex is stimulated the arm moves is both a fact and evidence of a causal relation.

Your statements are neither.

You thinking you are commanding something that took place before you consciously thought it is evidence of nothing. In fact, all available evidence contradicts your statements.

Dissolve facts to black. Cue "When you wish upon a Star".

 

[untermensche]

But when I will my arm to move I do "something" in my mind.

That is a fact.

Baseless and factless.

Cue "When you wish upon a star".

When the arm humunculus of the motor cortex is stimulated the arm moves is both a fact and evidence of a causal relation.

Your statements are neither.

You thinking you are commanding something that took place before you consciously thought it is evidence of nothing. In fact, all available evidence contradicts your statements.

Dissolve facts to black. Cue "When you wish upon a Star".

No it is a fact.

When I lift my arm with my will I have to do "something" with my mind to accomplish it.

That is an undeniable fact.

 

[fromderinside]

Well there you go. I denied it and provided substance. All you did was repeat your mantra. RU De-lu-sion-al? Some would have written UR.

Nuff sed. Let's move on.

 

[DBT]

Except it's not how it works. You just can't face the fact of brain agency. You prefer your own belief, the magic autonomy of consciousness.

You deny the only evidence we have. Experience.

But since you do not understand the difference between imaginary concepts and real entities that is not surprising.

Not so. You still fail to consider what happens when the underlying production of conscious experience begins to fail and a person can no longer lift their arm at will, no longer remember what they need to remember, no longer recognize what they once recognized....your subjective experience is only a part of the means of cognition, the end part.

 

[untermensche]

Well there you go. I denied it and provided substance. All you did was repeat your mantra. RU De-lu-sion-al? Some would have written UR.

Nuff sed. Let's move on.

Move on to what?

There is no explanation for what I am doing when I do "something" to move my arm.

We are stuck with the experience and cannot deny it in any way.

 

[DBT]

You are stuck in your own unfounded beliefs and cannot be moved in any way!

 

[untermensche]

You are stuck in your own unfounded beliefs and cannot be moved in any way!

Until an explanation actually exists we are stuck with experience.

But it is not as easy to move away from as some imagine.

It takes a real explanation of brain activity and what consciousness actually is in terms of brain activity.

Right now we have tiny bits of unconnected data. No understanding.

And a lot of people placing their prejudices that the brain does everything and consciousness can do nothing into the void.

 

[DBT]

You still like to pretend that because not everything is understood that nothing is understood, or that there is no evidence to support what is understood; brain agency. You play the ''we know nothing'' card so well that you make a good impression of Sargent Schultz.

 

[fromderinside]

Well there you go. I denied it and provided substance. All you did was repeat your mantra. RU De-lu-sion-al? Some would have written UR.

Nuff sed. Let's move on.

Move on to what?

There is no explanation for what I am doing when I do "something" to move my arm.

We are stuck with the experience and cannot deny it in any way.

It is well demonstrated that consciousness follows activity of which it is conscious. So if consciousness is to determine it must time travel.

I'm not the one in denile or on de nile.

 

[George S]

Well there you go. I denied it and provided substance. All you did was repeat your mantra. RU De-lu-sion-al? Some would have written UR.

Nuff sed. Let's move on.

Move on to what?

There is no explanation for what I am doing when I do "something" to move my arm.

We are stuck with the experience and cannot deny it in any way.

Thought --> Action. My will being done.

That is an explanation at a high level. There is built-in neurology which converts ideas as to the disposition of the body parts into that configuration. It operates reflex-like in that the details are unconscious.

Everything you do by an act of will involves a body part. It is the "doing" part of "my will be done."
"

There is no explanation for what I am doing when I do "something" to move my arm.

The explanation is that certain thoughts cause action of body parts.

 

[untermensche]

There is no explanation for what I am doing when I do "something" to move my arm.

The explanation is that certain thoughts cause action of body parts.

I have no idea what it is. A mental order.

But for the arm to move I have to do "something".

It doesn't just move on it's own.

 

[George S]

The explanation is that certain thoughts cause action of body parts.

I have no idea what it is. A mental order.

But for the arm to move I have to do "something".

It doesn't just move on it's own.

And that 'do' is a thought.

 

[fromderinside]

Under what conditions does one move one's arm. Usually its part of something more than the arm moving. I see the tennis ball coming off the racket of my opponent, Is that the moment in which I decide to move my arm, or is after I hit the ball toward the opponent to which he later hits the ball which I see that I decide I'm gong to move my arm in preparation of hitting the opponent's return back, or,. .....

The problem is with cause relating to decision to act. Rather than going through this little charade I choose to see humans as a machine doing work, playing tennis, which requires repeated arm movements and repeated decisions about how one movers arm to hit the ball or serve the ball.

Generally when one is conscious one is conscious of that has just been done and in the processes of preparing what to do as a consequence to that. Unfortunately the human works best if it is continuous and takes advantages of the reflexes available so deciding plays little role because one knows te play afoot which means much reaction is going to take place with a few changes to correct or change in response to changes in conditions. Of course this is part of a process which already has many components built in so if there is a choice it is among what has already being prepared as part of previously rehearsed scenarios. So what is cause and effect. What is choice. what is it of which one is conscious.