Consciousness

[untermensche]

None of this is evidence or argument.

Wasn't meant to be.

I'm developing triggers to get you to repeat your mantra reflex.

If a position is honest and thought out it is consistent.

Repeating a consistent position is just a form of rationality, not a reflex.

 

[fromderinside]

reflex!

 

[untermensche]

reflex!

You can call being rational a reflex all you want but it is an empty worthless claim you can demonstrate in no way.

It seems it has become your last resort though.

Merely making worthless claims in the face of argument.

And most likely the sentences here have never been seen in this exact order before.

Something never seen before cannot rationally be called a reflex.

 

[untermensche]

How what system as a whole works?

What system are you talking about?

At this stage, why would you even need to ask? Why feign incomprehension? Obviously the 'system' is a reference to the Central nervous system, CNS, and the brain as its information processor. The collection of lobe and region functions, sense, etc.

You have gone off the rails.

Working systems are subsystems of the CNS. The visual system is a specific subsystem designed to create the visual experience FOR CONSCIOUSNESS, not for the brain.

So Consciousness itself in all its aspects is a subsystem too.

A subsystem you can identify in no way.

You know absolutely nothing about the subsystems responsible for consciousness. You can't identify them in any way.

Another false claim. I know that the function of the senses is to gather information in the form of light in order to enable visual imagery, pressure waves as information for hearing, etc, visual cortex, auditory cortex processing, memory integration and so on....this is not ''nothing'' in terms of the kind of systems involved in the makeup of our conscious experience.

Yes and the systems responsible for consciousness create consciousness.

Systems you can identify in no way beyond the worthless "central nervous system".

And at the end of the day I can move my arm at will and you don't understand one bit of the experience.

 

[fromderinside]

reflex!

You can call being rational a reflex all you want but it is an empty worthless claim you can demonstrate in no way.

It seems it has become your last resort though.

Merely making worthless claims in the face of argument.

And most likely the sentences here have never been seen in this exact order before.

Something never seen before cannot rationally be called a reflex.

You just put up a mirror on yourself.

Look at what you wrote to which I responded reflex.

If a position is honest and thought out it is consistent.

Repeating a consistent position is just a form of rationality, not a reflex.

There is no evidence your position is either honest or thought out.

Repeating a consistent unthought out dishonest position is a reflex.

The unthought out part is obvious. That it is dishonest comes from your failure to address the problem which brought on my comment 'reflex'.

 

[untermensche]

There is no evidence your position is either honest or thought out.

The honest account of experience is that I do "something" to move the arm.

And if I do not do this "something" the arm does not just move on its own.

The dishonesty is denying this.

 

[fromderinside]

Nope. Stuff arrives that requires reaction such as raising your arm. your arm raises. You didn't do something. Something was done to you leading to the inevitable reaction.

The dishonesty is denying the direction of energy flow. Humans operate after the fact, we are reactive.

Instance. I am old. I must go to the bathroom often. My heart and body are weak. After I sit on the commode I must push with my arms (lift them) to regain my feet else I'll remain fixed on the commode. I was forced to make a deposit, i was forced to sit, I was forced to use my arms to regain my feet. Where is the doing something to act on the world?

Get it. We don't act on the world it acts on us but because we evolved we are able to react to most things.

Humans are not the shining city on the hill. Humans are the garbage dump where things decay more rapidly. Moving energy from one state to make things better in a second state has the effect of lowering the effective energy of the whole system. That's us.

 

[untermensche]

Nope. Stuff arrives that requires reaction such as raising your arm. your arm raises. You didn't do something. Something was done to you leading to the inevitable reaction.

This is pure fantasy. Pure fabrication.

All we know for certain is we must do "something" to move the arm.

Why we decide to move it is beyond our understandings.

 

[fromderinside]

Humans, because we are living, need stuff to continue living. Humans being social animals need social knowledge to operate,

Do you see anything in those two true statements that give humans the ability to action anything. I don't.

Both of those statements are actually easy to v=convert into energy flow diagrams. Hint. Energy isn't flowing from us. We are slaves to the requirements of our forms of energy that we have to beg, if you will, for enough energy to continue living and operating a in a social system.

We may today's top predator, but, other systems determine whether we'll even be here tomorrow.

Just to be clear you haven't contributed a thing to this discussion beyond what you now have written over a dozen times without justification.

Put simply, it's not about us.

 

[bilby]

There is no evidence your position is either honest or thought out.

The honest account of experience is that I do "something" to move the arm.

And if I do not do this "something" the arm does not just move on its own.

The dishonesty is denying this.

Correlation is not causation. The neuroscience says that the causality is the reverse of what you think it is - the experience of consciously willing to move your arm is caused by the brain's decision to do so. The decision precedes, and causes, the conscious will.

This is highly counterintuitive, and rather disconcerting; But experiments in the real world show that it is nevertheless the case. Lots of reality is like that - that's why we need to use the scientific method, rather than just assuming that whatever feels like the right answer must be the right answer.

You have very effectively fooled yourself into the belief that the will to move causes the movement, and have gone from there to an incorrect conclusion that dualism is correct - but you are wrong about the fundamental premise, and no amount of denial - not even 2,400 posts worth - will make you right, nor support your false conclusions derived from that initial false premise.

 

[untermensche]

The honest account of experience is that I do "something" to move the arm.

And if I do not do this "something" the arm does not just move on its own.

The dishonesty is denying this.

Correlation is not causation. The neuroscience says that the causality is the reverse of what you think it is - the experience of consciously willing to move your arm is caused by the brain's decision to do so. The decision precedes, and causes, the conscious will.

At least you are honest and admit this is experience. The experience is we do "something" THEN the arm moves. Correlation. Sure. Happens every time.

But we have no correlation to anything else besides a claim.

We have no understanding how a brain could decide something like that.

So all we have is experience on one side and a bunch of questions on the other.

That is my position in a nutshell.

 

[DBT]

Wasn't meant to be.

I'm developing triggers to get you to repeat your mantra reflex.

If a position is honest and thought out it is consistent.

Repeating a consistent position is just a form of rationality, not a reflex.

It's undeniably your mantra reflex. You can't see that because it happens to be your condition. You can't see it objectively. Practically everyone else can.

 

[DBT]

At this stage, why would you even need to ask? Why feign incomprehension? Obviously the 'system' is a reference to the Central nervous system, CNS, and the brain as its information processor. The collection of lobe and region functions, sense, etc.

You have gone off the rails.

Working systems are subsystems of the CNS. The visual system is a specific subsystem designed to create the visual experience FOR CONSCIOUSNESS, not for the brain.

Ahem, your wording skews what I said in favour of your own assertions (deliberately I'd say)....it is the brain that is the central information processor of the CNS, the senses and nerves feed information to the brain so that higher order processing may take place, the senses don't produce conscious representation of sights, sounds, smells, etc, the brain does. Only the brain.

So Consciousness itself in all its aspects is a subsystem too.

Your wording is designed to suggest autonomy of consciousness as a 'sub system' - that is false. There is no consciousness unless the brain is active in that regard.

 

[untermensche]

If a position is honest and thought out it is consistent.

Repeating a consistent position is just a form of rationality, not a reflex.

It's undeniably your mantra reflex. You can't see that because it happens to be your condition. You can't see it objectively. Practically everyone else can.

I'm dealing with two people here.

Saying "everybody" can see something is wishing you had an argument.

It is no mantra to honestly relate experience.

It is religion to claim experience is not really experience.

 

[DBT]

It's undeniably your mantra reflex. You can't see that because it happens to be your condition. You can't see it objectively. Practically everyone else can.

I'm dealing with two people here.

Saying "everybody" can see something is wishing you had an argument.

It is no mantra to honestly relate experience.

It is religion to claim experience is not really experience.

A mantra is a word, sentence or sound being repeated as an aid to concentration, in your case used as a reinforcement or affirmation of your beliefs and assertion...which you repeat just like a mantra.

It's a mantra.

 

[untermensche]

I'm dealing with two people here.

Saying "everybody" can see something is wishing you had an argument.

It is no mantra to honestly relate experience.

It is religion to claim experience is not really experience.

A mantra is a word, sentence or sound being repeated as an aid to concentration, in your case used as a reinforcement or affirmation of your beliefs and assertion...which you repeat just like a mantra.

It's a mantra.

So you have been reduced to absurd claims you can't support.

You have given up actually trying to demonstrate your positions.

The truth is I can do "something" with my mind to move my arm.

Saying it is some elaborate trick is unsupported pretend knowledge.

 

[DBT]

You are funny, you project all of your own flaws and fallacies onto your opponent in the vain hope of maintaining an argument you lost at the very beginning.

 

[untermensche]

You are funny, you project all of your own flaws and fallacies onto your opponent in the vain hope of maintaining an argument you lost at the very beginning.

You have nothing but pretend knowledge. No real knowledge.

You don't have the slightest clue what happens when I decide to move my arm. You have no understanding of intention or willed movement.

You merely have ignorance and the behaviors of a juvenile when they are frustrated.

 

[Juma]

You are funny, you project all of your own flaws and fallacies onto your opponent in the vain hope of maintaining an argument you lost at the very beginning.

You have nothing but pretend knowledge. No real knowledge.

You don't have the slightest clue what happens when I decide to move my arm. You have no understanding of intention or willed movement.

You merely have ignorance and the behaviors of a juvenile when they are frustrated.

You're brain is on repeat.
Time to reset.

 

[untermensche]

You have nothing but pretend knowledge. No real knowledge.

You don't have the slightest clue what happens when I decide to move my arm. You have no understanding of intention or willed movement.

You merely have ignorance and the behaviors of a juvenile when they are frustrated.

You're brain is on repeat.
Time to reset.

I will change when people are honest.

But those who claim to understand intention are liars.

All we know is the experience of our intentions. And the experience is not one of being forced to do anything.